Subject: SMML30/07/98VOL256 Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 03:17:33 +1000 (EST) shipmodels@wr.com.au --------------------------------- Thanks for having SMML at your home, why not stop by our home at: http://warship.simplenet.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: MB Models address 2: Plans for Gorshkov? 3: Re: 40ft CMB WWI Torpedo Boat 4: Flower Class Corvettes (again) 5: SMML29/7/98Vol255 - HMS FURIOUS/FEARLESS 6: HMCS Agassiz/Sackville/Snowberry et al. 7: Re: Bainbridge Colors 8: Flower class again 9: Looking for the Minotaur (WW1) 10: Flower Class Corvettes PE set for Matchbox/Revell kit 11: Airfix/Revell 1/72 Flower Class Corvette 12: DD1 Bainbridge 13: Re: Color for USS Bainbridge 14: Flowery Tale 15: RN Navy Grey 16: Airfix/Revell 1/72 Flower Class Corvette PE set ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: FS: book: "Great maritime Museums of the World" 2: WEM 1/350 Sheffield 3: New Maritime Books Title 4: AFP Models has now shipped to 7 countries! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: MB Models address The e-mail address of MB Models is: MBishop@aol.com You can see their web site at Navismagazine.com. They have a banner advertisement there so you can order any models. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: jpoutre@lehman.com (Joseph Poutre) Subject: Plans for Gorshkov? Hi all, Does anyone make some plans for the Russian (possibly soon to be Indian) carrier Admiral Gorshkov? I would like a plan view and profiles from port and starboard. I have the Concord publications book, but it doesn't have plans - great for detailing, lousy for adapting an Aoshima Kiev. Thanks, Joe Poutre ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Erwin Van Deynze Subject: Re: 40ft CMB WWI Torpedo Boat >> Found it ! ! ! well described at Jane's Fighting Ships WW1, should have looked here first ( DUMB ME ) Quote: Coastal Motor Boats Original Boats 3-12 Dimensions 40*8 ½ * 3 feet 350h.p. Thornycroft motor over 30 kts. 1 torpedo carried in central trough over stern. Harwich Light Cruisers used to each take a pair of these boats to sea, slung from davits, while, in the Mediterrnean, light cruiser Diamond served as a special CMB Carrier End quote I have no information on scale or cost, but will keep you posted << There are plans of the 40ft CMB (at 1/16th) in Model Shipwright no 96 (June 1996). They apear to be very good and are complete. The accompanying article says that the original idea came from three RN officers. The idea was to build a small vessel that could cross the North Sea and had so little draught that is could easily pass the minefields to attack the German fleet at its anchorages. The 18 inch torpedo in the trough was fired over the stern (rear end first), after wich the boat steered sideways, so the torpedo could pass the boat to its target. According the article 39 were build, mostly by Thornycroft. There should be one surviving boat in the Imperial War Museum at Duxford. Erwin Van Deynze ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: HGYL@aol.com Subject: Flower Class Corvettes (again) This is how myths are created. For those who are seriously interested in these little ships I strongly urge you to get hold of the reference material I listed a few days ago and the I.W.M. photo lists. These photos are dated and include several of the Canadian ships. To set the record straight as far as I am able to do so regarding some of the comments made here recently I offer the following. 1. Because of the shortage of Allied minesweepers it was decided to fit 24 British and 54 Canadian Flowers for minesweeping. The 54 Canadian ships were the 1939-1940 Programme (Agassiz to Weyburn) and all were completed with short focsle (later rebuilt with extended focsle). I am not sure of the identity of all the British ships. The stern was "squared off" to create more space for sweep rollers and for the same reason the casing was shortened necessitating moving the galley forward.The term "squared off stern" is probably misleading. It was a rounded cruiser stern and the difference from the standard stern was really rather subtle. The lines of both are shown superimposed one on the other (as are those of the original and increased sheer and flare) on pages 42 and 43 of the Agassiz book. This design feature was not to accomodate Canadian shipbuilders. 2. The remaining Canadian ships with original sheer and flare were not fitted for minesweeping and thus did not have the "squared off stern". These were: 10 ships built in Canadian yards for the R.N., 1939-1940 Programme, Arrowhead to Windflower. These were transferred to the R.C.N. on completion and included Snowberry. 6 ships built for the R.C.N. in the 1940-1941 Programme, Brantford to Vancouver. All 16 above ships were completed with short focsles which were later extended. 10 ships built for the R.C.N. in the 1940-1941 Revised Programme with increased sheer and flare (and so by definition with the long focsle), Calgary to Woodstock. 14 ships built for the R.C.N. in the 1942-1943 Increased Endurance Programme. Final hull design, increased sheer and flare, long focsle, upright funnel, repositioned 4" gun. Atholl to Whitby. 3. Early Canadian ships had the after gun positioned further aft because it was not expected that Canadian ships would operate in areas where A/A warfare would be a priority. The arc of fire problem was, of course, later resolved by the removal of the mainmast. 4. All Flowers were subject to a gradual process of habitability improvement (not just those of the R.C.N.). This was a gradual process out of necessity as the role changed from coastal to ocean escort, weapons and systems became more complex and the crew size increased from the original 29 to around 100 in the final ships. 5. Sackville was completed by Saint John (NB) Dry Dock and Shipbuilding Co. in December 1941. The refit which included extending the focsle was in Galveston, Texas, from March to May of 1944. She was converted to her final oceanographic configuration in 1968. Her restoration to her late war appearance (not her original) was begun in 1982. 6. Snowberry was built 1940/41 by Davie Shipbuilding Co., Lauzon, (with the standard stern and short focsle) and transferred to the R.C.N. on completion. Her focsle was extended in Charleston, S.C., Dec 41 to Feb 42. Harold Lincoln ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Tim Stoneman Subject: SMML29/7/98Vol255 - HMS FURIOUS/FEARLESS In SMML 255 Mark Kwasnycia asked about my earlier mailing on pictures of RN ships in World War 2 - Mark, I have a feeling that you may be mixing up the destroyer HMS FEARLESS (sunk by HMS FORESTER after torpedo attack by Italian aircraft 23 July 1941) and the aircraft carrier (ex "large light cruiser") HMS FURIOUS (in reserve from 1944, and scrapped in 1948). postmaster@tjsathome.demon.uk ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Keith Butterley Subject: HMCS Agassiz/Sackville/Snowberry et al. Hi all, HMCS Aggassiz (K129) was built by Burrard Dry Dock Co. of Vancouver BC, and was launched 15/8/40. Her foc'sle extension was done in New York Dec/43-Apr/44. HMCS Sackville (K181) was built by Saint John Dry Dock and Shipbuilding Co. of Saint John NB, and was launched 15/5/41. Her foc'sle extension was done in Galveston Feb/44-May/44. HMCS Snowberry was built by Davie Shipbuilding and Repairing Co. of Lauzon QUE, and was launched 8/8/40. Her foc'sle was done in Charleston Dec/41-Feb/42. She was one of a group of ten corvettes built in Canadian shipyards for the RN. Windflower, Trillium, Hepatica, Arrowhead, Eyebright, Mayflower, Spikenard, Fennel and Bittersweet being the others. All these ships were sailed to the UK to be outfitted, so had very little in the way of armament when they set sail. Most carried a wooden 4" inch gun in the forward mount, to give the appearance at least of a warship. Apparently an Admiral aboard HMS Rodney spotting one of these ships arriving in the UK was to have remarked "Since when did we start clubbing the enemy to death." None of these ships ever served with the RN, as they enough trouble in manning the ships they already had, so all were formally commisioned into the RCN on 15/5/41 and sailed back to Canadian waters for assignment. Keith Butterley Ready aye ready ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "mike.leonard" Subject: Re: Bainbridge Colors When I got my BWN kit -- a few years ago -- the instructions called for an overall black, gray, or olive drab (!) paint job above the waterline and red below. Looking at the few photos I could locate (pre-Internet days) I went with a very dark (i.e., charcoal) gray finish. Several of these early DDs also had the name displayed on the hull forward near the pilot house. Mike ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Björn Bäcklund" Subject: Flower class again Thank you all who contributed with all facts of these corvettes. I was building one but now everything is so confusing so I think I'll quit (big grin). But seriously one thing is clear? the more facts one gets, less one knows. There is just more things popping up and it's hard to get an model done. Perhaps I should build kits out of the box instead. Now to what I really wanted to ask: I have an opportunity to buy the Revell Mision Capistrano and I know it's an old kit. But is it worth buying? I would really like an navy fleet oiler because it's rather different. (Please don't confuse me to much answering this) Björn Bäcklund, Sweden ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Mark Krywienko Subject: Looking for the Minotaur (WW1) Dear Sirs, I am new to ship modelling and I am looking for some assistance with the following question. I want to make a model of the English Battlecruiser 'Minotaur' that served in WW1 (Battle of Jutland) however I can find no reference to any kits being available. Any suggestions? REGARDS MARK KRYWIENKO (Sydney Australia) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Tim Perry Subject: Flower Class Corvettes PE set for Matchbox/Revell kit The set mentioned by Ron Hillsden was from Flightpath Models. Run by Dave Parkins, their current address is : Flightpath Models Trefacwn Fach Llanrhian St Davids SA62 6DP Phone No is (United Kingdom) 01348 831534 I will give him a call tomorrow to find out the current situation regarding the set. As i recall, it included about 1 hectare of brass, plus a load of WM DCs, throwers and other bits and bobs. Now if he could shoot it all down to 1:350...... (BG) Tim Perry (Bristol, UK) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Tim Perry Subject: Subject: Airfix/Revell 1/72 Flower Class Corvette I remember building one of these kits when they first came out, as a commission when I worked in a local hobby store. It funded my first motorcycle as I recall. I knew enough to replace the AA armament with ordnance raided form the Airfix Rescue Launch and PT boats, as well as the crew. The Corvette hull was a s-d to glue together, but mine ended up as a waterline model in a BIG glass case. The waves were made from auto filler, and at the time I was pretty pleased with the result. I have one photo of it now; of course, the thing that screams out at me is the wake is clearly not at 39.56 degrees, more like 38.7. If only I knew then what I know now...... About the same time as the Matchbox kit was released, an outfit run by a chap called John Piper released a seriously beautiful kit, but to a smaller scale. It must have been about half the size, but had a glass fibre hull, PE superstructure and loads of white metal parts. It was very expensive, but superbly executed and no doubt the 'cheap' plastic kit did the Pipers kit sales no good at all. Pipers released a 'Grey Goose' gunboat to a similar standard later on, but I have not seen either for years. They must be worth a fortune to collectors (who know the price of everything and the value of nowt, as my old grandfather used to say. Can't think why, he came from Somerset.) I think Scale Models magazine ran a 'build-up' series on the Corvette at the time. I'd love to see one again, if only to check the tint of my rose coloured spectacles! (BG) Finally, our local ASDA store had a pile of Videos going cheap, including the Cruel Sea, for £5.99. VHS PAL. A bargain, for a fine film of a finer book. Did anyone hear the BBC Radio 2 transmissions recently, with Philip Madoc as Ericson? Sorry, Jack Hawkins IS Ericson in my view.... Tim Perry (Bristol, UK) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Alberto Rada Subject: DD1 Bainbridge Hi Duane From several photos on this ship and other information obtained, I believe that the overall color ( from the waterline up) should be a very very dark gray or if you wish a faded black. BTW, I collected several photos from the internet that can email if you wish. SALUDOS Alberto ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: RCClem@aol.com Subject: Re: Color for USS Bainbridge Duane Fowler asked for the color of the USS Bainbridge. Refering to my copy of John Alden's American Steel Navy, it appears that the first several DDs were painted a dark charcoal. Perhaps this was to help hide them at night, when they were expected to engage torpedo boats that would be trying to attack the capital ships they were designed to guard. Others on this list surely know more about the effectiveness of various shades of dark gray in hiding ships at night. I know that pure black was not optimum, since nights are not completely dark. Roger Clemens ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Dave Carter Subject: Flowery Tale Hi Guys Just thought, with all the recent discussions, people might be interested by this story by Frank Glass, from the Flower Class association's journal "Corvette Cracker" Algerian Coast, 1943 (June). Convoy en-route Malta. Time-Twilight (when German bombers from Sardinia chose to attack at low level action stations). 4 inch gun closed up. Dark shapes appear, all gunners happy to oblige, much noise, little or no hits, however, one dark shape remains, 4 inch gun blasting away with gusto. Frantic shouts from the bridge "cease fire it's the Anemone". O/C 4 "I know it's the *flippin* enemy".. continues to fire at will (getting closer each round). Messenger despatched to "Joe" O/C 4. "Cease fire it's the "Anemone". Joe finally gets the message- 4 inch silent. Message from "Anemone" (later). "We are not amused". Cheers Caroline "shiphead" Carter/nWMo White Ensign Models http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Michael Kear Subject: RN Navy Grey Magazines, photos, videos can never give us a good rendition of the colour. Every time I think I have it buttoned down, I see another photo or print and it's a different colour. The time of day, the printing process, the exposure of the photo all contribute to change the way the colour prints. So if you really want your model to look right, you can't really work from magazines etc. When I was touring Plymouth RN base in 1992, and taking photos for my model of HMS Ambuscade, I realised that there was a big problem getting colours right in Australia since RN warships hardly ever call here. Australian warships look almost green when alongside US or UK ships. So I told the immensely helpful LtCdr Greg who was taking me anywhere I wanted to go that I needed a sample of the colour of the ship. He said, "you have photos don't you?" So I explained why I needed a piece of the paint. We looked for a bit of scrap steel somewhere or something that had paint on it, and finally a PO saw us and asked what we were doing. I told him and he said "wait a sec" and disappeared. He returned in a jiffy with a stick. He'd dipped it in a can of paint, and stirred the paint till the stick was well coated with real RN paint!. I looked at this stick, thought about spending the rest of the day holding a stick with wet paint on it, getting in and out of cars, busses, etc, brushing against people and putting paint on their crisp white uniforms and carrying this wretched thing around and thought it was best to say no thanks. But reason prevailed and I figured what better way to get the colour right, than from a paint sample from the ship itself! So I wandered round holding this precious stick trying desperately to avoid getting the paint on anyone. Looked a proper berk I can tell you! But now I have a prized artefact amongst the modellers of Task Force 72 who build modern RN ships. And we've identified the exact match in the Taubman's range of house paints. (When you build a 5 foot long model you don't stuff about with tinky little pots of Humbrol enamels!) The only regret I have is that I only got one stick. So I have a sample of the paint that goes on the sides of the ships, but not the deck paint. And now I have the exact same problem with trying to figure out the modern deck colour. Seems every second photo of a RN ship has a different colour deck. I think the idea is that the skipper of each ship can express his mood of the day by selecting the deck colour from a colour chart. Can anyone offer a more logical definition of the RN deck colours these days? Fair winds and following seas, Mike Kear, ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Erwin Van Deynze Subject: Airfix/Revell 1/72 Flower Class Corvette PE set >> I think most of the people who read this list will be really disappointed in the quality of this kit. I built one, << Yeah right, once I compared the actual parts with the anatomy of the ship book, My hair suddenly turned grey !!! >> but all I used was the hull, funnel, cowl vents, some of the superstructure and a few of the detail parts. It was by and far the biggest kit-bash I ever attempted. << Well, I'm also in scifi-kits and currently building a DS9 runabout, with interior and lighting and it is even worse I think >> The good side to this is there are always unassembled or partially assembled models at swap meets. People give up. Open the box and have a good look. If you are prepared to replace all the pieces whic are just wrong or out of scale, it is a good project. Two bright spots: The model is an excellent radio control sailor if you are interested in converting it. There is also an excellent photo-etch set for it. Saw it once, it came from Britian, that's all I know. << Where? where? Can anyone plesase give my some more information about that set? There are resin sets by Sirmar, but as I've told before I haven't yet received them, does anybody know the firm Midway Models in Leicester (UK), it is about 4 weeks now that i've ordered the resin update sets, but nothing until now. >> This is just a warning to those who think this kit will give them a finished model they will be proud to display in a glass case. Maybe with the photetch frets and a lot of scratch work, but not if you shake the box. << ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: BSteinIPMS@aol.com Subject: FS: book: "Great maritime Museums of the World" One of the nurses at work (who needs the money) has asked my help in selling a book she has and which is in new condition. Mystic Seaport's book catalog describes it thusly: "Great Maritime Museums of the World", 11 1/2" x 9 1/4", 304 pages, 309 illustrations, index, cloth, hard cover, ISBN 0-917439-12-0, a Balsam/Abrams book. "In this stunning maritime treasury, directors and curators of twenty-six of the world's finest nautical museums describe the historical and geographical significance of the art and artifacts in their collections. Connoisseurs, sailors, historians, and lovers of the sea will find delight and information in this, the first such visual survey ever assembled." The book retails for $65.00 U.S., but she would like $60.00 plus $3.00 for shipping within the U.S. International shipping would be quoted on an individual basis. If you have an interest in this, e-mail BSteinIPMS@aol.com Bob Steinbrunn Nautical Research Guild Minneapolis ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Dave Carter Subject: WEM 1/350 Sheffield Hi guys, Well, we're working our way through a mountain of Sheffield kits at this time, trying to get them shipped to everyone.. If you haven't ordered a full hull kit already, then do so now at the special intro price.. the price for full hull kits has to rise for any orders coming in after that time. Therefore, the full hull price rises from the special of 164.98 to 200.00 as of 1st August The waterline special price is being held through the first production run at 150.00, but we will expect it to rise before the end of August. Cheers Caroline Carter WEM P.S. Reviews of the kit have appeared both on NAVIS at http://navismagazine.com and the WARSHIP website at http://warship@simplenet.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Dave Carter Subject: **TRADE** New Maritime Books Title Just had "Royal Navy in Focus 1970-79" in stock, price 14.95 pounds plus shipping.. 160 pages, the latest in this series featuring A5 sized photographs of RN vessels through the decades. This latest title includes 18 in high quality colour. Please E-mail me, Caroline, with orders or further info. Cheers Caroline "Shiphead" Carter/nWMo White Ensign Models, http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Michael Kear Subject: TRADER: AFP Models has now shipped to 7 countries! Sorry for this little bit of trumpet blowing, but I'm really stoked now. I started AFP Models a few months ago as a kind of exercise to understand the issues relating to building maintaining and running web sites and conducting transactions over the web. I never really expected it to be commercially viable. Today I received an order by email for a 1/72 scale Spruance kit (A$1500 total) that will be sent to the seventh country we've exported them to! Who would have thought that people would buy 9 foot long models from across the world, giving their credit cards and trusting us to send the goods? Well I'm pleasantly surprised. People seem to want the models and they are prepared to buy them on line after all. And I haven't even finished the catalogue yet. Why not go and have a look at what we're on about at http://www.afp.zip.com.au/models.html Fair winds and following seas, Mike Kear, ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume