Subject: SMML13/06/98VOL209 shipmodels@wr.com.au ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: YAMATO 2: Re: YAMATO 3: Re: Battleship Potemkin & Cruiser Aurora 4: Re: Battleship Potemkin 5: Re: Range Clocks 6: Yamatto.... Arii, Nachimo... 7: Gerber Facility MD 8: Squadron & Signal' U-Boat 9: Re: Range Clocks 10: Re: Range Clocks 11: Re: Yamato wreck 12: Re: Range Clocks 13: Bismarck Swastikas 14: Re: Battleship Potemkin 15: Silver Hill 16: Re: Yamato wreck 17: Re: Yamato wreck 18: Academy vs. Tamiya Bismarck and Tirpitz 19: Re: Yamato wreck 20: New 1/200 Yamato P/E from GMM 21: Re: Potemkin and Aurora ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS & ANNOUNCEMENTS INDEX 1: 1/350 Tamiya USS New Jersey FS/T 2: Model Kits for Sale 3: Survey Late arrivals and Subject Lines ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: thunder.bearr@juno.com (Robert Vancel) Subject: Re: YAMATO >> (The following dates/facts from Skulski's Anatomy) Yamato met her demise 14:23hrs on 7 April 1945, after a barage of 10 torpedo and 8 bombs from U.S.Forces, which caused severe listing, and a gigantic explosion of on-board ammunition that broke the hull. There are three theories on the explosion: 1 : Projectile fuzes struck the deck as the ship rolled. 2 : Fire aft ignited magazines 3 : Yosemite Sam blew it to Smithereenies! (Lesser recognised Theory just put forth by my Nephew :-) She sank west of Tanegashima, on a planned course toward Okinawa. The wreck was examined 1 August 1985, and there is a sketch on the last page of Skulski's Anatomy, this sketch has left me craving MUCH more info on the wreck, however, other than this sketch, I have been unable to find anything - and If anybody knows anything, or has any idea where Skulski got this info from, I would dearly love to hear from you. << Hi, This is my first posting to the group, so forgive me if I seem out of touch. On the subject of the Yamato, I have heard stories that the Yamato was still seaworthy (although slightly) and that in order to keep her out of the hands of the enemy ( Us ) the crew scuttled her and blew the magazines themselves. Robert ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From : Greg Lee (Listmaster - SMML) Subject : Re: YAMATO Hi Robert, This does sound like a possibilty, the only stick in this theories mud is that this would have been at the expense of 2498 men, and seeing how secretive the Japanese were about their Monster Battlewagon, quiet a possibility? Something to think about. Greg (Listmaster - SMML) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: robin Subject: Re: Battleship Potemkin & Cruiser Aurora >> The Imperial Russian battleship Potemkin was originally laid down as "Kniaz Potemkin Tavricheskey" in 1898, and eventually became the "star" of a mutiny and and an early film by S.Eisenstein. It was re-commissioned in 1905 with the name "Panteleimon", under influence of the Russian Orthodox Church, but was re-named to "Potemkin" by the Kerensky government on 13 April, 1917 and finally as "Boretz za svobodou" by the new Bolshevik revolutionary government in October, 1917. The Potemkin was a one-ship class. It is still available as a 1/400 plastic model. Her story is well outlined, with photographs, in V.M. Tomitch's book "Warships of the Imperial Russian Navy Vol. 1 - Battleships", which is still available. << Thank you for the info, I have looked up the ship & now know what it looks like, & for anyone else who is interested, there is a great site with many pictures of russian warships, both old & modern, the site is: http://invet.obninsk.ru/nether/navy/ Check it out & put it in your favourites.... i did. >> I am sure several will respond on this one, but, just in case..... Potemkin and Aurora are two separate kits. Potemkin is a battleship and Aurora is a armored cruiser. Both played a significant role in the Russian Revolution, which is why the Soviets commissioned Heller to make the kits. Potemkin is as she appeared in about 1917, while the Aurora is a model of the ship as she exists today as a museum ship. Aurora has been modernized over the years, so it requires a "conversion" to make her compatible with the Potemkin. Both are very good kits. << Daniel is correct in this, I have the Aurora model by Heller (an early Heller boxed kit, 1/400), its a fine crisp kit, & well detailed, but photo etch would enhance it further, i have also heard of a russian company buying the moulds for it & issuing it in bags... anyone have more detail about this? also there is/was a model company called Aurora, i am not sure if they had the moulds for these ships though... >> Heller made kits of the Battleship Potemkin of fame in the classic Eisenstein film. I have two of them and they are quite good kits, although a bit of photo-etch would bring them up. Heller also made a kit of the Protected Cruiser Aurora, of fame as the ship which fired on the Winter Palace, thus beginning the October Revolution in 1917. This builds up as a fine kit, comparable to the Revell Emden. << I agree 100%, i have the Emden as well, pity its in 1/350, the aurora is in the same quality as todays ship models, anybody know is Heller is going to reissue it?? Great work & happy 200th too, Greg.... Enough from me now..... Cheers & 73's for now, ordrazz Web Page: www.ne.com.au/~ordrazz/Welcome.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: JVT7532@aol.com Subject: Re: Battleship Potemkin Just wondering about the Heller kit of the "Battleship Potemkin," does anyone know of a good place to purchase this kit, meaning fair price and availability? Just how accurate is the kit and are there any after market items to help her become more accurate? Thanks Jon ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Bruce Ross-QBR000 Subject: Re: Range Clocks >> Alright, I'm finally going to risk looking stupid and ask a question: Some battleships, particularly US ones, had what looks to be a very large clock near the top of their tripod/cage masts. Is it a clock? What was it used for? Why have it (I think watches were around back then)? Do the model makers supply it with kits? << John the answer is that those clocks where called range clocks. They were marked off in thousands of yards and allowed the ships fore and aft in the battleline to determine the range that the ship was firing at. In addition, if you look at pictures you should notice that there is a dark band painted around the base of the foremost and aftmost main turrets. This was so the ships fore and aft could also tell the bearing that was being fired on. Regards, Bruce ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: John Prall Subject: Yamatto.... Arii, Nachimo... All this talk of the Yamatto has got me more interested in getting my monster built.... Yes I do have the Nichimo kit... Acctually one built that my father did several years ago when we just got started in the hobby, so as you can probelly figure it does exactly stand out as the most beautiful ship in the fleet!! We lso have a second one (alos my fathers) that he is going to build and do properly. We have the GMM set so I imagine it should come out quite a bit better... My question is how detailed is the Arii 1/250 scale kit in comparison, and are there photoeach parts that I can get for the boat in that odd scale? Thanks for any info... John Prall jrp0315@rit.edu ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: BEN8800@aol.com Subject: Gerber Facility MD >> The only one I've actually seen is the one the Smithsonian Institute has stashed away in one of its warehouses at Silver Hill, Maryland. They open the facility to the general public once a year but also offer tours if arrangements are made in advance. Anyone interested can probably find out more from their Web site. << Mike, For your info, the Garber facility at Silver hHill in Suitland Subject: Squadron & Signal' U-Boat Hi: Is it the book "U-Boats" from Squadron & Signal a good reference on types VII and IX ? What else is there about U-Boats ? Thanks, Cataldo Torelli Madrid, Spain ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: Range Clocks John Percy asked (and there are no stupid questions on this list, John) about those clocks on US battleship masts. As Greg pointed out, they were range clocks. He didn't, however, answer why they were there. Back when prevailing theory still held that major surface engagements would be fought by the Battle Line (i.e., the whole battleship force sailing in line astern), the range clocks were mounted facing forward on the foremast, and facing aft on the mainmast. By this visual means (remember, this is before general use of short-range radio known as Talk Between Ships), the individual ships could pass the information down the line as to the range to the target (which is what the setting of the clocks' hands would indicate). Further, one turret forward and one turret aft (usually the superfiring--or upper--turret) would have a series of bearing marks painted on it, so that ships ahead and behind could see the bearing to the target as well as the range. John Snyder **NOTE FROM LISTMASTER** I got so excited about being able to answer the question, I forgot to answer it ;-) Arent I a silly listmaster! Thanks for coming to the rescue John. Greg ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Duane Fowler Subject: Re: Range Clocks >> Some battleships, particularly US ones, had what looks to be a very large clock near the top of their tripod/cage masts. Is it a clock? What was it used for? Why have it (I think watches were around back then)? Do the model makers supply it with kits? << The dial you mentioned was the range clock designating the range to the target. In the days before radar and quick communications, it was used to inform the other units in a battle group (and even other turrets on the same ship) distance for firing. It was a lot faster than a code key. The last ones disapeared around the beginning WWII. Some of the BBs at Pearl Harbor still had them. Regards, Duane Fowler ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Duane Fowler Subject: Re: Yamato wreck >> Does anyone know where the Japanese Battleship Yamato sank in WW2? Has it ever been found? And what sank it?? << The Yamato sank about 200 mile north of Okinawa on its last suicide mission: Ichi Ten-go. It was suposed to sail into the middle of the allied fleet, blast away at everything, and then beach itself and be used a shore defence battery. Unfortunately for the crew of the Yamato it was not provided with any air cover and sunk by US carrier based aircraft. Since the Japanese navy did not put a high value on surviveability, there were no lifeboats and a minimum number of rafts. Of a crew of over 2000, only about 300 survived. The hulk has been found by a Japanese search and is in three main pieces on the ocean floor. When it capsized, one or more of the main magazenes exploded which ripped what was left apart. The bow and stern are recognizable as are the turrets and parts of the pagoda. Most of the rest of the ship is just a pile of iron on the bottom. There is a short description as well as a drawing in the back ot the "Anatomy of the Ship: Yamato" by J. Skulski. Regards, Duane Fowler ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Rick Heinbaugh" Subject: Re: Range Clocks Those clocks (I think they had ten marks vice twelve) were for indicating the range the main guns were set at for the information of other ships in the Battle Line. Therefore, they were used in battlships only, I think. I think they started to show up in 1920 or so and went out of favor around 1930. They were complemented by markings on the sides of the base of the turrets that allowed an observer to see what bearing the turret was trained at. The bearing markings disappeared much earlier than the range clocks, indicating to me the time whem visual indications were no longer used. I'd guess the range clocks were left on the mast until the next overhaul. This is from memory, since my reference library is in shipment, so if I got this wrong, please have mercy. Rick ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Duane Fowler Subject: Bismarck Swastikas >> Another point of interest... Robert Ballards wreck photographs also show that there were swastikas painted on deck in both the bow and the stern areas (this I have not seen in any reference at all) << The stern swastika on the Bismark appeared about the time Hitler visited the ship in early May and probably were painted on just for him. There are a couple of photos of him on board in Ballard's book including one where he is walking on the swastika. It looks quite freshly painted and glossy. In earlier photographs of the ship's stern, it is not there. It is, however, plainly evident in the underwater photographs. Regards, Duane Fowler ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: BChaucer@ix.netcom.com Subject: Re: Battleship Potemkin >> Heller made kits of the Battleship Potemkin of fame in the classic Eisenstein film. I have two of them and they are quite good kits, although a bit of photo-etch would bring them up. Heller also made a kit of the Protected Cruiser Aurora, of fame as the ship which fired on the Winter Palace, thus beginning the October Revolution in 1917. This builds up as a fine kit, comparable to the Revell Emden. << I have both the Heller Potemkin and Aurora kits. Is there any photoetch for them? Or am I consigned to finding useful bits on other sets?? Regards, Bradford Chaucer ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: SantMin@aol.com Subject: Re: Silver Hill >> I recall reading somewhere that this OS2U was actually a fiberglass mockup. Maybe it was acquired by one of the other battleship memorials. I think the Naval Aviation Museum in Pensacola has a real Kingfisher in its collection. The only one I've actually seen is the one the Smithsonian Institute has stashed away in one of its warehouses at Silver Hill, Maryland. They open the facility to the general public once a year but also offer tours if arrangements are made in advance. Anyone interested can probably find out more from their Web site. << The last time I was at Siver Hill I was told that the OS2U there is the one that was on MASSACHUSETTS, it had fibreglass floats on it and they were being replaced by real ones. By the way, Silver Hill is closing down in preparation of a move out to Dules. Bob Santos ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Yamato wreck >> Does anyone know where the Japanese Battleship Yamato sank in WW2? Has it ever been found? And what sank it?? << The Anatomy of the Ship series Yamato has a detailed diagram of how the Yamato sits on the bottom. I belive it was declared a historical site in Japan. Rusty White Flagship Models ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: Paolo Pizzi Subject: Re: Yamato wreck The wreck of battleship Yamato was discovered in 1980 by chance by a Japanese oceanographic expedition while researching underwater seismic activity South of Kyushu island. I have a documentary produced by NHK on the event (it' in Japanese, no subtitles) but don't hold your breath beacuse you're not going to see much of the battleship. The Japanese government has never disclosed the position of the wreck. Every year, on the day the Yamato was sunk, the JMSDF organizes a cruise for veterans and families onboard one of their auxiliaries and after a brief religious ceremony, they lay a wreath on the spot where the battleship sank. All participants are searched for compasses, GPS and similar equipment before boarding and the ship deliberately takes "evasive actions" in order to make guessing the position impossible. Paolo Pizzi http://navismagazine.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: "Anne W. Davis" Subject: Academy vs. Tamiya Bismarck and Tirpitz I have seen that both Academy and Tamiya produce models of the Bismarck and Tirpitz. What are the differences, if any, between the two kits? I am looking to start a project (Tirpitz, probably) and have ordered the new USNI book "Battleships of the Bismarck Class" as a reference base. Also, would anyone have a kit of either ship to part with preferably in trade for the Tam. USS New Jersey? Thank you for your help. Kenn Davis ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: Senkan@aol.com Subject: Re: Yamato wreck >> She sank west of Tanegashima, on a planned course toward Okinawa. The wreck was examined 1 August 1985, and there is a sketch on the last page of Skulski's Anatomy, this sketch has left me craving MUCH more info on the wreck, however, other than this sketch, I have been unable to find anything - and If anybody knows anything, or has any idea where Skulski got this info from, I would dearly love to hear from you. << Just in case you didn't know (but I bet you do) I have heard that the Japanese government will not allow people to dive on Yamato. They are looking at it like it is a burial site. I myself an a big Yamato-aholic and would love to see Mr. Ballard go down and photograph her. Maybe he will one day go to Leyte and look for the ships sunk there and find Musashi. Well, my dream of seeing the Yamato continues.... Ken Hamilton ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From : Greg Lee (Listmaster - SMML) Subject : New 1/200 Yamato P/E from GMM Howdy, Well, we have struck a chord haven't we? - we are just a bunch of Closet Yamato-Holics at heart:-) Great - Isn't It:-)))))) Anyways, My question is (Apart from where the heck is my kit Mr Hobbylink?) has anybody seen GMM's new updated P/E sheet for this? Does it contain all the necessary hatches etc.. to bring this Monster kit closer to the Truth? Greg (Listmaster - SMML) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: RCClem@aol.com Subject: Re: Potemkin and Aurora I have both the Potemkin, by Ogonek (spelling?) and the Heller Aurora. Both are 1/400 scale. This puts the Potemkin at about 11.5" long (370.7 ft) and the Aurora at 12" long (413 ft). Both will make very nice displays, using an appropriate PE kit and doing some mod work. The 1905 paint scheme for the Potemkin is very interesting (black, white, amber, etc.). The paint scheme for the Aurora during WW 1 was a shade of gray. Does anyone know the paint scheme she had during the Russo-Japanese War? Probably gray. To dissuade me from adding to my modeling backlog, I have temporarily tacked their hulls together and mounted them on their stands on the shelf above my monitor. I've got more ships "on the ways" than the Kaiser Shipyard did 55 years ago! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS & ANNOUNCEMENTS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Anne W. Davis" Subject: 1/350 Tamiya USS New Jersey FS/T I have a 1/350 Tamiya USS New Jersey that I would like to sell or trade. I am interested in the Tamiya WWII 1/350 ship kits and WWII 1/350 resin kits (esp. Sumner/Gearing destroyers). Let me know if you are interested. Thanks, Kenn Davis ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Graham Holmes Subject: Model Kits for Sale Stopped in my local hobby shop on my way home, and they were delighted to show me a new Russian Kit. It is made by Hilek( I think, as the logo is quite confused) and is a old(WWI?) torpedo boat. It has a rounded deck with two faired-in tubes. It is an injection kit with white metal and photo etch parts. It is quite exquisite and while not my interest, I promised to alert this list in case anyone is interested. Price is US$21.95 plus postage. If anyone is tempted email me direct at: mailto:grholmes@freenet.columbus.oh.us BTW, I missed my interests off the survey. They are RN ships all scales 1942-1970, and USN ships 1944-1950. Graham Holmes ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Greg Lee (Listmaster - SMML) Subject: Survey Late arrivals and Subject Lines Well, The survey was a HUGE success, and for those of you who flooded my mailbox with "LATE" postings this morning - Too Late! But I will archive them and Include them in the next survey, Whenever that will be, may'be annually? And Just a last minute plea to those of you who are still not including subject lines, *"PLEA"*:-) As you can see from tonights list - SMML is HUGE these days, and it takes a long time to bring it together, and when I have to fill in subject lines, it takes just a little bit longer, so help me out if you can - I'd really appreciate it;-) Thanks Greg (Listmaster - SMML) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume