Subject: SMML06/08/98VOL263 Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 19:47:41 +1000 (EST) shipmodels@wr.com.au --------------------------------- Thanks for having SMML at your home, why not stop by our home at: http://warship.simplenet.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Midway Models 2: Re: Best looking ship class 3: Best looking ship class 4: The Big Yam.... again 5: Techniques Query 6: Best Looking Ship Contest 7: RE: Best Looking Ships 8: Re: Most beautiful warship 9: Re: Best Looking Ship 10: Re: Typhoon 11: Re: David MacGregor, Best Looking Ship 12: Re: Best looking ship class 13: Midway Models 14: Re: DKM Colors 15: Used to be Shades of Grey but now goes for the more attractive 16: USS Enterprise CVA65 17: Re: Heller 'Le Soirot'/for SMML 18: Re: Larger Scales - Dean's Marine 19: Re: Midway Models? 20: Jeanne d'Arc 21: Ship colors 22: Best looking 23: Re:Typhoon 24: Mission Capistrano ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: AVON IPMS Bath Show 2: RE: Plastic Injection Ship Kits ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Les Pickstock (Les Pickstock) Subject: Re: Midway Models I'm going to assume that you mean Midway Models in Leicester. They are still trading from one of the smallest shops I,ve ever seen. I was up there about 4 weeks ago and nearly had to climb over all sorts of goodies to get to the counter. Plenty of stuff for R/C and scale ships. Their address is Midway Models, 157 St Leonards Rd, Leicester, Leics, LE2 3BZ Tel: 0116 2701609 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Senkan@aol.com Subject: Re: Best looking ship class >> No doubt about it. Any of the Iowa Class battleships. << Iowa was the best Battleship fighting wise but give me Yamato on that April day in 1945. Iowa looks so generic. Ken Hamilton ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bradford Chaucer Subject: Best looking ship class Hate to disagree with our esteemed listmaster, But the Iowas to me look more like the most lethal, not best. My vote goes to, no big surprise here, ships of the Great White Fleet Regards, Bradford Chaucer ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Ritchie_deutag, Colin" Subject: The Big Yam.... again Just a snippet of modelling life, on Monday I was in Edinburgh on a shopping spree, (Dragon 1/350 Bunker Hill, and Revell 1/32nd Hunter, ). Lo and behold, there was the blessed 1/200th Yamoto sitting on a shelf, big as life, and twice as ugly, (only kidding Greg). They wanted £225 for it, (that's approx. $360). I did try to persuade my charming wife, but no, also tried her on the Tamiya Enterprise, (they had 2 of them at £145), but still nothing, Ah well, back to the resin I guess, (how's the Victorious coming Caroline?) Seems like you can't escape large Japanese Battleships no matter how hard you try. Colin Ritchie (PS if anyone from the list ever finds himself in Edinburgh, I was in Wonderland Models, Lothian road, across from the Sheraton Hotel) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: DaveRiley1@aol.com Subject: Techniques Query Hi all, One of the biggest challenges I have had is modeling the canvas weather shields on 5" mounts and 6" and 8" turrets - in both 1/700 and 1/350 scale. This may have been discussed before I signed up, but is there any advice out there on the best way to build/construct/model/portray these items?? Also, is there a best way to ensure the engraved waterlines remain visible after hull painting. Seems like whenever I paint the hull I have no problems with painting both upper and lower hull, but when it comes time to mask and paint the black boot topping I am scrounging around trying to determine where it is supposed to be. I have this problem mostly in 1/350 and I am obviously talking injected molded kits. Any advice here will definitely help when I start my BWN South Dakota. Any good ideas or techniques on how to keep the waterline mask straight - particularly on the larger 1/350 scale would also help. On an unrelated item, while my vote would go to the SALEM class CAs as the best looking ships around, the WORCESTER and ROANOKE CLs run a very close second. Their great looking hull lines are very similar, and I think the unique twin 6" gun turrets are things obeauty. If the ALASKAs rate a resin kit (there were only two ships), I would say the WORCESTERs do as well (also only two of them). Dave Riley Portsmouth, RI ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Felix Bustelo Subject: Best Looking Ship Contest Hello all, here are my nominations and a few seconds - warships - Iowa class BBs - way cool KM Bismarck/Tirpitz - tre cool as well Vittorio Venneti (spelling?) class - the Italians had some nice looking ships. The French Strasbourg class was also handsome, if not very effective. The Brits had great ships, but not all were "beauties" but ya gotta give the Hood and Warspite (after 30's refit) a two-thumbs up! (Can't forget the Brits, right Caroline?). Now, since I love liners and the contest rules (or rather lack of them) did not dictate that warships were the only eligible contestants, I must add a couple of liners in here. The SS Normandie - the most beautiful liner ever built. The SS United States (of course) - the greatest liner every built - she just screamed speed. Thanks for your time, Felix Bustelo ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "Katz, Gene S" Subject: RE: Best Looking Ships Hi Y'all Said it before and I'll say it again: bestest and sexiest (oops, not PC) has got to be the Alaska Class CBs. White elephants to be sure, but what lines and curves! The Regia Marina also had some fine looking ships, e.g., Vittorio Veneto class BBs and CA Pola (with her forward funnel faired into the superstructure). What does anyone think about the French super DDs of the late 30s? Or Regia Marina's CLs that were designed to counter them? I have more than a passing interest in one of the Alaskas, the Guam - CB2. My favorite uncle was a radarman on the Guam; they called it radio technician in 1944. He was responsible for 40mm radar. Off Okinawa one night, they brought down an unseen Kamikaze. Deck crew heard it, but no one saw it, until it exploded in flames from 40 mm AA . At chow the next morning, the radar gang went to the head of the line and were treated as "magicians". They also shore bombarded some island in Japanese home waters, escorted the Franklin out of the forward area, and earned 2 battle stars. Right after Okinawa the Navy highlined my uncle off of the Guam and shipped him back to Princeton U in the V - something OC program. Darn, just when he was having so much fun. I've always wanted to model the ship for him. OK Bill, where is my SAMEK 1/700 Alaska? Gene S. Katz ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Most beautiful warship >> As a close second I pick the 'battlecruisers' Alaska and Guam. Useless but purdy. In third place the DKM Scharnorst and Gneisenau but only after they received their so-called clipper bow. << My second favorite ship is the Rodney. What a unique design with the superstructure at the rear and all those capital guns on the bow. If I keep writing may change my mind. I saw the (Steel Navy?) 1/350 Rodney at the Nats. Man, it looks impressive. Too bad it's just out of my price range (sigh). Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: John Philip Downing Subject: Re: Best Looking Ship I would vote for HMS Tiger, the WWI battlecrusier. And would like to see someone do a model of her. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Baker Subject: Re: Typhoon For Mr. Burlingame, the configuration of the TYPHOON (Russian name for the class is AKULA, just to be confusing) is absolutely established and has been detailed in numerous official and unofficial Russian publications. If you need characteristics and illustrations, see the latest COMBAT FLEETS or Pavlov's Russian and Soviet Warships, 1945-1995 from the U.S. Naval Institute Press (available from their website at http://www.usni.org). TYPHOONs (of which only one is still operating) have no less than five pressure hulls, with the major structure being two parallel sections whose forward half is of much smaller diameter to permit the missile tubes to be installed BETWEEN the pressure hulls. There is a small centerline pressure hull forward to accommodate the torpedo tube-launched weapons system, a large one centerline atop the catamaran arrangement, within the sail area (hence the bulge around the base of the sail), and a small one aft with the steering gear and sternplane machinery. The bottom of the boat (if you can call an object with an enveloped volume of something like 45,000 cubic meters a "boat") is rounded and not indented, as can be seen not only in published photos of one of the class in a floating dry dock but also in a photo of an official model of the unit being presented to Admiral Gorshkov a few years ago. General opinion in the Russian Navy is that the boats were much too large and unhandy for their purpose, and the enormous cost of refitting and recoring them has resulted in their gradual attrition; official statements have been made to the effect that the last will have left service before 2000. NONE of the models on the market captures correctly the shape of much of anything about the class except for the sail area; the worst was a kit showing a rather rude--and wholly imaginary--projection forward of the bow. The Russians are publishing far more about their navy, past and present, than is available about the USN. General arrangement interior drawings for most of the classes have appeared in MORSKOY SBORNIK, SUDOSTROINYE, GANGUT, and in Pavlov, and extensive characteristics data have been issued about virtually everything except the very latest classes (and even there, GANGUT #14 ran three computer illustrations of the latest SSN class--SEVERDOVINSK, on which work seems to have halted--supplied by the design bureau). The USN, on the other hand, seems afraid that the U.S. public will discover it owns a navy. A.D. Baker, III ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Sanartjam@aol.com Subject: Re: David MacGregor, Best Looking Ship The last address I have for David MacGregor Plans is 12 Upper Oldfield Park, Bath BA2 3JZ, England. My nomination for the best looking ship ever is the battlecruiser HMS Renown as rebuilt in 1939. Beauty is definitely in the eye of the beholder! Art Nicholson ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "Foeth" Subject: Re: Best looking ship class Sorry, has to be a Bismarck, definitely! Or a Scharnhorst. Evert-Jan Foeth ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Kurt Van Dahm Subject: Midway Models Just checked recent Model Boat Magazine (similar to Marine Modeling) from England and found no mention/ad from Midway Models. Kurt Van Dahm Westmont, IL USA ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "Foeth" Subject: Re: DKM Colors The RAL-number are from a book called "Anstriche und Tarnanstriche der Deutschen Kriegsmarine" by Jung, Abenthrod and Keller, Bernard & Graefe Verlag (publisher). It's a german book with english captions on general german ship colors, including commercial ships, used during the war. Therefore the book cannot be used to get the right pattern for a ship. It's strictly for the real KM nutter. It does not give you complete scheme's for each ship, but shows different patterns. Note, the Kriegsmarine did not use these RAL numbers officially before 1944, only the names of the colors, and are therefore not always documented. Given RAL numbers are Number name English name RAL7016 dunkelgrau anthracite grey RAL7024 dunkelgrau graphite grey RAL7000 hellgrau squirel grey RAL7001 hellgrau silver grey RAL8013 rotbraun - RAL3010 rot *now RAL3020 traffic red RAL3011 braunrot brown red RAL9005 schwarz jet black RAL5004 dunkelblau black blue RAL8011 braun nutbrown RAL6005 dunkelgrun moss green RAL1011 ockergelb brown beige RAL1003 gelb *now RAL1023 traffic yellow RAL9002 weis grey white RAL9003 elfenbein - RAL9006 silber white aluminium * The german name of the color is the name as used in WWII. There are modern german names for these colors today. The modern english names are given As for the colors of the Bismarck type stripes (Bismarck, Prinz Eugen, Lutzow, Leipzig, Nurnberg, Koln ): Hull dunkelgrau (Lutzow mittelgrau), Superstructure hellgrau, stripes schwarz and weis, False bows and turrettops and steel decks dunkelbluagrau (no RAL code mentioned) Funnelcap Bismarck white aluminium, Tirpitz&Lutzow schwarz. Tirpitz is known (not from this book) to have a dazzle painting sceme of grey white, jet black, and green, with the green on one side only (42/43) Evert-jan Foeth ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "Foeth" Subject: Used to be Shades of Grey but now goes for the more attractive Let's see: 1936A Destroyers; Z-23-30: Z24, I have one picture of the destroyer in a Tirpitz kind of dazzle painting(!). It is said to be symmetrical. Need the picture? There is this great book on german destroyers, but alas, a severe lack of money is keeping me from buying everything I see. Evert-Jan Foeth ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "Denis G. Campbell" Subject: USS Enterprise CVA65 I am new to shipmodeling (and to SMML) although I have been a general modeler for years - mainly aircraft and miniature furniture and roomboxes (you know - dollhouse stuff) which my wife and I have been doing for almost 20 years now. I just finished a model of USS Hornet CV8 on it's way to deliver Jimmy Doolittle's 16 B25's to Tokyo in April 1942 and set it on a base covered with a sea diorama and covered it with a plexiglass cover - all made by me except for the Tamiya 1/700 kit of the ship and aircraft. I don't know when I have enjoyed something so much. I picked up an (old?) Revell 1/720 kit of USS Enterprise (the new one CVA65) and want to build it but would like to do some research. If anyone knows where I can obtain a copy of "USS Enterprise in Detail and Scale" by Bert Kinzey - now out of print, but originally published by Kalmbach, I think - I would appreciate it. I would also like to get a 1/700 kit of USS John F> Kennedy if anyone knows where I might find that - but I want the real JFK with the slanted stack, not just a Nimitz class carrier with the JFK name. As you probably gather, I have an interest in carriers and hope to some day build the history of carriers in models starting with the Langley (or, if I can research it, the first British Carrier in WWI - was it HMS Furious?) Thanks for any help Denis Campbell, Avon Massachusetts,USA ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: SeaPhoto@aol.com Subject: Re: Heller 'Le Soirot'/for SMML >> Does anyone know anything about the quality of Heller's recent 1/200 'le Soirot' research vessel? Also does anyone have any idea of any sources for more details for the vessel? << It's pretty good. A fellow I know took the model, filled it with plaster, and cut it into sections to trace, and then blow up to 1/48th scale plans for a R/C Model. Much later he obtained a set of Blueprints by calling Fremer in France, the company or organization that owns her, and found they were quite close to his own. He found a photo of her in Ballard's first book on the discover of the Titanic. Kurt Greiner SeaPhoto ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: SeaPhoto@aol.com Subject: Re: Larger Scales - Dean's Marine >> I'm wounded that you would forget us!!.... http://www.afp.zip.com.au/models.html. << Sorry about that, just showing my Western Hemespheric bias, I guess Do redeem myself, I will visit your site forthwith! Kurt Greiner SeaPhoto ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: SeaPhoto@aol.com Subject: Re: Midway Models? I checked the lastest Marine Modelling and the 2/98 issue of Model Boats - no mention of Midway Models in either. Too bad, as I recall they had some interesting offerings. Of course, they might still be in business, just not advertising in those two magazines. Kurt Greiner SeaPhoto ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: KDur597268@aol.com Subject: Jeanne d'Arc Hello folks - I'm hoping someone here can clear up some confusion for me. I've got the Heller 1/400 "Jeanne d'Arc", configured as a helicopter carrier. I had read a number of references in various naval histories to an "old training cruiser" of the same name. Now I have run across some pictures in "Cruisers" by Antony Preston. These pictures show pretty much the ship that is in the kit. The kit instructions, however, say that the ship portrayed in the kit is a "replacement" for the "original cruiser" of the same name. One of the photos, captioning the ship "the old training cruiser" (pg 166), in the Preston book also says she was replaced by a ship of the same name in 1964. So was she replaced by a ship of identical design? Preston says she had a "distinguished 30-year career." So she must have been launched in the thirties. Now I know there was a big French cruiser of WWI vintage called Jeanne d'Arc, and I assume the "training cruiser" was named after her. But what of "Jeanne d'Arc III of 1964?" Are there really two ships of extremely similar appearance? Hoping someone can clear this up. Thanks in advance. Ken P.S. I'd have to put in a "Best Looking Ship" vote for 1) Fletchers and 2) Z-Boats. Although I agree, those Iowas are powerful good lookin'. What class was the "New Mexico" and where can I see a pic? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: SantMin@aol.com Subject: Ship colors Modeling Japanese ships is not my own particular interest, although I am interested in all things nautical. I have a copy of SCALE MODEL WARSHIPS by K.Izumi in my library and while I cannot read it, the drawings are spectacular. What I want to mention is that the book jacket if divided into four shades of gray and in English at the top is says "Color of Ships". In each band of gray it says "Maizuru Navy Yard", "Kure Navy Yard", "Yokosuka Navy Yard". and "Sasebo Navy Yard", each band getting a darker gray. I am told that you could tell where a ship was painted by this color scheme. Anyone know about this? Bob Santos ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: Mark Seitz Subject: Best looking In my VERY humble opinion, I have to put my money on HMS Tiger, the battlecruiser Cheers, Mark ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: Ives100@aol.com Subject: Re: Typhoon >> But the primary problem (and this hasn't been confirmed, mind you) is that the Typhoon is a double-hull (catamaran?) submarine, and the underside is concave and reflects this. << Wow! This is really news to me. I've seen lots of R/C models of the Typhoon at the SubCommittee Subregatta, and never a catamaran type hull. It is somewhat double hulled back by the screws. I also saw the photos of it in drydock, and don't recall a catamaran type hull. There has been speculation for some time that the sub does have two parralel inner hulls. As you know, the Soviet built subs tend to favor double hull design, with all the associated freeflood holes, whereas all of the US modern boats are single hull design (i.e., you are looking at the pressure hull). Do you have a reference for this? Tom Dougherty ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: Douglas Bauer Subject: Mission Capistrano In reference to the Mission Capistrano: I've been working for several months trying to convert the Revell kit into a decent representation of a WW2 USN fleet oiler...it ain't an easy task! I've made extensive use of Thomas Wildenberg's "Grey Steel and Black Oil", a definitive volume on the history of underway refueling in the U.S. Navy. The Revell kit provides a basic hull for the T2-SE-A1 oiler, but most everything else will have to be scratchbuilt. The main deck and its molded on details should be discarded and constructed of sheet styrene, rod, and tubing. Don't forget the parabolic main deck, which was intended to eliminate oil pooling if spilled, directing it to the gunwales and over the side. I re-did the after superstructure and the bridge, using photos from Wildenberg as reference. Much of the detail work is conjecture, since it was difficult to find a lot of photos of one particular vessel...so I decided on a "generic" oiler. I also used info from Bluejacket's T2 tanker plans for the main deck and superstructures...this took a LOT of time and planning...unfortunately, I didn't do ENOUGH pre-planning and it made some things very difficult later in construction. As I said, there's loads of scratchbuilding: cargo winches, the bridge needs extensive re-working, cargo/UNREP booms and tackle, all the main deck stuff, a new anchor windlass and warping winches, masts, bow anchors, hawse lips, etc. One of the most challenging aspects has been getting all the running rigging to align...this is where the pre-planning comes in handy. All in all, this has evolved into quite a project...it's not one you'll finish in a couple weeks. I'd like to find another unbuilt kit and do it again, keeping in mind all the little mistakes and oversights...it could truly be a very striking model. I wonder if any modelers out there have considered the feasibility of altering the Revell hull (or any hull, for that matter) to produce a hull which could be used for USS Cimarron or even Navasota. I'm relatively new to shipmodeling, and all my past experience is with styrene. Doug Bauer ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Dave Carter Subject: AVON IPMS Bath Show O.K. Guys, So who's coming to say "Hi" next Sunday at the Pavillion in Bath? Come and I.D. yourself on the WEM stand anyhow, and, as usual, we'll get the "Royal Navy Camouflage of WW2 Debating Society" up and running again, as we did last year! We'll also have some special offers on WEM kits, brass, PROFESSIONAL and AIRSTRIKE items. Look forward to seeing of you all there! Cheers Caroline "Shiphead" Carter/nWMo and WEMblie ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Pacific Front Subject: RE: Plastic Injection Ship Kits One of the bigger resin manufacturers is seriously investigating developing some plastic injection kits of naval subjects. These would be high quality kits with photoetch included. I have suggested that they consider, because of the absolute necessity to produce models that would sell very well, the following: 1. US Navy Destroyer escorts in 1/350 scale - Buckley, Cannon, Rudderow and Butler types. These could be built off of 1 basic hull. 2. US Navy Pre/Early WW 2 Battleships in 1/700 scale 3. US Navy WW 2 Light and Heavy Cruisers in 1/700 scale, most likely New Orleans and Brooklyn/St.Louis classes. 4. I also think a series of high quality submarines in 1/350 or 1/200 scale might do very well, for instance, a Gato/Balao, pre-Gato classes, "V" boats Nautilus & Narwhal, an S boat, German Type VII, etc. 5. A series of 1/350 scale US Navy WW2 small combatants/auxiliaries such as AMs, PCs, tenders, Liberty Ship, AO, etc. At this time, they do not wish to consider larger or more complex models. Send your ideas on this subject to the SMML group. Remember, sales are a critical factor, so your pet projects may be extremely interesting, but not necessarily economically practical. Thanks, Bill Gruner Pacific Front Hobbies ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume