Subject: SMML01/09/98VOL289 Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 20:11:38 +1000 (EST) shipmodels@wr.com.au --------------------------------- Thanks for having SMML at your home, why not stop by our home at: http://warship.simplenet.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Colour scheme for French warships in the mid 1950's 2: Re: Monogram 1:600 Kitty Hawk 3: Re: WHICH KIT 4: Re: Scale difference/700 scale Gulf war A/C 5: Airfix voting - I'll volunteer 6: Re: Airfix Inputs: Quit pushing Invincible on us...Put it to a fair vote! 7: Re: Monogram 1:600 Kitty Hawk 8: Tirpitz/Bismarck/Mystery Kit again 9: Re: Richelieu Camouflage 10: Pegasus 11: Airfix Petition 12: White metal aircraft wings 13: S.S. United States 14: JFK 15: An Apology plus Rephrasing of my Invincible Comments 16: Wish List Nausea ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Pics Questionaire/Volume Numbers? 2: FOR SALE: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Steve Sobieralski" Subject: Colour scheme for French warships in the mid 1950's Can anyone tell me what the color scheme for French warships in the mid 1950's was? I have a half-completed 1/100 Surcouf (destroyer not the WW2 submarine) from a French kit that I put away years ago due to lack of information and reference material. The only source I have for colors is the Heller instructions for their 1/400 plastic kit which lists dark grey for the decks/roofs; light grey for the hull and vertical surfaces; mid grey for the forecastle(?); black for boottop, upper masts, gun barrels and bollards; alternating orange and blue stripes for life rafts; grey for oared boats; and white with wood cabins for motorboats. Is this correct and what or where does the color change on the forecastle refer to? I'm also curious about accuracy of the "decorative" touch of the black gun barrels and bollards. Are there any available reference sources on these ships? Thanks for any information. On another subject: A company called Select Hobby Supplies is unique to my knowledge in offering Bluejacket kits at a discount. Their latest flyer lists the 1/192 Fletcher at $194, 1/48 Elco 80' PT at $170, and 1/192 Gambier Bay at $231. Substantial savings from the $258, $227 and $309 Bluejacket catalog prices. They also have the 1/192 victory ship, liberty ship, T-2 tanker and 1/96 four stack destroyer at similar savings. I've ordered from them and have been very satisfied. Their address and phone number are: PO Box 177, E. Glastonbury, CT, USA, (860)633-9064 Steve Sobieralski ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: drwells@hogpa.ho.att.com (David R Wells) Subject: Re: Monogram 1:600 Kitty Hawk Dennis wrote: >> I had heard that Monogram's kitty hawk is actually the JFK and was apparently issued under several names although the JFK was a one ship class and it really cannot be used to represent other ships. << At least not without modification. I tried to modify one into an America once..... >> About a week ago, I came across one of the Monogram kitty hawks (kit no. 3007) and picked it up for $10 and have been studying it since, referring to Kinzey's book and it seems to be a fair representation of JFK (will need some correction and scratch-building, but all seems do-able) However, the box bills it as 1:600 scale and my measurements show it to actually be 1:800. << I calculated 1/789, but close enough. >> I am really surprised at Monogram first, claiming it to be kitty hawk and second, misrepresenting the scale. << I think that they don't know/don't care. >> Now, answer me this all of you out there. If I use 1:700 accessories will they be glaringly oversize? I think railings and radars will be OK but how about aircraft? << The railings will be somewhat oversized, IMHO. >> And does anyone know of a scource of modern (Gulf War era) naval aircraft in 1:700 scale? << I can do a little better than that. ARII makes a line of 1/800 carriers. Why they chose that scale, I don't know. Their carriers include a fairly nice aircraft set. If you buy a Midway, the F-14s and some other aircraft that don't belong on a Midway can be "transferred" to your JFK. David R. Wells ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: drwells@hogpa.ho.att.com (David R Wells) Subject: Re: WHICH KIT Mark K. wrote: >> I am a (very) new modeler and I have enjoyed reading this forum over the past six weeks. My interest lies in WW1 and WW2 ships. One thing I have read within the lines here is that the kits available to a recruit like me in my local hobby shop, i.e. the Revilles, Airfix, Tamiya etc...from what I hear are not terribly authentic at all times. Now, as much as I like the picture on the box, does this mean that the ship within is terribly accurate? According to a lot of the correspondents to this list, not very. << Many manufacturers vary widely. Airfix and Revell produce kits that range from junk to pretty darn good. The trick is knowing which ones are which. >> I wish to model ships with accuracy, I would hate to go out to buy a 1/350 Tirpitz (for e.g.), only to find that the brand I have chosen is a 'dud', i.e. it is not a true and accurate representation of the real ship. << In that case, stay away from the Lindberg 1/350 Bismarck/Tirpitz ! ;-) >> Would it be possible to use the expertise that resides here to put together a list of kits that are accurate, thereby ensuring that we beginners can get a good start in modeling and feel pride with the authenticity of our choice. << This was the reason we put together Rajen's List. The URL is http://www.navismagazine.com/rajendra.htm It's still free, although it has gotten a bit large. The current version is 305K, and the next one (to be issued someday) is running at 320K. If I ever find the time to break it up into separate files while preserving the search capabilities, I will. The idea was to get out some "conventional wisdom" on all the kits. We haven't got everything covered, but we have quite a bit. Contributions to the List are welcome, as always. David R. Wells ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Scale difference/700 scale Gulf war A/C >> Now, answer me this all of you out there. If I use 1:700 accessories will they be glaringly oversize? I think railings and radars will be OK but how about aircraft? And does anyone know of a scource of modern (Gulf War era) naval aircraft in 1:700 scale? << There is a noticeable difference between 1/600 and 1/700. Also, WEM has recently been turning out a fine batch of mostly British A/C but they have issued a few US subjects as well. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://navismagazine.com/flagship/flagship-models.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Felix Bustelo Subject: Airfix voting - I'll volunteer Hi SMMLers Since Keith Butterley and I sorta started this whole thing, I will gladly volunteer to be vote collector and counter. My idea is to combine the voting with an "e-petition". Send me 3 suggestions for a new subject. Each suggestion will equal one vote - so there is no order of preference for the three subjects. Also send me 3 suggestions for re-releases - again same rules apply. In addition, send me your name and e-mail address. The latter two items will be compiled as the petition. I will send Airfix the top three choices for new kits and re-releases along with the hopefully long list of voters in the form of the petition! Folks, you have until September 30 to send in your votes and add your names to the petition. I will then report the results to the SMML and then write a second letter to Airfix with the results and petition. Ladies and Gentleman, let the voting begin! ******************************* SEND YOUR VOTES TO - mailto:felix.bustelo@ny.frb.org With "Airfix Voting" in the subject line ******************************* I will have to think about my votes and then I will send them in to the SMML with an update in the voting process. Felix Bustelo ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "joseph w. reyna" Subject: Re: Airfix Inputs: Quit pushing Invincible on us...Put it to a fair vote! Frank, Fair enough...let's take it to a vote as you recommend. As Frank asked, would someone kindly step forward to register votes for the requested kits? My "new" vote is, surprise, surprise, an HMS INVINCIBLE through deck carrier; my "old" vote is for either AKAGI to complement Nichimo's 1/600 YAMATO/MUSASHI, or HMS ILLUSTRIOUS (WWII vintage). Let the voting begin! Joe Reyna ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "joseph w. reyna" Subject: Re: Monogram 1:600 Kitty Hawk Denis, If you'd like some in-scale aircraft to outfit your Mongram JOHN F KENNEDY, I suggest you check out the Otaki/Arii modern carrier kits in 1/800 scale. They can provide you with an abundance of right-scale aircraft for the JFK. Check with your local hobby shop, or if unsuccessful, some of the internet sites may have them. Monogram appears to have assigned a 1/600 scale to several kits, among them the USS NEW JERSEY (closer to 1/670) and the other super carrier kits they provide. The only close-to-1/600 kits they have, I believe are their DKM BISMARCK/TIRPITZ kits. Cheers. Joe Reyna ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: KDur597268@aol.com Subject: Tirpitz/Bismarck/Mystery Kit again Hello all - I like the questions about kit recommendations for newcomers that have come up lateley. Seems like a good heading for FAQ. I know I have those lists in my head for lots of aircraft, but not for ships! As regards my "Mystery Kit", on the assumption that it might be Tirpitz, I bought a 1/700 Aoshima Tirpitz for $20.00. To be honest I thought I was getting a Tamiya kit - and therefore a reliable reference - because of the style of the box art. I know, READ what it says, but that's the way it goes sometimes. Well, Aoshima is NOT known for unfailing accuracy in their aircraft kits, and this kit has a stern of much more pointed shape than the "Mystery Kit," which is quite rounded. So the questions should be obvious: is the Aoshima Tirpitz accurate? If so, then the mystery kit is not her. So... I wish I could afford an expensive ship reference library - and I do have the Schiffer books on Bismarck and Tirpitz on order - but it's bad enough with planes, so for now I have to rely on y'all's expertise and generosity. I do thank you for it. Ken ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Sanartjam@aol.com Subject: Re: Richelieu Camouflage Hi, There is a great deal of information the Richelieu's wartime (and post-war) camouflage in two French books, Le cuirasse Richelieu Richelieu by Robert Dumas and Richelieu by Rene Sarnet and Eric Le Vaillant. I think the former is out of print, but the latter came out recently and I think is still available from Pacific Front Hobbies and Articles of War in Skokie (near Chicago). Both have camo plans, but only the second book has color; on the other hand, the first one has verbal descriptions of the colors (in French, of course). Hope this helps. Art Nicholson ----------------------------------------------------------------------------10) From: mccormickj@dematic-us.com Subject: Pegasus Mike, I read your posting with interest. Some questions I was wondering. Did the Pegasus use some manner of common hull? I notice that the hull measures out almost exactly with other, small coastal defense boats, notably the then west german type 148's. I got to work with the guys on the Pegasus back in the 80's, when she underwent an overhaul at the Bayonne, NJ shipyards. You folks should be proud, I think I heard the crew invent more than a few new words while rebuilding her. I agree it's a shame that PHM's never were utilzed for what they were intended, but I never could understand why no other foreign navies bought into the idea. Last I heard, Pegasus was sold to a shipyard in SC, for breakup. John, Thanks for your time and response on the logistics of kit production. It was a new way to look at my "wish list", and it's funny how many things fall into place when you look at it from a new perspective. I see you guys are as busy as the proverbial one legged man, but how about a Pegasus. I know that sometimes as a modeler, I enjoy those small, quick projects( I call them therapy kits). Maybe you folks might need a break from all those battleships and heavy cruisers? I know I would buy 6! If it's not in the cards, that's okay also, as I have plenty of projects and choices to choose from. Jens- Ouch! ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Keith Butterley Subject: Airfix Petition Hi guys, Felix Bustelo and I have been discussing snail mail addresses. We thought if any of you would like to add them along with your email addresses, it would truly show that there is international support. We realise that some of you might not be comfortable with that, but please note it is not necessary to send it, only if you want to. Thanks. Keith Butterley ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "David P. Judy III" Subject: White metal aircraft wings Mark, The white metal aircraft wings will cut almost as easy as resin, with a fine tooth x-acto saw! A scriber( the kind that takes a fine hairline of materiel out) can be used to cut the exact outline of the wing seperation. Dave Judy ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: JSTBALL@aol.com Subject: S.S. United States I am about to begin build Glencoe Model' s 1/400 S.S. United States. Any suggestions on P/E sets would be appreciated. Thanks. Jeff Ball ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Ives100@aol.com Subject: RE: JFK >> However, the box bills it as 1:600 scale and my measurements show it to actually be 1:800. I am really surprised at Monogram first, claiming it to be kitty hawk and second, misrepresenting the scale. I spent hours poring over catalogs and searching web sites looking for 1:600 accessories (aircraft, railings, radars etc) and thankfully, picked up a tape measure before I ordered anything (not that there is that much available in 1:600!). Now, answer me this all of you out there. If I use 1:700 accessories will they be glaringly oversize? I think railings and radars will be OK but how about aircraft? << I, too, am VERY surprised at an error that large; representing something at 1:600 and having it be 1:800 is quite a large error. I would have thought that this would earn a big comment in the article. Are you certain of your new measurements? Assuming (and here's where we get into trouble, folks, as I'm a submarine guy!!) the carrier to be around a thousand feet (and change) long, that means that a 1:600 scale is about 20 inches in length, whereas a 1:800 scale is only around 15 inches in length. Huge difference.... As for how oversized will 1:700 parts be on a 1:800? About 12%, if my math serves me. That would probably bother me for some items..... Tom Dougherty ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: AllenFW2@aol.com Subject: An Apology plus Rephrasing of my Invincible Comments I owe Joe Reyna an apology...I sent in a suggestion/comment regarding the lobbying of Airfix to produce new 600 scale kits. I was half asleep when I wrote it & of course, it didn't come out right. So, Joe, I apologize if I implied anything bad. Sorry about the "pushing Invincible" thing especially! Now to business: If you want to lobby Airfix to produce Invincible, please go right ahead (it is your initiative after all), but if you truly want to get a feel for what the "masses" want, perhaps you should poll them...and possibly give in to what they want (many voices are more likely to be heard/heeded than one). Of course, I have a feeling that no one ship will be in the majority, then we'll be back to square one! So, on second thought, maybe you should just go ahead & request Invincible! You also suggested submitting a second and possibly third ship name. How about this instead: Let's request retooling and reissue of an old kit! To be honest, Airfix probably won't spend any quid on new ship kits (they unfortunately seem to love only aircraft nowadays). They might be willing to upgrade a classic (1960's era) ship kit though (i.e.: Hood...Lord knows we can use an AFFORDABLE Hood of decent size). Perhaps Airfix could be persuaded to do for one of their classic kits what Tamiya recently did for their 700 scale Yamato...listen to the masses and upgrade it. Frank Allen ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: JGordon262@aol.com Subject: Wish List Nausea If I read another post about Wish lists, I think I'm going to throw up. I've never really understood this "NEW! NEW! NEW!" mindset that permeates the full spectrum of the modelling community. Sure, when company X releases the new "dream kit" everyone's been waiting for, there is a large collective climax, everyone gladhands each other, then this "dream kit" is soon relegated to the ranks of all the old, boring stuff---these same modellers soon eagerly awaiting The Next Big Thing. Hey People! There is plenty of "old stuff" on the shelves or at swap meets that will challenge your skills if you have the references and moxie to take it on. You want Airfix to make you an Invincible. Oh, what a Great Idea. Why not carve it yourself out of wood, like modellers used to do, and some still do? In my opinion, the real modellers are not we guys who merely assemble and detail kits. Anyone can do that for better or worse. The real modellers are the guys scratchbuilding models from wood, plastic, putty, for sale signs, matchsticks,whatever. I've seen their work, and it makes me realise the true meaning of modelling. The real modellers are the guys making the patterns for all those resin masterpieces you keep requesting. I've seen these patterns and marvel at the skill of the makers. These guys are doing it from plans and putting real workand inspiraton into it. All this "Wish List" frothing about reminds me of my 7 year old son who, despite all he has, bores easily and always wants something new and flashy. So please lay off all this Wish List business and get to work on the kits that are out there. Yours Disgruntledly, JG ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Greg Lee (Listmaster - SMML) Subject: Pics Questionaire/Volume Numbers? Hi Gang, Firstly, just a reminder that, although, technically, I can attach pics/binaries to SMML, It has just been a matter of courtesy, and an un-announced rule that pics aren't distributed through SMML, and that they should be forwarded "off" the list should interest occur from a thread or posting. The main reason for this is, so those people on the list who are not interested in the pics, don't have to wait for them to download with SMML. Is this o.k with Ya'll? Or would you like to discuss this? (NOTE - Until otherwise agreed, Binaries will NOT be published/attached with SMML) Secondly, Henry B got me on those Volume Numbers again, last night was published with #287, it should have been #288, so for those of you archiving, you might want to change it, and for those of you scratching your head wondering why you got 287 and 289, and no 288, you will find you have 2 x 287's. Thanks, Greg ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: b29@ix.netcom.com Subject: FOR SALE: FOR SALE: WARSHIPS OF THE IMPERIAL RUSSIAN NAVY, VOL. 1, by Tomitch. 1968. S.B. Good Cond. Long out of print, and recently offered at $30 on the market, this copy can be yours for $25, plus nominal postage. THE COMMODORES, by Guttridge and Smith. Reprint, Classic of Naval Literature, USNIP. $10. Contact Paul Jacobs at mailto:b29@ix.netcom.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume