Subject: SMML20/07/98VOL246 Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 18:24:59 +1000 (EST) shipmodels@wr.com.au --------------------------------- Thanks for having SMML at your home, why not stop by our home at: http://warship.simplenet.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: USS Oregon PE Set 2: Back of the Bus? 3: Are the rest of unbanished too? 4: to Roger Clemons - re WINSLOW hull warp 5: Sewing and Sawing 6: Decals 7: RLM/naval colors 8: Re: Re: instructions 9: Poor Quality of Ship Instructions 10: Re: Are the rest of us unbanished too? 11: Instructions, prices, modelling, Good Grief !! 12: Are models from this company OK ? 13: Instructions redux second response to Tom Harrison 14: Are the rest of unbanished too? 15: Re: Glencoe's USS Oregon @ 1/225 16: Re: Colors for Iron Shipwright's USS Maine @ 1/350 and 1/192 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Warship Update 2: Titanic ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Bradford Chaucer Subject: Re: USS Oregon PE Set >> Now that I've seen the pics of the USS Oregon at the Warship page, I'm finally motivated to build the Glencoe 1/225 kit that's been sitting on my shelf. Are there any PE sets applicable to the 1/225 Glencoe USS Oregon? << GMM makes a set that covers both the Glencoe Oregon and the old Revel Olympia. It's not inexpensive though. Regards, Bradford Chaucer ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Tim Perry Subject: Back of the Bus? What is wrong with being at the back of a bus? I had my first snog with Sally Gingell at the back of a bus. I was 9 years old. I won't hear anything said against being at the back of a bus...... Tim Perry ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: John Sheridan Subject: Are the rest of unbanished too? Mike Kear wrote: >> Does the plethora of messages from John Sheridan of Microscale and Burl Burlilngame of Pacific Monograph mean that Caroline and Dave of White Ensign Models, Myself from AFP MOdels and others are no longer banished to the back of the bus? Or is it just that if we want to generate sales, web site traffic or do market research, we have to disguise it as discussion? << Mike, I build resin ship models as a hobby. I noticed that there were no decals in any of the kits that I have purchased so far. I could have easily had some sets created for myself and been happy, but I did notice that it seems to be a common complaint among those who build resin kits. So I figured that with all of the talent in this group, maybe we could all bump heads and come out with some pretty good ideas on what could be done to fix the problem of lack of decals in the resin kits. Since I do work in business, I do have some power to make the wishes of fellow modelers a reality. As for attempting to generate sales, I ask you to go find a single ship decal set in our catalog. Guess what? We don't have any nor do we plan to ! We are not in that end of the business Mike. Microscale's primary market is Model Railroad decals. That is what I work on; Model RR decals. We used to have aircraft decals but we have not expanded that line in years. We leave things like armor,ships, and planes to other companies who wish to get into this market. This whole thing started as making suggestions to the resin kit manufacturers in order to make a better kit model for us, the modeler. I threw the idea out about what we would like to see in ship decals. There was no hidden agenda, no cloaked survey. Why ? Like I said above, we are not in that area of the business. Now, with all of that said, let's all get back to modeling! I joined this list to listen to fellow modelers talk about their favorite subject: ship modeling. John Sheridan @ Microscale Decals URL: http://www.microscale.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Ed Grune Subject: to Roger Clemons - re WINSLOW hull warp Roger: My lower hull was slightly bowed. The bow & stern stood apart about 1/4 inch when the center was mated. There was also just a slight port kick to the bow which I was able to correct after I glued the hull up. I corrected the bow in the hull by using hot water, a straight board and some clamps. The clamps I use are American Tool - single hand clamps - 8-inch size (model 53006). The kind you pull the trigger to clamp. The board is a piece of 1X2 pine. It needs to be straight - not warped or bowed. Draw a line down the center of the board. Use this as a reference line when you start to straighten the hull. Before you start with the water figure where you want to place the clamps on the hull to clamp the hull to the board. Be careful around the prop shaft webbing. I caught the end of the hull, aft of the rudder. There was plenty of room to catch the stem. I used two clamps - you might need more. The water needs to be hot, not boiling. If your tap water isn't hot enough, boil the water, but let it sit a while to cool slightly. Flow the hot water over the hull or immerse it. In a few moments the resin begins to soften slightly. Its going to soften - not be gooey. You can feel it move. When its soft, clamp the hull to the board. Work quickly to flatten & remove any warps - reclamp as needed. Align the hull centerline (stem & stern) with the reference line on the board. This process can be repeated as necessary until you are satisfied with the hull alignment. After the warp was removed I sanded the mating surfaces flush. When I glued my hull halves I used some slow-setting gap filling superglue. I started at the aft end - glued, clamped, and allowed it to harden. I worked my way forward 3-4 inches at a time. The lower hull was kicked slightly to port. I used Evercoat epoxy auto body filler putty to build up the stem, then filed & sanded the stem line straight. I also used the Evercoat to fill the gap where the hull halves join. Evercoat is like Bondo. You can work it quickly - you don't have to wait overnight while the putty dries. It also feathers nicely. Good luck on straightening the hull. I hope this helps. Ed ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Alberto Rada Subject: Sewing and Sawing The Ship Model Historian said: >> Sewing the hull is really a lost art that should not be attempted in this day and age……. << Full of shame and hiding inside a closet I confess that I meant to SAW the hull at the waterline, I'll run now, my 2 grade English teacher is coming through the door with a ruler in her hand. . . SALUDOS Alberto ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Ed Grune Subject: Decals Please add my votes for decals Draft marks in both Arabic and Roman numerals Plimsol Marks and hull projection marks (bulb nose, thrusters, stabilizers) Flags - National Ensign (multi-periods), Jack (multi-period), Commisioning pennants, Paying off pennants, signal flags (alphas & numerics), Command pennants (commodore, admiral). Hull Numbers - yes - multi-period. Class designators (DE, AK, AP etc.) yes - multi-period Names - well, I'm not too sure. Maybe the class leaders or the "Famous" ones. I don't want to judge which ship is famous. Be sure to include alphabets. Maybe some stock name fragments, a la' the railroad decals (CAPE, VALLEY, STATE, JOHN, etc. ) Battle Ribbons & E's - yes. Deck Markings - VertRep, Hazard areas, Firing Circle, non-skid areas. I like the idea suggested for the rows of portholes. I'll vote for that one too. Please tone the white down so that it isn't stark against the grey. Thanks Ed ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: BSteinIPMS@aol.com Subject: RLM/naval colors >> For the ignorant like me what is RLM in reference to paints? Is it in the Model Master line? << Gene: RLM refers to the ReichLuftfahrtMinisterium (German Air Ministry) which promulgated color standards for the Luftwaffe during World War II. Much the same as Federal Standard FS 595a does for the U.S. military currently, and for which color chips are available from the government. For an example of its use in reference, an early war Bf 109 might have the color scheme RLM 70/71/65, where RLM 70 is Schwarzgrun (black-green), RLM 71 is Dunklegrun (dark green), and RLM 65 is Hellblau (light blue). (sorry about the lack of Umlats) :-) Floquil's Classic Military Colors line contains many RLM colors in their acrylic enamel formulated paint, and for which a complete color chart is available either from your hobby shop or Floquil directly. While these are aviation colors, many of them are so close to naval colors that with a little lightening or darkening, they are very suitable for naval colors. Bob Steinbrunn Minneapolis Nautical Research Guild ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: instructions >> think it is rather silly to suggest that the only way a manufacturer of resin kits can supply instructions is to purchase a $10,000 CAD system. CAD systems are a reletively recent development, while kits have been with us for over fifty years (longer if you count wooden kits), The secret word is: ARTIST! This was the answer long before CAD systems, and it is still valid today. << I agree. I'm a professional Draftsman/Illustrator as well. Incidently, CADD programs have been around over 25 years. The reason most firms use them is the accuracy, proffesional look, and the ability to change and upgrade drawings quickly without tedious earasing and redrawing. When I first started Flagship I drew all my detail sets by hand with Rapidograph pens. Flagship was the first photo-etch ship details company to use CADD in the design of our detail sets. Now, with very few exceptions nearly all companies use it and it has vastly improved the quality of the product. Depending on the number of parts already in the computer, these sets can be produced in hours instead of days or weeks, with perfect registration and accuracy. I can test fit all my parts before they ever leave the computer using 3D CADD! In short, you only have to produce a drawing once, in about 5 seconds, (including instruction illustrations) instead of numerous times with varying accuracy and lots of time. Also, the secret word "Artist" doesn't work for free either. To draw a full set of illustrated instructions with rigging diagrams, deck layouts, elevations, exploded diagrams, color guides and pertanent notes would buy CADD program. And don't give me that stuff about how you would do it for 50 cents either. If you are a proffessional as I am, you have to make a living and pay your bills too. So you can't afford to give away your services. To improve the product is the bottom line. I know I couldn't do nearly as good consistant quality work as I do now without the computer. So be thankful we have it. The fact is, these programs are the natural evalution of the business to give you, the modeler a superior product. The result is, more accurate, better quality products and more easily read instructions. Being a proffessional artist, I would not think of bashing anyone who chooses to hand draw thier instructions. Look at Classic Warships instructions. Steve does a great job illustrating by hand. I asked him once why he doesn't use his CorelDraw program to do his instructions and he said simply, "I like the way they look". It's not the only way to do instructions, but it's the best way for me. I use CADD as a business descision. Unfortunately, technology costs money. And as a photo-etch designer it's worth the investment and you, consumer, wins. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Dave Carter Subject: Poor Quality of Ship Instructions To follow on this thread, yep, we have many friends with 1/2 built ship models in their loft, stumped by the lack of instructions. However, efforts are definitely being made in this department by a number of producers. All, I suspect, are finding just how much time and effort can go into this aspect of kit production. However, put a good modeller/artist and a computer together, and miracles CAN be achieved. It seems that time and time again, people reckon we do the best instructions, but even in this dept, there IS room for improvement. A point that Rob mentioned is a resin parts list (we already do an etch list).... this is something that we have not yet addressed (I think we have covered his other points pretty much). Some other folks already produce a parts list, some illustrated, some not. All future WEM productions will carry an illustrated parts list. Others have mentioned rigging... let's get real.. we're not talking 1/48 biplanes here! If every piece of rigging was drawn and parts/functions I.D.'d on a 1/700 or 1/350 ship model, we would not be looking at a 25 page instruction sheet for e.g. the 1/350 Sheffield but a 50 page instruction sheet. Even a set of 1/192 Scale plans will only show arouond 35% of the actual rigging involved. Therefore a BASIC rigging plan provides plenty of scope in these scales. Even so, as far as we are concerned, this can only be a plan and profile representation at most, due to time/research constraints (3-D rigging for a 1/350 Hood..... aaaarghhhh!!) Decals.... not a part of ship instructions I know, but often deemed to be the missing element, and indeed this has been discussed very recently on SMML, and is often picked up by the reviewer who fails to grasp the economics of the situation. To John of Microscale... warship decals?? Don't do it. It will be an extremely long time before your investment is recouped. Loren Perry already does a good range of US Navy markings in 1/350 Scale, and a set of 1/700 aircraft markings. Skywave also produces a seriously good IJN set, and an extremely comprehensive Modern USN/JMSDF set. MB has a 1/350 set for the US Navy. Ship models account for around 3% of total model sales in the U.K. Injection moulded plastic kits generally come with decals. Resin kits normally don't. Why? A high quality multi-media armour/figure subject from Accurate or Flightpath/Firing Line may make a couple of thousand sales. A high quality resin ship model in 1/700... around 250 over its sales life, and in 1/350, around 100-150 kits. We are talking serious minority sales here. O.K. so many people have asked US why we don't include a pennant number with a 1/700 scale destroyer. Now do you get the picture guys, in light of the high cost of decal production that was raised by Rusty in a recent post. That is why we recently opted to do a General Modern Royal Navy set (500 produced at 2.00 pounds per sheet cost to us.. 6 colour). People can buy it as an add-on if they wish and it will see them through several RN builds. However, with our seriously tight margins/high costs, we could not afford to include this set with every kit. Back to pennant numbers... this is why you do not see a WW2 generic RN set. It is not humanely possible, as they are not a straightforward black or white. For example, where the letter/number combos overlap 2 camou colours, the colours on the numbers are often reversed so they are also effectively camouflaged... imagine the huge potential for variation with the camou schemes available in the last war? Now multiply this by the numbers of letters and numbers used... and pop it all on to a decal sheet. Huge, expensive... not practical, as we are talking about more, a lot more than 6 colours. Maybe we'll get that ALPS printer working for us instead! Cheers Caroline Carter White Ensign Models ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Dave Carter Subject: Re: Are the rest of us unbanished too? Hi Guys, Having trawled my way through around 18 days worth of SMML posts yesterday and today, there a few points that I would like to pick on ... I think that Mike Kear has a point re. "trade" use of the modellers section... perhaps we could keep ALL forms of advertising (with its limited run of 25 lines per advert) on the back page. Since this policy was instigated, I feel that we at WEM, and others, have been pretty scrupulous about this, but for example, we are now seeing up to 50 lines worth of advertising being "allowed" in the trade section. Why? Everyone who subscribes should be familiar with the rules, and what's sauce for the goose (myself on one occasion) should indeed be sauce for the ganders out there. One extreme suggestion is that no mailing addresses, website addresses, nor telephone numbers be allowed in the modelling section, where those addresses themselves have any connection with review, sales or promotion of ANY commercial materials. The modeller is I.D'd by his/her E-Mail address only. I wonder how many of the larger commercial enterprises would then bother to post? Such postings would then be confined to the 25 line rule in the Commercial section. This would mean e.g. that we would not be allowed to mention White Ensign Models in a posting in the modellers section... nor could we refer e.g. to NAVIS or WARSHIP as carrying reviews of WEM kits..but where do we draw the line? ... it does seem that at times, these days, SMML is dominated by the presence of many small (and large) businesses vying for attention from the ship modeller ... On the other hand, modellers need producers, and producers need modellers (and I also feel that both producers and modellers need reviewers, otherwise mediocrity and inaccuracy would still be the norm) and many producers are also modellers. Where do we draw the line... can a line be drawn? This is a problem which I originally envisaged when the idea of having a separate commercial section was launched... Any other thoughts on the subject? Cheers Caroline Carter White Ensign Models http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "Jeff Herne" Subject: Instructions, prices, modelling, Good Grief !! Hi everybody, A bunch of things...I saw somebody do this coding a few posts ago, and it's kinda neat... Instructions: I've heard alot of guys complaining about instructions. While Jon and Ted have come forward and tried to resolve the recent flurry of complaints, I can attest from both a modelers and manufacturer's perspective that creating instructions isn't easy to do. This is especially true in my case, where drawing a straight line is a task. True, we do the masters, in my case the Accurate Image Models 1/350 Hunt, but we read the plans, and I've learned to build the kit from builder's plans, plan and profile. Alot of work goes into producing a kit, I honestly figured it would be a breeze, especially with a relatively small ship like the Hunt. I was wrong...hell, I wrote a damn book on ships and I'm getting complaints about "you forgot the line drawing of the captain's urinal". How much more do you want? How much is enough? Everybody's opinion will differ. If you're an expert **SNIP** (Sorry Jeff, even you can't pull that off here-Greg:-), you can build a ship blindfolded, and you even know the date the ship's mascot was neutered. If you're like the rest of us, you make due with what you've got available. Try this at home: take a common kit that you know well, a Fletcher DD for example. Put the instructions away, and draw up a set of your own instructions, using only a set of builders plans and some photos. I think most of us will agree, after trying this, that it ain't as easy as it looks...if you really want to get railed, give the kit with your instructions to someone else to build... To everybody who says "you wouldn't be producing kits without us", meaning the consumers, I say this; if you don't like the kit, then send it back, and quit your bitchin'. When was the last time Hasegawa or Tamiya listened to your demands and reacted? OK, so the prices are higher than injected kits. Try this at home: go out and by 5 gallons of casting rubber, 5 gallons of resin, a mid-size air compressor, and air tanks big enough to hold your molds. Then do your master, add in research time, do your artwork or pay to have it done, get the etcher lined up, etc. etc. Remember: we invest alot of time and money into these kits, and we can expect to sell between 50-100 kits, especially of the larger subjects. We aren't getting rich off this business. Mike Kear, It appears to me that John Sheridan of Microscale and Burl Burlingame of Pacific Monograph are interested in the needs of the modelling community, hence they post into the main area (Greg, correct me on this if I'm out of line). Simply because they are manufacturers doesn't ban them to the back of the bus, or the end of list. But I did not see either John or Burl try to peddle their products in the main section of the list. I have no trouble with a manufacturer posting a request in the main section, asking for opinions from us about their products. What I don't want to see somebody's catalog pasted into their message. If I want their products, I know where to go to get it. So everybody chill out, you're all getting too damn serious here. Jeff Herne "I'm not a real doctor, but I play one on TV" E.M.P. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Johnny Pedersen" Subject: Are models from this company OK ? Hi all Iīve just ordered a shipmodel from a Belgium model mail-order company. Itīs POSEIDON PROGRAM 1/150 NANUCHKA I RUSIAN GUIDED MISSILE CORVETTE. It comes along with a book + PE parts. I was wondering if any of you knows this POSEIDON PROGRAM company. And if itīs any good. I realize that if itīs complete waste of money, then itīs too late for me but at least it can prevent others from doing my mistake :^) Anyway, itīs a bit unusual subject for me as I normally only do 1/35 armor related stuff + wooden models of sailingships but I like to keep an open mind. HAPPY MODELING to you all. Johnny Pedersen Webmaster of "Whatīs on the Worktop?" http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/5680/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Bradford Chaucer Subject: Instructions redux second response to Tom Harrison After writing my last comment regarding instructions in reply to Tom's comments, I felt challenged to take a look at the instruction set that he provided with his 1/350 scale Arizona. I can only say that Tom, you are an agent provocature :-) If all of the resin manufacturers included instruction sets as comprehensive as yours, this discussion would never have started! The only possible area for improvemen I noted is that there should be some diagrams for the rigging and long wire antennas. Otherwise they were quite comprehensive. Regards, Bradford Chaucer ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From : Greg Lee (Listmaster - SMML) Subject: Are the rest of unbanished too? Mike, >> Does the plethora of messages from John Sheridan of Microscale and Burl Burlilngame of Pacific Monograph mean that Caroline and Dave of White Ensign Models, Myself from AFP Models and others are no longer banished to the back of the bus? << Firstly, SMML is not solely a means for promotion, it is primarily a discussion group, with an option to advertise within reader - majority defined guidelines. From time to time, the boundaries of what is classed as Trade and What is not, is not always clear, and since my post asking everybody to put *TRADE* in the subject line if they feel it should be there, guess how many have done it - *0*! I generally place an ad in the traders section if it contains $$ information, and if its obviously clear that it should be there, but if not, I am left in a situation, and I might not always make the right choice - I am Sorry! >> Or is it just that if we want to generate sales, web site traffic or do market research, we have to disguise it as discussion? Or does it depend on how large you are as a business. Microscale being at least 100 times bigger business than mine and much more able to pay for advertising than I am. << Well, nobody pays me so they can advertise on SMML. Its a service that I provide because I CAN - I do it in good faith, for the good of the list, industry, and everyone who participates in SMML. I could quite easily start charging for the privilege - considering the popularity of the list, and the amount of effort I DONATE, I feel I could justify a small advertising fee. Looking at this from a business point of view, Why should you, or WEM, or anybody else we can drag into this make money from SMML if I don't Mike? The bottom line: I have said many times, to many readers and businesses, I am only to happy for EVERYBODY to use SMML to promote their own ventures, and I am most certain Mike that you have never been told otherwise! >> When I understand what the rules are here, I might consider posting again. I haven't posted to this list in months, considering it not worth the effort being dumped down the back of the bus. << I don't understand why you would write this Mike, Its very disappointing, considering we have had dealings off the list, and in person. If you had a question, or a problem with something, I thought you would just send me a **PRIVATE**, we could have put this straight with a lot less fuss. Greg Lee (Listmaster - SMML) P.S. Jeff Herne - No Correction required, I agree 100% ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: RCClem@aol.com Subject: Re: Glencoe's USS Oregon @ 1/225 Wayne (Newron@aol.com) asked about the available PE kits for Glencoe's USS Oregon @ 1/225. Gold Medal Models makes a very good set that has enough pieces to also do the Revell Olympia @ 1/240. I hear that there are enough pieces left over to do part of a Lone Star Models USS Winslow @ 1/192. I believe Tom's Modelworks also makes a set for the Glencoe Oregon. I hear it is a high quality set. Now my question: I use Tamiya's water based acrylics, partly because my wife will let me and my 10 year old son brush paint at the kitchen table! Does anyone have a mixture of Tamiya's paints that can paint the Oregon (hull underwater, hull sides, decks and superstructure)? Roger Clemens Hinsdale, Illinois ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: RCClem@aol.com Subject: Re: Colors for Iron Shipwright's USS Maine @ 1/350 and 1/192 Bruce Buchner asked about colors for the USS Maine. I also request information about colors. I use Tamiya's waterbased acrylics because they are easy to clean up for me and my 10 year son. So my wife lets us work on her kitchen table! Are there any conversions or % / % mixtures Tamiya paints for the various parts of the ship? Hull underwater; waterline; hull sides; deck; buff superstructure; wooden structures, etc.) Roger Clemens Hinsdale, Illinois ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Rob Mackie" Subject: Warship Update I have updated the 1250 Scale portion of Warship (http://warship.simplenet.com) with the following new items: Opened 1250 Model Reviews page 7 new models in the Pacific Front 1250 scale gallery Added new section, New Releases and Developments in 1250 Scale Added new producers to the 1250 History page Added new sources for 1250 scale models to the 1250 History page Added models to 1250 Classics section of 1250 History page Rob Mackie Warship http://warship.simplenet.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Bob Morley Subject: Titanic I was in our semi-local Hobby Lobby today(Sunday). They have the Revell 1/570 Titanic and the Mincraft 1/350 Titanic on sale. The Revell is normally $12.00 + tax (81/2%). The Mincraft is normally $60.00 + tax. Until Sat. July 25 they are 1/3 off. They have 2 Revells and 4 Mincrafts. Contact me directly if you want me to get these for you. I don't know what shipping would cost or how you would get the money to me in time. You might check with your local Hobby Lobby to see if they have the 1/3 off sale also. Bob Bob Morley Cleburne, Texas *** Faith is not beliving that God can, It's KNOWING that He will. *** ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume