Subject: SMML30/4/98VOL165 shipmodels@wr.com.au ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Spanish Cruisers, Grom Rails, Fast Minelayers, Floquil, Etc. 2: 1/1200 Boats and Complaints 3: Re: A Hypothetical Prinz Eugen? 4: Re: A Hypothetical Prinz Eugen 5: Re: 1/1200 sailing ships 6: Elastic rigging 7: Re: A Hypothetical Prinz Eugen? 8: Building "seamless" decks. 9: Re: RN Warships - 50s & 60s 10: Re: RN Deck Colours 50s and 60s 11: IJN ship color reference 12: Re: Hypothetical Prinz Eugen? 13: DIY Photoetch (2) 14: More Iron Duke questions ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS & ANNOUNCEMENTS INDEX 1: **NEW** More Accessories from White Ensign Models ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Sanartjam Subject: Re: Spanish Cruisers, Grom Rails, Fast Minelayers, Floquil, Etc. Hi Listmembers, Sorry to take so long to reply to Javier's question, but I've been out for a week and am just catching up. The German 1/1250 shipmodel maker Argonaut made a number of models of Spanish warships of the Civil War - World War II period, including the light cruisers I mentioned (Galicia, Almirante Cervera, and Miguel de Cervantes), as well as the more famous ships Canarias and Baleares. The quality is pretty good, though not quite up to the benchmark standard of Neptun-Navis. I don't know if the models of the Spanish ships are still being made, but you can check with Bill Gruner at Pacific Front Hobbies, who is starting to get Argonaut models, or with some of the European sources, such as Wiedling and Christian Schmidt (if you need addresses or telephone numbers let me know). If you want to get the models used, you could try Helmut Just in Switzerland or Dave Willcocks in England (again, if you need contact information, just let me know). I noticed that there was a query about doing the two-bar railing on the 1/400 Grom; I was planning on using the 2-bar railing from the Gold Medal Models 1/400 set, though I don't know if there's enough in one set to do the entire model. I hope the gentleman working on the Grom is having better luck with the fit of the decks onto or into the hull than I've had so far.... I join John Snyder's comments about colors, especially wanting to have an accurate starting point for the color you want to use. I want to have at least a reasonably accurate starting point for a color I want to use; for me, it doesn't have to be a perfect match, but certainly the closer the better. I realize that not everyone likes the British Abdiel-class fast minelayers as much as I do (can't figure out why...), but those who do like them might be interested to know that some really excellent (and I think formerly unpublished) photographs of various members of the class (Abdiel, Latona, Welshman, and Manxman) can be had from the Imperial War Museum in London and the National Maritime Museum in Greenwich, England (the photographs are at Woolwich Arsenal but you order them from the NMM in Greenwich). If anyone is interested, I can give you some negative numbers and the contact information. Art Nicholson ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Suvoroff Subject: 1/1200 Boats and Complaints In reply to those who have suggested resin casting these small boats, is it difficult to get the resin to fill the small cavities in the mold, (for this project, the thwarts)? This is the major problem I found with the lead casting. My masters were not great but I believe I could make them better with more patience and practice. Right now my modeling is limited by two major obstacles, 1) the size of an object I can hold and manupulate (those 6" gun shields are just hell) and 2) research materials. Profile views of Victorian warships are not hard to find, though often lacking in detail, but plan views are much worse. And of course French warships are more difficult than English ones. There are commercially available plans for La Hoche (looking more like a spaceship than a warship) and Charlemagne, but as far as I know that is it. Yours, James D. Gray ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: James Corley Subject: Re: A Hypothetical Prinz Eugen? >> I have often wondered that if World War II had gone another year would the US Navy have used the Prinz Eugen as a ship in the battle in the Pacific. The reason that I ask this is that I am toying around with the idea of making up the Prinz Eugen in late 1945 US Navy colors. Does anybody have a crystal ball on what the Prinz Eugen might have looked like both in how she would be painted and how she would be reequipped, i.e. guns, radar, etc., etc. << I don't know if she could have been refitted to see service in late 45, but certainly would have been ready in time for the invasion of Honshu-Operation Olympic. I would guess that she'd have as many 40mm quads as she could hold. As for the particulars I would guess these replacements: 4 203mm twin turrets.... 4 Mk16Mod0 6"/47 triple turrets (CL mount for weight reasons - 175tons vs 450 tons....allows more weight for AAA) 6 105mm twin turrets..... 6 Mk32 twin 5"/38 found on late USN CA/CLs 6 37mm twin mounts.... 6 Mk 2 40mm quad removal of 4 triple TT, aircraft hangar and catapult, 20mm guns....replacement of these with 40mm mounts. removal of 2 boat cranes and replacement with a boom crane mounted to maimast. shortening of mainmast to mount "new" SR-2 with the standard SK-2 mounted on the tower. I might even want additional 5"/38s instead of the two upper 8'/6" turrets. Either platorm could have been enlarged slightly to accomodate 2 turrets per spot for a total of 10. Just my thoughts, too bad most of these items are hard to find in 1/400! I might want to try this on the new ISW PRINZ EUGEN kit in 1/350, but it'd be too much of a waste. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Jeff Herne" Subject: Re: A Hypothetical Prinz Eugen Interesting concept. I don't believe the US Navy would have used the Eugen. The war in the Pacific in 1945 was predominately a carrier-based air war, and the Eugen was not especially suited to the tasks of providing effective AA protection for herself, much less the fleet. The USN also had a large number of ships at the time, the addition of one cruiser would have been negligable. BUT...since this hypothetical....she would have wore either Ms.22 or Ms 21, dazzles were out by war's end. She would have carried the newer USN grays instead of the purple-grays used earlier. All of the shades were various shades of true gray, a black and white mixture. You can see the late paint chips on Warship. She no doubt would have been fitted with 40mm and 20mm, Mk 37 fire control directors, probably SK-2 or SR, & SG radars, and an ECM suite...depending on the length of her "refit" she may have had her primary and secondary weapons changed to standard US calibre weapons...I'd like to see pictures of this when it's done.... Jeff Herne Warship - The New Standard http://warship.simplenet.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "Shaya Novak" Subject: Re: 1/1200 sailing ships Naval Base Hobbies 118 E 59th St NY, NY 10022 shaya@erols.com Carries 1/1200 Sailing Ships in pewter from GHQ and CnC. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: keith butterley Subject: Elastic rigging Hi all, My wife got tired of my complaining(crying) over my constant and losing battle with streched sprue, so she brought me home a roll of very thin elastic, probably equivalent to invisible thread in thickness. I love it. It is pobably not proper scale for 1:700 models but I use it anyways. It attaches with a very tiny amount of white glue and sticks immediately. If you are like me, weak of eye and fat of finger, you don't have to worry about working around existing rigging because it gives. Unlike stretched sprue which if you look at it sideways, breaks. So visit your local sewing supply store and give it a try, you might like it. regards, Keith Butterley Ready aye ready ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Duane Fowler Subject: Re: A Hypothetical Prinz Eugen? >> I recently was able to acquire the Heller 1/400 scale Prinz Eugen. As many of you might know, sadly the Prinz Eugen was used as a nuclear test subjectin 1946. I have often wondered that if World War II had gone another year would the US Navy have used the Prinz Eugen as a ship in the battle in the Pacific. The reason that I ask this is that I am toying around with the idea of making up the Prinz Eugen in late 1945 US Navy colors. Does anybody have a crystal ball on what the Prinz Eugen might have looked like both in how she would be painted and how she would be reequipped, i.e. guns, radar, etc., etc. << The USN wasn't big on usurping equipment (unlike battlefield soldiers) do to the problems in obtaining parts and ordinance. However, let's suppose... She probably would have been painted measure 22 as were most capital sips in the Pacific in '45. And she probably would have had 20mm singles and twins, and 40mm doubles and quads mounted an almost every horizontal surface available (perhaps even creating more "hanging" tubs). Kamikazes were the largest threat to surface ships at that time. In fact, do to the lack of ammo for here main guns, she probably would have been used mainly as a large AA platform. Regards, Duane Fowler ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Tony Edwards Subject: Building "seamless" decks. >> Getting ready to build Tamiya KGV. Need advice on assembling deck sections. How can I eliminate seams without destroying plank detail? Any and all suggestions will be greatly appreciated. << Having built this wonderfully "ugly" ship, all I can say is good luck... the way I got around losing surface detail was to make sure that there was a decent amount of putty (2 part epoxy putty, not the standard plastic putty which would kill more detail than the sanding), on the surface as a "bead", and placed multiple layers of masking tape down BEFORE filling the gap. It helps constructing the deck as a single piece (which unfortunately necessitates placing the turrets before hand), and filling from beneath, though this is not required, my Musashi was filled from above decks and looks almost as good. Hope this gives you some idea on how to proceed, ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Dave Carter Subject: Re: RN Warships - 50s & 60s Hi Terry, >> and sixties. Two which are now ready for painting are a Type 15 and Type 16 AS frigate conversions. Does anyone have any details of deck colourings for these ships at that time or point me to any refernce material which might help. << Well, all the pics that we have at that time are in black and white. However, we think that green is a pretty safe bet. The deck colour was changed to grey around about 1980, so the Rothesays would have worn this colour in later service. The mix that we have formulated (for Humbrol paints) is as follows for Deck Green (80% 88 + 20% 33): >> Next in line is a 1/600 scale Rothesay class frigate converted from the Airfix Leander but I remember actually walking round one of those on a Navy day years back so I think I can deal with << Cool conversion! I am currently writing a feature on the Falklands vet. HMS Plymouth, which, as you know, is a Rothesay Class frigate, now preserved up at Birkenhead, which will be ready for publication shortly. I appreciate that Hants. is a fair ways away from the museum for you, but if you happen to be passing "the pool", then that and the U-Boat are seriously worth a visit. Cheers Caroline Carter WHITE ENSIGN MODELS http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: HGYL Subject: Re: RN Deck Colours 50s and 60s During the 50s, 60s, and early 70s the decks of RN ships were dark green. Sometimes the forecastle was painted red lead. I seem to recall the waterways on the sides of the upper deck of one type 15 in which I served were unpainted aluminium. In the late 70s/ early 80s decks were changed to the current dark grey. An often overlooked point, when decks were green the spurnwater was painted buff or else was unpainted wood Harold Lincoln ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: JGordon262 Subject: IJN ship color reference In his book, I Was A Kamikaze, author Ryuji Nagatsuka writes about the suicide mission of the superbattleship Musashi. He makes a very interesting reference to the color of IJN ships. He writes, "On October 22, the battleship Musashi was repainted light grey. The other ships were still dark grey and black...Without air cover, the Musashi played the part of a deliberate decoy, for which role she had specifically been repainted, and drew most of the enemy's fire." The reader can assume that the light grey paint job was much more visible from the air than the dark grey or black. I have heard that some prewar IJN ships, mainly destroyers, were black painted, but this reference makes plain that some ships were black in color at least through 1944. Has anybody else heard of black schemed IJN ships in WW2? And why didn't they just paint the Musashi yellow or orange for that matter? JG ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: witsie/ken mckelvy Subject: Re: Hypothetical Prinz Eugen? U.S.N. commissioning the Prinz Eugen? Such things are always fun to think about: plausible re-configurations, etc.; and I don't wish to rain on your game, but this would not have even been considered. The U.S.N. already possessed 14 Baltimores, (although I'm not certain all were commissioned by August '45) and 2 more were scrapped on their slips as the war ended. These vessels were superior to the P.E. already; and two further classes of 8-in. cruisers, Oregon City and Des Moines, were under construction. To convert the P.E. to an acceptable configuration would have amounted to virtually gutting the hull and totally rebuilding her. This would have required more than the year you have projected and to what purpose? A lot of effort for a cruiser that when rebuilt would still be inferior to what was already under construction. If you wish to do this sort of thing, a more plausible area might be to consider what might have been done by either the Italian or German navies if they had managed to gain control of the French fleet. Here there was a need and the changes would not have had to be so drastic. Ken McKelvy ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Ron or Julie Hillsden Subject: DIY Photoetch (2) If I may, I would like to clarify my request for a source of Mylar dry etch film photo resist. I don't know why it's called dry etch, because it's not. What I need is the resist. I have the rest of he process down pat. The aerosol resists sold in North America are clear, so you can't tell if you have an even coat until the etching fails or not (in my case, it fails). The Brits were fortunate in that they could get an aerosol resist which contained a blue dye so they could see the coverage. By time I discovered this, it was no longer being produced. The dry film photo resist is basically a sheet of uncured plastic which can be applied to metal as a resist. When it is 'exposed', it creates a mask for photo etching. It only seems to be available in rolls 12" by 50' in North America. If anyone has a source for smaller lots, please let me know - my great great grandchildren will be working on the left-over 48' if it isn't already obsolete. The process is described at ***NOTE FROM LISTMASTER*** Message published in full - URL not given. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Dave Carter Subject: More Iron Duke questions Hi Ian, The platforms appear in plan view on sheet 3 of the Sambrook Marine Iron Duke plans. Although we have no photographic evidence to confirm that the drawing is accurate the plans do give the impression of having been well researched. It would appear that the platforms on Iron Duke were different to those fitted to the Tiger. They consist of a folding main platform with a cut-out at the rear to allow a slight pitch of the armoured turret roof to project through. There is also a separate smaller square platform fitted on top of the rangefinder which is probably for the aircraft's tail-skid, presumably the pilot had to keep the tail up as soon as he started moving. Cheers, Dave Carter White Ensign Models http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS & ANNOUNCEMENTS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Dave Carter Subject: **NEW** More Accessories from White Ensign Models In today, next in the "Professional" series of model accessories... 1/700 Triple torpedo tubes (x 2 pairs port and starboard) 1.57 pounds 1/700 Radar Lanterns 271/272 (x4) 1.57 pounds In today, from the "Airstrike 700" range 1/700 Skynights (x3) 2.95 pounds 1/700 AEW Gannets (x3) 2.95 pounds 1/700 AEW Skyraiders (x3) 2.95 pounds Shipped post free worldwide.. Coming soon..1/700 Twin Oerlikons/tripods (photoetch).. 25 for 2.51 pounds and IJN AA Weapons set, as requested by Paolo Pizzi and many others... Pacific Front Hobbies will be getting his in shortly for those of you who prefer to deal with Bill for your model supplies. Cheers from Caroline and Dave Bookmark us for regular updates at http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/avenue/xdt22/ FREE WORLDWIDE AIRMAIL SHIPPING. Ask for full paper lists, shipped FREE! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume