Subject: SMML18/08/98VOL275 Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 20:46:13 +1000 (EST) shipmodels@wr.com.au --------------------------------- Thanks for having SMML at your home, why not stop by our home at: http://warship.simplenet.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Gibbs and Cox Models 2: Gibbs and Cox 3: Re: Seawolf paint 4: Re: SSN575 5: Re: Los Angeles class subs (USS Hampton) 6: Something New 7: Injection Kits Wish List/Scale Issues 8: Re: Round Russians 9: Re: Waterline on a sub 10: HMS Buttercup 11: Gibbs and Cox Models 12: 1/720 CHARLES DEGAULLE ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Re: PSM/US Camou/New arrivals ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Mike Settle Subject: Re: Gibbs and Cox Models >> Pardon if you have seen this request on a newsgroup, but I am trying to determine the location of ship models by the firm of Gibbs and Cox in the US. If you know where one of these extrodinary models is on display, or stored, could you please post or let me know? I hope to put together a list. << A lot of them are owned by the U. S. Navy. Check out the following for more info: http://www.dt.navy.mil/cnsm/faq_09.html Mike Settle ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: BEN8800@aol.com Subject: Re: Gibbs and Cox >> Pardon if you have seen this request on a newsgroup, but I am trying to determine the location of ship models by the firm of Gibbs and Cox in the US. If you know where one of these extrodinary models is on display, or stored, could you please post or let me know? I hope to put together a list. << There are a number of the G & C models is the Mariner's Museum in Newport News, VA. Also they did a number for the Navy. Some probably in the David Taylor Model Basin. Also, I believe the big battleship models were done by G & C and they are in the Smithsonian Institute. Ben Lankford ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Seawolf paint I just got the Viking Models new kit of the 1/350 scale Seawolf and i had a question. Submarines are not my specialty and I want to know if the Seawolf was the usual hull red below the waterline like other ballistic and attack subs? Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Ives100@aol.com Subject: Re: SSN575 A quick note about the Seawolf SSN575. The old Aurora kit is not accurate at all, as David Wells (Hi, David!) pointed out. Back when this kit was released, "atomic submarines" were in the headlines, and getting a plastic model kit out the door was top priority. Accuracy was not high up on the list, as witnessed by the Revell Nautilus SSN 571 abortion. Slap a label on it and sell it. In their defense, people were not very concerned about accuracy in the '50's (plastic kits were novel) and not much real information was available, although pictures certainly were!! Although the SSN 575 was the sister ship to the Nautilus, she was used as a test bed for the (largely unsuccessful) sodium reactor. She was built beside the Nautilus at Electric Boat, but her external appearance was quite different! She was the only US Nuclear submarine built with a step sail, similar to the EB Guppy conversions of fleet boats. In addition, she was one of only two US nuclear subs built with a WWII-like conning tower in the sail, which was the attack center (quiz question- name the other US nuclear sub with a conning tower). The Seawolf also had the sonar array atop her bow (rather than in the forefoot, as in Nautilus), leading to a prominent upward slope and high flat bow. Again, this was an external feature quite different from Nautilus. Internal layout was not much different than Nautilus. The compact sodium reactor was decidely difficult to engineer and maintain, and the sub never ran at full power due to leaks in her superheaters from corrosive sodium. After runs, the water surrounding the sub would glow blue from Cerenkov radiation for a short time in port, as the sodium lost its' radioactivity (OOH, what a great diorama idea!!). After her sodium reactor was replaced with a PWR in '59-60, she soldiered on until 1987, but was really not a front line ASW vessel. She supposedly did some interesting "work" in intelligence gathering (Ivy Bells) later in her career, even got a set of thrusters! She was cut up last year at Puget Sound. There has never been a good, accurate model of this ground breaking, unique looking submarine. I, for one, would love to have one. Tom Dougherty ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Ives100@aol.com Subject: Re: Los Angeles class subs (USS Hampton) >> Now I have some questions about L.A. class subs: 1. I would tend to think they don't paint the rubber tiles, but what about other areas underwater that wouldn't be tiled, such as around the screw, or on the lower part of the sonar dome? Any ideas? 2. Any tips on building the DML USS Hampton kit? I know what to do to the kit above the waterline, but what about below it? Any construction problems to watch for? << Ahhh, back from vacation, and sub questions on SMML!! Most of my answers come from SubCommittee material, reference books such as Friedman's "US Submarines since 1945", and personal observations. Don, The DML USS Hampton kit is a strange beast. DML went to some trouble to correct the problems with its' 1:350 Dallas kit, but created some new ones with this kit. First, the stern on the kit has to go, and be replaced with the new stern provided in the kit. After careful measuring, you can either scribe it off, or use a jeweller's saw. The biggest previous error, the vertical endplates on the stern plane are absent from the new stern piece. THERE ARE NO VERTICAL FINS ON THE STERN PLANES OF LA CLASS BOATS!!! This was the biggest error in the preceding kit (and boy, it is everywhere, from the Clancy book "Submarine!", the movie "Hunt for Red Oct.", many books and even Jane's 688I computer game). These fins were on the preceding Sturgeon class attack boats and the Ohios, and I guess they got "carried over" in somebody's speculative drawing. I have seen a half dozen LA boats in drydock at Groton, and none of them have these vertical tailplate fins. The "new" stern also has the correct configuration for the stern diving planes; the forward portion does not move, and there is a hinge region about 5/6th of the way out to the tip. Also, drill out or replace with brass tubing the two solid rods projecting from the tips of the stern planes; these represent the deployment tubes for the towed array. The kit comes with two propellers; the older, incorrect one is smaller and has the pitch set in the WRONG direction. Use the larger prop, which would turn clockwise as viewed from the stern. The prop blades are given an interesting crescent twist, meant to depict the measures incorporated into the LA class blades to silence them (reduce "blade rate" low frequency noise, which propagates well under water). Moving to the bow- now this is where it gets real sad. OK, DML bosses say let's depict a late class (688I) LA boat. Let's incorporate the VLS tubes! As nearly as I can tell, they got ahold of the VLS tube layout for the prototype VLS boat, USS Providence (SSN 719), a one-off, unique VLS arrangement. Now, Providence started a limited number of so-called Flight 2 boats (SSN 719-725). These were the basic LA design with sail mounted dive planes and VLS tubes. It wasn't until SSN 751 that the 688I class (meant to be depicted in the Hampton kit) came along. Providence had an unusual VLS tube arrangement of 3 inboard, 3 outboard on either side. All other LA class boats ( SSN 720-726 and 751-773) with VLS are 2 outboard, 4 inboard on either side. So, you really need to either 1.) depict Providence, or 2.) do some plastic surgery. The "missing" inboard hatch goes in the space between two of the hatches, and the most forward outboard hatch needs to go. I think that carefully measuring and drilling the 4 corners for the 2 missing hatches, followed by careful scribing to connect them and open the hatch up, may be the best way to go. Fill in the wrong hatches with sheet styrene from within the hull, then putty up to hull level. Look on page 57-58 of Clancy's "Submarine" for the proper VLS arrangement (I have better references, but this one is widely available). Also, I would refrain from having any of the VLS hatches open; as you can see on page 58 of Clancy, there is a complicated dome shaped watertight pressure hatch articulated onto the upper hull hatch. This is not provided in the kit, and would be difficult to fabricate. There is also a prominent set of 4 freeflood vents just in front of and below the outboard VLS tubes, absent from the model. Lots of other "nitpicky" things wrong with the kit. Lose the prominent cleats on the centerline aft of the sail with sandpaper. Fill in the two dimples on the sail for the sail diving planes (unless you are doing an early 688 or a Flight 2 boat). The torpedo doors are not tapered as on the model; they are rectangular (rotating shutters). Some fit problems reported with the bow planes. I agree that the pebbly non-skid walking surface on the deck is really way out of scale. The subs use a material a lot like the driveway filler with sand in it for this non-skid surface. If you really want to be a nitpicker, you can scribe in the many access hatches on the sail of the LA class that permit access to the inner workings of the masts; I have the plans for these (not recommended if you want to keep your sanity). Finally, the later class (688I) boats may have a set of anhedrals between the lower rudder and stern planes, similar to Seawolf (SSN-21). These carry countermeasures in a tip mounted canister, and may help with the snap roll problem that has limited the envelope of maneuvering to some minor degree. Also, the propeller has a ring connected to the blade tips, apparently to reduce tip vortices (noise). It has been reported in Friedman that USS Hartford (SSN 768) may have a protoype pumpjet. [I saw Hartford "slide" at EB, and the tail area was shrouded in blue canvas; but then they all are shrouded when exposed, as in drydock]. As for painting. When launched, these boats are rather bright red up to the waterline, and flat black above that point, with a prominent hull number. Once in service, they are flat black (which gets a little "chalky" from salt water; sort of a very, very dark gray) from mid-hull up and red from mid-hull down. I have seen several boats in drydock at Groton with this scheme (and NO VERTICAL ENDPLATES ON THEIR STERNPLANES!!). On the 688I boats I have toured, the anechoic tiles are dull black, except when wet. Plimsol (sp?) numbers are present on operational boats, no other identifiers on the hull. I'm sure I'll think of more details later, but his should keep you busy. BTW, if you want a really beautiful 1:700 model of an LA class boat, Ralph Ratcliffe produces an exquisite, dead-on accurate one in urethane for $20 (+ shipping). Not much to assemble here, but a very pretty and accurate hull with delicate scribings. You get a choice of early or late 688 sail (sail mounted or forward planes), a set of anhedrals, and two props, including the "ringed-thing". He also produces a Sturgeon ( $15- no assembly, just add the prop) and a Seawolf ($ 20- SSN 21), just add the pumpjet. Not much to put together, but beautiful kits. Challenge is to paint them carefully, so the delicate scribing isn't lost! I am mounting all three in echelon formation on a single piece of oak. Tom Dougherty ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "Shaya Novak" Subject: Something New Dear SMMLer's Well ship fans I found an interesting ship model site. http://www.arrakis.es/~mny/directory.html Shaya NBH ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Felix Bustelo Subject: Injection Kits Wish List/Scale Issues Hello all, I was on vacation last week, so I just caught up with the SMMLs that I missed. Sadly, I did not go anywhere on my vacation other than the Home Depot to supply some home improvement projects, but I did get started on the USS Constitution! Anyhow, here are my late entries for Bill Gruner's request for injection subjects - all 1/350 scale Any Jutland-era warships - HMS Lion, SMS Seydilitz (spelling?) - from the Royal and German Navies. I think that Revell Germany had success with the 1/350 Emden/Dresden (I got the Emden), so there is some demand. The USS Olympia and Maine and other Spanish-American War vessels. How about the A-B-C ships from the 1880's - The armored cruisers Atlanta, Boston and Chicago - which were the prototypes to the Great White Fleet. Very esoteric subjects but they would be fun to build. While the focus remains on warships, some ocean liners subjects would be great. Any new kit of a liner in 1/350 would be a dream come true. Loren Perry has the PE sets to go with it. A 1/350 scale Carpathia (the ship that rescued the few Titanic survivors) would probably sell like hotcakes, since it would complement the Academy/Minicraft kit and there are a lot of Titanic model fanatics out there (just check out the Titanic Model website (http://titanic-model.com/) for proof. Anyhow, I would certainly buy any liner kit in 1/350 scale if released. As far as scales are concerned, I agree with Keith Butterley, 1/600 is the best small scale for me. I love the old Airfix kits and would love to see them release a few new subjects in that scale. They are re-releasing the Canberra. If they would only re-release the Queen Elizabeth I to go with my Revell Queen Mary... sigh. Greg, great to hear that you are ship-shape again and bravo to Brooke for pinch hitting. Cheers, Felix Bustelo ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Erwin Van Deynze Subject: Re: Round Russians >> The Russians had some sort of perfectly round river "forts" or ships around the turn of the century. Anybody got a lead on drawings or data for these? << The idea for the round ships comes from a Scottish shipbuilder, John Elder. Advantage of the design is the maximum stability at a minimal draught. The idea was taken over by the Russian vice-admiral Popov, responsible for the coastal defence on the Black Sea. The class was named 'Popovka' after him. The draught of Monitors was to great, so two circular ships were build, the 'Novgorod' and the 'Popov'. They were both armed with two 20,3 cm guns. The 'Novgorod' was the first and had a diameter of 33 m and a displacement of 2500 tons. She was build at St. Petersburg, dismantled and transported in parts to the Black Sea by train. The boilers were to big and were shipped by sea. After two years, she was finally in the Back Sea in the summer of 1873. The 'Vice-admiral Popov' had a diameter of 40 m, but didn't differ that much from the 'Novgorod'. Both ships had six screws, each with its own engines, They had two engine-rooms, one on the port and one on the starboard-side. The controls were brought together on a central command post. The ships had a lousy course-stability, despite the fact that they had twelve keels of 20 cm. The rudder hardly had any effect at all, because of the heavy turbulences at the stern. Control was thus completely dependend on the screws, this made it possible to turn the ship on its own axis !, Quite handy for a gun-platform. Max speed was 6 knots. There was also an imperial yacht, the 'Livadia' built for Tsar Alexander II, at John Elders wharf. It had a more oval shape. I found this information in 'Het Schip Utopia' by Jan F. Röntgen, published by 'De Boer Maritiem', Bussum, The Netherlands. It is a great book, filled with those crazy and one-of-a-kind designs and ships. There are some drawings and etches of the popovkas's in it. I'll try to get my hand on a scanner and send them to you, if you want them, just mail me. Erwin Van Deynze ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Bradford Chaucer Subject: Re: Waterline on a sub >> The Navy then promptly repaints the sub so that the upper half of the hull is all black and the lower section is red. Also all pennent numbers is masked. Props are bronze coloured(or << >> Having been present at the "sliding" of the USS Hartford at Electric Boat, she was indeed painted red up to the waterline. I've seen several LA subs in drydock at the sub base in Groton, and they are red only half way up the hull, with the upper half a chalky dark black. << Half way up the hull of a sub I can understand, but how does one define the waterline? Isn't that kind of oxymoronic? I would assume that the waterline could be anywhere from where the sub would settle with all tanks dry and empty of all crew, supplies etc, to somewhere above the conning tower!!! Regards, Bradford Chaucer ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Dave Carter Subject: HMS Buttercup Please... Could anyone out there supply a pictorial/photographic ref. of HMS Buttercup (Flower Class) in camouflage? We have drawn a serious blank here! ANY help would be much appreciated by Dave and I.. Also, finally, after much pestering by a whole bunch of WEMblies, David Jane, the U.K. IPMS president who made the lovely little WEM 1/700 Flower Class master patterns has FINALLY launched himself into a 1/350 Scale Flower.. watch this space for the kit when it finally materialises. Cheers Caroline Carter/nWMo and WEMblie ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Michael Eisenstadt Subject: Gibbs and Cox Models Kurt: Some of the Gibbs and Cox models (such as the USS Missouri) are in the Navy Museum at the Washington Navy Yard; I've admired the latter numerous times, and its a beaut. Best bet, check out the new website organized by Dana Wegner, curator of models for the US Navy. The website is (per yesterdays SMML): or contact Mr. Wegner directly at: wengerd@dt.navy.mil Hope this helps! Best wishes, Mike Eisenstadt ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Martin.Lamb@dtf.vic.gov.au Subject: 1/720 CHARLES DEGAULLE Does anyone know if Heller has released the 1/720 Charles DeGaulle ? Thanks. Martin Lamb ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Dave Carter Subject: PSM/US Camou/New arrivals Hi there, Sorry for any delays/unanswered E-Mails etc.. Dave and I took a trip last Thursday to the Edinburgh Military Tattoo..amongst other things, sailors of the Russian Navy performed extremely well for us! This was followed by a couple of days on the West Coast. Anyhow.. >> how to obtain those back issues. Dan...? << Just to say that if you are outside the U.S. (and would therefore have to send a money order to Dan at PSM for back issues), it works out cheaper to obtain individual back issues from White Ensign Models as we can take credit card payment. Back issues are available at 4.50 pounds in the U.K. and 5.00 to Europe by airmail... the rest of the world is 5.50 pounds airmail. We have stocks of all at the moment, from Issue 94/1 up to the current issue 17 (98/1) and also operate a worldwide subscription. >> The color chips referred to by John are well worth investing in. These are the first result of this intense research effort and consist of 20 actual paint chips (not printed) << Yep, they ARE excellent... we also stock these at 9.32 pounds plus shipping at cost. BTW, Just arrived are the WEM "FLIGHTDECK" 1/350 Phantoms (RAF/Royal Navy NOT the U.S. planes). These come complete with etched brass and are the first of the 1/350 Fixed Wing range to be released... 2 aircraft at 7.62 pounds. WEM 1/350 decals for Modern British aircraft contain hundreds of Lo-and Hi-Viz markings and are priced at 2.77 pounds. Collectors are going seriously nuts for these little gems! Also in the WEM "AIRSTRIKE 700" range, we have just received the following new castings today.. WEM AS 7088 Seamew(x3) WEM AS 7089 Albatross (x3) WEM AS 7099 P26 (x5) Priced at 2.95 per bag.. all post free. Our 1/700 Sussex will be released within the week... Cheers Caroline Carter/nWMo and WEMblie P.S. Attn: that Mr Fowler feller... your Sheff (and several others) was posted airmail 5th Aug, so watch that mailbox! Alberto... congrats on the superlatives... I KNEW you'd find a few more once you saw it! White Ensign Models Tel: 01432 820403 Fax: 01432 820830 http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/avenue/xdt22/ FREE WORLDWIDE AIRMAIL SHIPPING ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume