Subject: SMML16/08/98VOL273 Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 22:46:07 +1000 (EST) shipmodels@wr.com.au --------------------------------- Thanks for having SMML at your home, why not stop by our home at: http://warship.simplenet.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- **NOTE FROM LIST MISTRESS** Greg is not feeling well tonight, so I have brought tonights ship list to you on his behalf. Thanks for your patience, and hopefully Greg will be back on deck soon. Brooke (List Mistress-SMML) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Paint and 1:350 wants 2: Re: CGN's 3: Re: 1/1200 kits 4: A Spanish Vittorio Veneto 5: Re: Aurora USS GUADALCANAL 6: Re: Aurora USS ENTERPRISE CV-6 7: Prinz Eugen 8: Re: Round Russians 9: USN Paint matches 10: Re: Russian Round Hull Type Coastal Battleships 11: Bismark Turret Colors. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Re: Custom Photo-etching 2: USN new web site ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Jens H. Brandal" Subject: Paint and 1:350 wants Thank you everyone who helped me out on the info on the Alaska and USN paint mixes. On small scale warships, my preferred method is to spray the models' vertical hull sides, mask the hull and airbrush the deck colour using masks held against the superstructure. This calls for the occasional touching up, and the semi gloss Humbrol paints blend really well between the brush painted areas and the sprayed ones. A final coat of varnish gets rid of any uneven glossiness. As for kits and pieces I'd like to see in 1:350 would be a Nimitz class carrier - injection moulded. Considering Tamiya (the only company I can see being credible of doing this kind of thing) could get a lot of mileage out of this set of moulds, I am surprised it hasn't been done before. Blucher/Prinz Eugen in 1:350 would also be appreciated. For the cottage industries; aircraft ordnance - pylons, drop tanks, landing gear doors and arrester hooks in 1:350 would get my vote. Even in this "large" scale, aircraft look a little bare without them. A Kiev or a Kirov would be nice, but not really likely. A Kirov in 1:700 would be interesting though. Jens ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: PulligS@aol.com Subject: Re: CGN's Noted the notes about the LONG BEACH Was in houston yesterday and saw the Revell kit so I assume its out again. Haven't checked their web site or any of the on line shops tho. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: JohnVCP@aol.com Subject: Re: 1/1200 kits Re: Note from Dave Hess - I agree, 1/1200 "KITS" would be really nice!! I'm getting tired of 'kit-bashing' metal ship models to get the ship I want - as I am just finishing up the Jap CVL "Ibuki" utilizing a 1/1200 metal "Mogami" hull and detailed info from various reference books. I also built a USN "Cruiser Carrier, using a metal hull of a "Brooklyn" US CL and the drawings in the book "Hybred Warships" - turned out rather neat! I have also built the following: RN "G3" battlecruiser, the RN proposed companion BB, the Jap "Amagi" CC and the Jap "No13" BB; in each case using metal hulls (and parts) of other ship models to 'bash' them together. I really like building models of "never weres" and the off-beat. Current collection of METAL ship models (in 1/1200 and 1/1250) numbers over 1300. Plastic would be easier! It would be great if someone (Hint, hint) would produce a line of 1/1200 scale WW2 warships THAT ARE NOT READILY AVAILABLE by the existing manufacturers; ie., the Russian warships and warships of some of the minor navies that participated. John Heasel St. Clair Shores, MI ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: YHSAIO@aol.com Subject: A Spanish Vittorio Veneto Greetings: I'm surprised that nobody has brought up the hypothetical ship topic recently, with all the talk of Japanese superbattleships and tiny ASW corvettes. Let me throw this out in the fray. According to Garzke and Duilin's Axis and Neutral Battleships of World War 2, the Spanish Navy was seriously contemplating the construction of four Vittorio Veneto class ships. According to Messers Garzke and Duilin, the Spanish ships were to be similar except for the AA armament, with the Spanish ship mounting 4.7" heavy AA guns and 20mm, 37 mm, and 40 mm light AA. I have an old Delphis Roma which I am contemplating making into this ship. I assume that a Spanish Veneto would have the Atlantic bow, since construction would start sometime after 1940. Now for some questions about the weapons. (1) Were the Spanish 4.7" guns the same type as used in the German destroyers and where they mounted in gunhouses or turrets. (2) I'm assuming that the Spanish used German light AA, so the 20mm guns would be singles and Flak Vierlings and the 37mm would be twins. What about the 40mm? Could they be Vickers 40mm pompoms, German single 40mm, or Bofors guns? Any help from Spanish modelers would be appreciated. This sounds like an interesting "what if" project and there is evidence for it, so it's no pipe dream and I won't be flamed (hopefully). With any luck, my new Espana or Felipe II (I already have a name for the ship- would the Nationalists use a royal name for one of their ships?) should be sitting on my shelf very soon. Yunchi Hsaio ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: PulligS@aol.com Subject: Re: Aurora USS GUADALCANAL Was someone, the other day looking for the above mentioned kit? I was at a small model show to day and found it. It's been partly built and painted cooper! Brake out the brake fluid [pun intended] looks like the parts are there though. Its in the 1966 box. No instructions. Let me know if you want it [cheap]. Sam Pullig ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: PulligS@aol.com Subject: Re: Aurora USS ENTERPRISE CV-6 Same model as above post, found above model in 1972 box .Any thoughts on building her other than out of the box. She is 1/600 per the box. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: SeaPhoto@aol.com Subject: Prinz Eugen >> If anyone has any specific questions they would like me to ask, please indicate! << Yes! Please ask about the status of the planned salvage efforts. Does anyone think it will happen? Kurt SeaPhoto ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: dhjonespsm@juno.com (Daniel H. Jones) Subject: Re: Round Russians >> The Russians had some sort of perfectly round river "forts" or ships around the turn of the century. Anybody got a lead on drawings or data for these? << Burl. The vessels you are referring to are a pair of coastal defense ships (or floating forts - as the Russians regarded them) called the NOVODOROD and the VICE-ADMIRAL POPOV. These vessels were the creation of Vice Admiral Alexander Popov, for whom the second one was named. NOVOGOROD was built first, laid down in 1872, launched in 1873 completed in 1874. It was armed with two 11" guns mounted at the center in a armored barbette, two 3.4" (80mm), two 2.5 pdr., and spar torpedoes. The hull was 101' in diameter with a draft of 13' 6". 8 boilers fed reciprocating steam engines developing 3,000 HP, driving six screws, with a speed of about 6-7 knots. Armor consisted of a 7-9" belt and 9" citadel. The ship was built in sections at St Petersburg, then transported to Nicolaiev where it was assembled. The ship, and her larger sister, were intended to defend the nicolaiev and Dnieper estuary. VICE-ADMIRAL POPOV was an enlarged version of the NOVOGOROD with some improvements. POPOV ws built at Nicolaiev, started in 1874, completed in 1876. The armor was increased with a belt of 4' of wood faced with 7" of iron plate. The main armament was a pair of 12" guns in disappearing mounts in an armored barbette, again mounted at the center of the ship. The secondary armament consisted of eight 3.4", two 1 pdr. (37mm) quick firers, and spar torpedoes. Dimensions were: diameter - 120', draft - 13'6". The POPOV looked much larger in photos, more so than the dimensions would suggest. Engines were similar in layout to those of NOVOGOROD, developing 4,000 Hp, 8 propeller shafts, for a speed of 8 knots. Both ships had large twin funnels. Neither ship was very successful, although they were around for a long time, surviving through WW I. Both were refitted at some time in their careers and had the outer pair of screws removed, reducing their performance by about 20%. This was done to attempt to improve handling, which was reportedly very poor. There are no detailed or reliable plans that I know of, but the Russian archives may yet yield some. There are about 5 good photos published in the west, and several artist's renderings (none of which agree in details). Three of the better photos are published in The Imperial Russian Navy, by Anthony J. Watts, (Arms & Armor press - 1990) and two different views appear in V.T Tomitch - Warships of the Imperial Russian Navy - Vol. 1- Battleships (1968-privately printed) (There was no Volume 2) The Tomitch book has a very good artist's rendering of NOVOGOROD, and a simple plan of VICE ADMIRAL POPOV. The photos are identified correctly in Tomitch (the under construction photo of POPOV in Watts is actually a photo of the NOVOGOROD). Long out of print, apparently Mr. Tomitch retained a small stock of this book, and these were acquired by Bill Gruner of Pacific Front and he is selling them for $30.00 each while supplies last. Incidently, Popov went on to build one more ship to this novel design concept, the royal yacht LIVADIA, built for Czar Alexander II of Russia. The design was done by Popov, but actual construction was undertaken by the British firm of John Elder & Sons of Glasgow. Perhaps because of this, builders drawings survive for the LIVADIA and have been published (over 4 pages in glorious color) in Time-Life's Seafarers series, the volume entitled The Luxury Yachts. Czar Alexander II was assassinated before the ship was delivered and his heirs were less than thrilled with the design. LIVADIA, as far as is known, was never actually used by the Romanov family, and after years of idleness, was scrapped in 1926. Check out the Time-Life volume at your local library - she was certainly an interesting but very weird ship. Daniel Jones Plastic Ship Modeler ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: dhjonespsm@juno.com (Daniel H. Jones) Subject: USN Paint matches. >> You can find Humbrol mixes for USN colors in back issues of Plastic Ship Modeler. These were developed by Randy Short, my partner in developing a set of USN WW2 paint chips that allow the modeler to mix and match using their favorite/available paints. I'm not comfortable with posting the mixes here, since it is now copyrighted material. However, PSM's publisher, Dan Jones, is a list member of SMML, and I'm sure he'll jump in and tell you how to obtain those back issues. Dan...? << Thanks John, and to Jens - sorry, I missed your posting or would have responded earlier. I am not sure where to categorize this response, under discussion, or under the "vendors" label. I'll leave that up to you Greg. Inevitably it is a little of both. The back issue John refers to is PSM 97/3 which includes a half page of formulas for USN Grays from pre-war through 1944. These formulas are matched for Humbrol, Floquil, and Testors Modelmaster paints. Some are a case of "either/or", as suitable colors are not always available in all three paint lines. The matches were formulated by matching to original formulas and to actual paint chips. Copies of this issue are available for $5.00 postpaid (USA) $6.00 postpaid (overseas - air). Order from: Daniel H. Jones Plastic Ship Modeler P.O. Box 2183 Arvada, CO 80001-2183 USA A note about ship colors. I have noted a tendency to disparage the efforts of some who are trying to find out exactly what these colors were. The term "paint nazi" has been used on occasion to describe these individuals. I personally have done very little research in this area as I live in a part of the country where I have no access to primary source material. However, I have been very proud to be able to publish the results of others who ARE doing the research. We are NOT interested in dictating to anyone what colors to paint a model. What we ARE trying to do is to bring the hobby of ship modeling up to speed to match the advantages enjoyed for many years by aircraft and armor builders. They have had trustworthy source material for colors for decades, in an abundance that we can only dream about. PSM has tried to fill this void, and will continue to do so. We have made mistakes, but so did the aircraft and armor guys in the beginning, and we ARE (relatively speaking) only at the beginning. Aircraft and armor modelers do not paint their creations in exact matches for the original color standards any more than ship modelers do. They allow for effects such as weathering, aging, "scale", and a certain amount of "artist's license" - simply for dramatic effect. However, they have always worked in the knowledge of what the original color actually was, and have used this as a point of departure for their artistry. Ship modelers need to have the same information to use as a starting point. Perhaps that is why some of us are perceived as being overly critical - we just want to get it right. I have on occasion gotten criticism because we have emphasized the use of Munzell color matches rather than just picking a hobby color that is close. One reason that we did this is the constant changes we have to put up with from hobby paint manufacturers. Humbrol (for instance) has recently dropped another group of colors, including a few that were cited in past color matches. This is a constant problem, and not just with the Humbrol range. By using paint chips or color standards, this becomes less of a problem as a match can be worked out from whatever paint is available. The color chips referred to by John are well worth investing in. These are the first result of this intense research effort and consist of 20 actual paint chips (not printed) that match the original Navy Yard issued color chips from the Alan Raven collection and from the 1929 Munzell Book Of Color. No serious builder of USN WW II ships should be without this resource. Get them from: Snyder & Short Enterprises 9175 Kiefer Blvd. #224 Sacramento, CA 95826 Daniel Jones Plastic Ship Modeler ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: RCClem@aol.com Subject: Re: Russian Round Hull Type Coastal Battleships Burl Burlingame (buzz@aloha.net) asked about the round coastal battleships built by the Russians: In "Warships of the Imperial Russian Navy, Volume I Battleships", by V. M. Tomitch; 1968, on pages 91, 92 and 93: He lists the statistics for the: Novgorad, commissioned in 1873, 101 ft diameter, 2,700 tons. Two 11" guns. Vice Admiral Popov, commissioned in 1876, 120 ft diameter, 3, 590 tons. Two 12" guns. Only 2 of the planned 10 were built. For reasons that to us seem humorously obvious, they were not very successful. By shrinking the length, or widening the beam until the two are equal, they were able to dedicate a much greater percentage of the total weight to armour on a shallow draft. However, their speed was very slow, and they rolled and pitched excessively. Also, the off-axis recoil of the main guns caused the ships to spin, which could not be countered by the screws! The book has a drawing, 3 pictures and a plan/side view (without dimensions) of the Popov. It is an excellent resource if you are interested in Russian pre- and post-Dreadnought BBs. I bought the book from Pacific Front Hobbies (1-425-821-2564) for $30. Rob Mackie reviewed it on the Warships page. Roger Clemens Hinsdale, Illinois ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Donna Ogilvie Subject: Bismark Turret Colors. Dave; I am researching the Z-10 and the Z-33 for upcoming monographs / books aimed at both the amateur historian and the molder. I have done extensive research including a review of the existing deck logs and have found some glaring errors of fact in the main english language book on German Destroyers. The one area that I have been having trouble with is contacting former members of the crews of these ships( or any of the other DD's for that mater). When you go to the reunion would you see if any of them served either on one of the DD's or know how to contact anyone who did, or if there is a German equivalent of the Tincan Sailors association. I can provide a list of Commanding officers for both ships if it would be helpful. I can be contacted at gogilvie@home and can provide both my address and phone no. diirectly to you. Thanks very much for your assistence. Greg Ogilvie ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Custom Photo-etching Flagship Models is offering custom photo-etching service. E-mail me your address and I'll mail you all the information. Dealer inquiries welcome. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Gene Larson Subject: USN new web site I have added the following web site to the Nautical Research Guild's sources list for model builders and researchers based upon a message to me from Dana Wegner, Curator of Models, USN. "Announcing the our Curator of Ship Models web site has finally gone live. It still needs some work." Its address is http://www.dt.navy.mil/cnsm/ Gene Larson, Alexandria, Virginia mailto:genenrg@Naut-Res-Guild.org Nautical Research Guild, Inc. http://www.Naut-Res-Guild.org "A non-profit, tax exempt, educational organization with international membership, dedicated to maritime research and accurate ship model building." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume