Subject: SMML19/07/98VOL245 Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 20:03:49 +1000 (EST) shipmodels@wr.com.au --------------------------------- Thanks for having SMML at your home, why not stop by our home at: http://warship.simplenet.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Are the rest of unbanished too? 2: Modern Navy Paints? 3: Instructions 4: Re: Sewing the hull 5: Re: Nautilus Models future plans - some requests 6: USS Winslow 7: Re: bending resin 8: A reply re Plans 9: Decal Want List 10: Richelieu & other questions 11: Plans & Completeness; My 2-cents Worth 12: Iron Shipwrights 1/350th battleship Maine 13: USS Oregon 14: Re: Instructions ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: ATTN - Duane Fowler ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Mike Kear Subject: Are the rest of unbanished too? Does the plethora of messages from John Sheridan of Microscale and Burl Burlilngame of Pacific Monograph mean that Caroline and Dave of White Ensign Models, Myself from AFP MOdels and others are no longer banished to the back of the bus? Or is it just that if we want to generate sales, web site traffic or do market research, we have to disguise it as discussion? Or does it depend on how large you are as a business. Microscale being at least 100 times bigger business than mine and much more able to pay for advertising than I am. When I understand what the rules are here, I might consider posting again. I havent posted to this list in months, considering it not worth the effort being dumped down the back of the bus. Cheers, Mike Kear, Webmaster, Task Force 72 http://www.healey.com.au/~mkear/tf72.html AFP Models - 1/72 scale warship fittings, hulls, plans, kits http://www.afp.zip.com.au/models.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Gene Larson Subject: Modern Navy Paints? Christian D'Ambra wrote in SMML 244: >> THE SECRET: Ship color = RLM 63 + about 30% or so Flat Gull Grey. It works. Deck color = RLM 74. << For the ignorant like me what is RLM in reference to paints? Is it in the Model Master line? Gene Larson, Alexandria, Virginia mailto:genenrg@Naut-Res-Guild.org Nautical Research Guild, Inc. http://www.Naut-Res-Guild.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Alberto Rada Subject: Instructions Hi all I would like to refer to Rusty White's last email on this thread, although in the greater context I agree with him that model cottage industry is not what we could call a real money maker, there are some points to be clarified. Although it is true that computers and programs cost a lot of money, they are just an integral part of any business nowadays. How could we otherwise help Bill Gates make a little bit of money? Long before we had computers, we had models and model instructions, what we are talking here is of that essential information that should be included, it is very frustrating to have a model almost completed and don't know how to rig it, even if you have 3 or 4 books in front of you, or not having a clue where exactly this little piece goes, use your best judgement, and find later that you where wrong. In the Aviation WW 1 modeling world we have the Windsock Datafiles by Ray Rimell, where in a single booklet you have all the information you'll ever want on each single plane, tons of photos, several pages of color ones, 3D viewing , color profiles etc. and mind you, this is not the only source. But this is by far not the case of ship modeling, where there is scarcely anything, besides the Anatomy of the Ship series, (that besides being pretty expensive and most of them out of print, they only cover scarcely a handful of subject of our interest) so this blank has to be filled by the manufacturer. Rusty states: >> So the next time you aren't thrilled with the instructions that came with your kit for lack of information or whatever, give the guys a break and a thank you that you have a kit you didn't have to wait for the major manufacturers to produce. << The following are prices taken from some advertisements in the latest Plastic Ship Modelers: Iron Shipwright: HMS Rodney/Nelson $ 475.00 Pre production price HMS Sheffield $ 185.00 DKM Graf Spee $ 215.00 Tom's Modelworks USS Yorktown II $ 415.00, $ 375.00 waterline Steel Navy HMS Dreadnought $ 185.00 HMS Eurylas $ 140.00 HMS Invincible $ 185.00 White Ensign Models HMS Sheffield $264.00 $ 240.00 waterline These are of course all 1/350 and the top of their lines, but we are talking BIG BUCKS here, and for most of us, this is hard worked, earned money, ( very few Ricky Rich's among my fellow modelers, seems we have too important matters and research to spend our time, so very little left to make money ). So we want something back for it, and you have to draw a line to separate bona fide small but professional cottage industries from adventurous amateurs, there are some pretty good examples to aim for. Can't think of a more cottage industry that White Ensign Models, I believe they actually work in a cottage, and their instructions as their models are top of the line. Take Iron Shipwright, that has some wonderful models, and see their response to this thread in Jon Warneke's post, you can see that these guys are really trying hard. Or Rob Mackie's post, that certainly avails the coming HMS Dreadnought. So it is really us that need a break, and next time someone wants to make a poor but happy living out of producing ship models, better put his heart and soul to it. SALUDOS Alberto ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: JGordon262@aol.com Subject: Re: Sewing the hull Alberto wrote: >> Some of the new 1/350 kits coming out, are one piece full hull, now I have my eyes on one or two of them, but would like to present them on their watery element, how can I do this ? I was discouraged from the idea of sewing the hull, by some previous post, that advised against it, on the grounds that it could break. << Sewing the hull is really a lost art that should not be attempted in this day and age. Around the turn of the century, modellers of square rigged wooden ship models employed the technique of sewing the hull, using a modified heavy duty carpet needle and a thread woven from sperm whale intestines, the strongest material available at the time. A glove of thick cowhide, and a pot iron thimble were also required. Assembling these tools would be possible today, with the exception of the thread. Even if you were to substitute kevlar twine, the operation would fail because the art has been lost- a crying shame because sewn hull models are indeed the most beautiful examples in existence. The Ship Model Historian ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: Nautilus Models future plans - some requests As long as you're thinking about improvements for the Revell 80' Elco PT, let me second the need for an improved weapons suite. The kit's 20mm cannon is pretty good and can be well-detailed, but needs the open tripod-type pedestal when moved to the bow; this might best be done in photoetched brass however (Loren, are you listening?). The twin .50s are terrible and need replacement; I'm using Aeromaster(?) white metal .50s, but that will mean fabricating the mounting bracket from Evergreen stock. A good replacement set of twin .50s would be nice; then of course we need the ammo belts, probably in photoetch (Loren, again?). A kit-specific 40mm Bofors single mount would be good; it's possible to rob an Airfix British army kit, but one for the PT would be better. Perhaps the most universally-used and totally unavailable gun used by the PTs was the 37mm aircraft cannon with its distinctive ammo feed; please, someone make this! Then of course one could also include the various rocket launchers, .50 cal. mg single mounts on pedestals, the Thunderbolt 20mm quad turret, depth charges and their simple roll-off racks. Also nice would be extra crew figures, and perhaps a small arms (BAR, Thompson, Springfield, Garand) set. John Snyder ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Alberto Rada Subject: USS Winslow I would thank any one who could come with some plans or views on it, as I have not been able to find much. You see, I also have this model and would very much like to make it, and every now and then it comes out of the shelve, but scarce instructions, the amount of work required to reconstruct all the parts riddle with bubbles and the coarse metal parts, soon deflates my will, and back it goes to the shelve, so it seems to be doomed to stay there, wasn't this what we where talking about ? p.d. Tom, I don't want to be polemic but PLEASE, don't forget without us there would be no resin kit to sell . SALUDOS Alberto ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Burl Burlingame / Pacific Monograph Subject: Re: bending resin >> Ed Grune wrote a great review of his efforts in building the Lone Star Models' USS Winslow @ 1/192. I just received my kit and the two parts of the hull do not match at all. Ed stated that he had to use hot water and pressure to make his hulls match. Ed, Will you please describe in detail how you did this? I don't want my only option to be to return the kit. << Instead of hot water, try your microwave oven. Microwaves heat the resin part from the inside out (hot water does the reverse) so the core warped part is easier to fix. Use SHORT bursts of microwave, maybe 10 seconds at a crack. When the part comes out feeling warm, then it's HOT on the inside. Press it to a flat surface to straighten out the warp. Burl Burlingame Pacific Monograph, 1124 Kahili Street, Kailua HI 96734 A historical interpretation company. Visit our web site at http://www.PacificHistory.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Bradford Chaucer Subject: A reply re Plans >> My two cents on plans, What is enough? What is complete? Modelers are quick to point out the lack of information when reviewing a resin kit. I don't see complaints on the injected kits, does that mean there perfect! I once contacted an individual who had destroyed a kit (injected) with his comments, when ask if he would like to make new corrected masters so we as could release a better kit, that individual was never heard from again. When you have suggestions, corrections, additions or comments why not mark up a set of the kit plans and send them to the manufacture. We all try, some of us may try harder but we could all use your help, not criticism. PLEASE, don't forget without us there would be no resin kit to review. << Me thinks I detect a slight thinning of the epidermis :-) The resin model industry is now just beginning to grow up and is suffering growing pains. While the various comments regarding the problems with instructions were "criticisms" they were gentle criticisms, at least certainly on my part. I think that we all hope that this discussion will result in all resin kit manufacturers seeing ways to improve their product. I think that your suggestion of marking up a set of plans and returning them to the manufacturer is a good one and perhaps I will try it. I have one of your Arizona's, put away at the moment, so I can't even comment on the thoroughness of your instructions, but, for example the IronShipwrights/Commander's Olympia kit was mentioned the other day as an example of paricularly weak instructions. The plans consist of one 8-1/2 by 11 in sheet with outlines of about 20 or so parts referenced to a list identifying them. There are then 2 views, a side and top with most of the parts referenced to location. There is no "map" of the PE fret and with the exception of a tiny sketch of the boarding ladderways, no details on how to fold or work with the PE parts. There is little rigging info, no color info and no other info provided. How does one go about marking up this instruction sheet? Where does one begin? The mark up would almost have to consist of drawing a new and complete set! And by the way lest Ted and Jon begin to feel picked on, Mike West's instructions with his Lone Star Models Civil War subjects are equally if not even more sparse! Now I contrast that with a company "Cottage Industries Models" out of South Carolina, owned and run by Wm Blackmore. He specializes at present in larger, highly detailed models of Civil war subjects like the CSS Hunley, CSS David and USS Keokuk, all 1/32 scale resin all with either partial (the Latter) or full (the former two) interior detail. His instructions are a BOOK! showing every section in detail with all parts shown and details on how to assemble; a real walk through. Now Bill may be engaging in overkill, though it is a welcome change, but surely there is a happy meeting ground somewhere in the middle. BTW his prices are actually almost low considering the quality of his kits, About $80 for the Hunley and David and about $160 for the Keokuk, compared with $125 (I think) for the Olympia. We have always tended to attribute the rather small market for resin kits to their cost, and certainly on average they do cost more than Injection mass market kits. But take a careful look at that market, the days of the $8 kit are long gone! Typical new releases are running in the $30- $50 range on larger scale (1/48)) aircraft and Armor! Larger ship kits (like the 1/350 KGVs etc) are way up there too. The price gap is rapidly narrowing. IMHO a significant factor in the relative sizes of the two markets is the "reputation" that resin kits have as being "difficult," "only for advanced modelers," etc. While resin may be somewhat more difficult to work with, Perhaps! I feel that a significant factor in this "difficult" reputation is the quality of instructions. I am not suggesting that injection kit instructions are perfect or free from error, far from it. However the average injection kit instructions are a far cut above the average resin kit instructions. The resin industry must work to narrow that gap if it is to expand and survive as more than a sideline for a hand full of "advanced hobbiests" who want to make some money at their hobby! And BTW Tom, as to your comment that you don't see complaints about injection kits, I suggest that you are living a sheltered life! Subscribe to the R.M.S. newsgroup. One could fill a book with the messages slamming almost every aspect of just about every new kit (and quite a few older ones). Accurate Minatures, Tamiya, Hasegawa etc get regularly roasted over unclear or incomplete instructions, quality problems, price, errors, omissions, choice of versions and everything else imaginable. At one point, there was considerable discussion over the lack of a pilot relief tube in AM's Avenger kits! Now That's Criticism!. You all are getting off lightly! >> PLEASE, don't forget without us there would be no resin kit to review. << As to your parting comment, "Please, dont forget that _Without US_ there would be no point in manufacturing them! This business is a partnership. One of the things I like about the resin industry is the accessibility of the makers. I can talk to Ted, or Jon or you, and I correspond regularly with Bill Blackmore. I have yet to be invited to tea by Mr Hasegawa. Now I'll sit back and await the flames :-) Regards, Bradford Chaucer ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Rick Heinbaugh" Subject: Decal Want List I would like to second the motion made earlier for deck markings. I would like them for 1/700 ships; I'm sure 1/350 folks would also like them. I realize that these markings (flight deck outlines & targets, VERTREP spot markings in white and weapons train circles in red) are sized and shaped specifically for each ship class. Somebody once told me not to describe a problem without offering a fix... From my active duty days in the Navy, I have a book published by NAVAIR Systems Command which shows drawings of the exact deck markings required for each aviation-capable ship in commission. This was a case of saving an outdated official government publication from the trash can - aviators want their specifications to be exactly up to date. I saved a book that was superseded in 1990, so it has drawings for _every_ ship with markings for a hover spot at that time, along with lighting requirements and level of certification for what can land and what can hover, considering nearby obstructions to spinning rotor blades. To be exceedingly reduntantly repetitve, it shows _every_ ship, all sister ships, whether they were identical to their class or not. I have just moved (the move from h***) and I don't expect my books to arrive for another three weeks or so. But when they do, I will be happy to share individual pages with modelers or just lend the book to any interested decal manufacturer. As far as red circles for weapons training safety circles, SMML _must_ have somebody on active duty who could cite the specification for warning circle required radius. If the decal guys provided complete circles of correct radii, we could cut out what we need. As far as "E"s, I was pretty hapy with what Loren Perry put in his decal sheets. As a Chief Engineer, I had to become _intimately_ familiar with the specifications for the Gold Engineering E and hashmark that went on STEIN when she received her fifth and sixth awards. (Greg Ogilvie, you must have had a piece of winning the 3rd or 4th of STEIN's Engineering Es when you were MPA). I wrote an article for Larry Gertner's now defunct IPMS Special Interest Group ship publication several years ago that detailed colors and locations of those departmental award markings. If anybody is interested, I can provide a copy, when my archived computer disks show up. I wonder if the Royal Navy has a companion specification book for deck markings that would gild the White Ensign Models lily. Overall, I think we modellers should not request manufacturers to re-do any satisfactory products out there; Loren Perry's good stuff need not be duplicated, but Skywave's crummy stuff should certainly be improved upon. I'm sorry this has run so long. I'd be happy to respond to any requests for specific information from what I wrote down from my active days as First LT, responsible for painting and preservation of topside spaces, as well as Engineer Officer. Rick Heinbaugh Bothell, WA, USA ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Malcolm Batchelor" Subject: Richelieu & other questions Yunchi Hsaio asked if anybody had purchased the new Hi-Mold Richelieu. Well I have not purchased the kit, but (if my memory is working), Bill Gruner at Pacific Front Hobbies has it listed as post refit with a heavy AA fit in the update that I received at home earlier today. Yunchi, if your interested, you might check with him on the details (pacificfront.com or you can link to him thru warship.simplenet.com). I've never tried Hobbylink Japan, so I can't offer you any insight on that subject, maybe somebody else can help you there. Hope this will help. Stuart Batchelor ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "Malcolm Batchelor" Subject: Plans & Completeness; My 2-cents Worth I am still fairly new to the shipbuilding arena (ok, maybe not new, just a 20 year layoff). One of the reasons I quit building ships oh so long ago was that there was little to consistency in scales between the different manufacturers (unlike 1/35 armour or 1/72 aircraft, both of which I build). Finally, after all of these years I started to notice in the various modelling magazines, that a bunch of little companies (no offense to anyone is meant) were making ships, either in 1/350 (to big for me) or 1/700-720, along with a bunch more of little companies (again, no offense is meant) making accessories for them. Cool! I'm back in to building ships again. The learning curve again! Research again! I enjoy the research and reading (maybe I'm weird, OK, I know I'm weird) My point is, that yes, it would be nice if manufacturers would include everything that you needed to make one of several different variations of the ship. But most injection manufacturers (I'm talking a/c & AFV's) make you by a different kit w/ a few changes to get a different version. If you wanted something different it was scratch build, make it yourself, or wait until someone else came out with it. That's how Verlinden got started. I for one am thankful that a few brave folks started "cottage industry" model kits. As I said, the research is fun, the scratch building (one of my weakpoints) is fun, and FUN is why I build models. Something, even if it is simple and basic, is better than nothing. Kudos and Muchas Gracias to the folks who have the courage to invest their time and money into giving me something to play with (and forums like SMML. Sorry if I seemed to be on a soapbox. Stuart Batchelor ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Bruce Buchner Subject: Re: Iron Shipwrights 1/350th battleship Maine I just purchased the Iron Shipwrights 1/350th battleship Maine & was wondering if someone could help with two questions. What is a good commercial paint color to use for the buff upperworks? The second is what is the best color for the waterline and lower hull. I went through American Steel Navy and looked at all the photos of ships in dry-dock and they seem to have a very wide (8' to 10') black waterline with the hull below that a slightly lighter color that could be gray or dark red. Thank you in advance for any assistance ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Newron@aol.com Subject: USS Oregon Now that I've seen the pics of the USS Oregon at the Warship page, I'm finally motivated to build the Glencoe 1/225 kit that's been sitting on my shelf. Are there any PE sets applicable to the 1/225 Glencoe USS Oregon? An anyone help me with pre Spanish-American war colors in acrylic? Thanks, guys, Wayne ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: dhjonespsm@juno.com (Daniel H. Jones) Subject: Re: Instructions Sorry Rusty, it just won't do! I think it is rather silly to suggest that the only way a manufacturer of resin kits can supply instructions is to purchase a $10,000 CAD system. CAD systems are a reletively recent development, while kits have been with us for over fifty years (longer if you count wooden kits), The secret word is: ARTIST! This was the answer long before CAD systems, and it is still valid today. I can already hear the response - I can't afford to pay a professional artist.... well, how about an amateur! In my local IPMS club there are three modelers that are very talented artists (one of whom makes a fair living at it), and if I count myself - that makes four. I am sure that there are others in clubs thoughout the country. There are also any number of art students that might be willing to do a drawing for a reasonable price. Certainly for a hell of a lot less than the cost of buying a CAD system. I would wonder why the design of instructions presents such a problem. The research has to be done anyway in order to design the model. Drawings surely are a part of this process. Why not use the research material as a basis for illustrating the instruction sheets?? I think some of the listings of needed features recently posted are perhaps too comprehensive, but there are a few MINIMAL standards that need to be considered. 1. A parts list - preferably illustrated. Otherwise how can you know if the kit is complete? 2. A exploded view drawing showing how at least the major assemblies go together. 3. A good detailed general arrangement drawing of the prototype. Unfortunately, all too many kits (including a few injected plastic kits) do not even contain these very basic elements. As one recent posting said, " why should the modeler be required to purchase a library in order to build a kit"? Why indeed! Dan ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KDur597268@aol.com Subject: ATTN - Duane Fowler Duane Fowler, could you contact me. please? Me e-mail to you bounces back. Thanks. Ken Durling --------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume