Subject: SMML02/09/98VOL290 Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 18:28:43 +1000 (EST) shipmodels@wr.com.au --------------------------------- Thanks for having SMML at your home, why not stop by our home at: http://warship.simplenet.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Sea Wolf SSN 575 2: Knot Interested? 3: Japanese 1:700 kits 4: KM Admiralty Models 5: Re: Tom's 1/350 Yorktown 6: Re: Best beginner kit 7: Re: Wish List Nausea 8: Glencoe SS United States 9: Re: Airfix lobbying 10: Re: Binaries 11: JMSDF ships in Seattle 12: PEGASUS 13: Re: Airfix Petition 14: Re: Tirpitz stern and PHMs 15: Wish List Ad Nauseum 16: Monogram JFK - and scratchbuilding 17: Re: Pegasus hull 18: Warship Volumes 19: Re: Constant scale models. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: **IMPORTANT - AIRFIX VOTING** ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Tom Eisenhour Subject: Sea Wolf SSN 575 A few weeks ago someone wrote about the sodium power plant on the Sea Wolf and asked what was the only other nuclear sub that had a conning tower. I passed this information along to my friend Jim Greer, the last skipper of the Regulus boat Barbero. Jim replied: "Some very interesting data. Please note that the Nautilus and Sea Wolf both traveled about 70,000 miles before being refueled and in the case of Sea Wolf a $20 million pressured water plant replaced the sodium system. "I certainly didn't know about the conning tower. My guess for the other nuclear submarine would be Triton." So which boat was it? Tom Eisenhour ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Steven Rogers Subject: Knot Interested? Being that this is an open forum, the "Full Monty" will fill the ether space. However, there are many issues which hold no interest from my perspective, this does not stop me from enjoying the banter. Knots for example, I could care less. The information about the 39.5 degree wake path was a precious nugget of information. I don't normally do waterline but if I do, I'll be more accurate. Paint colors, as long as I start close, I'm happy. I'm going to add white for scale effect and trash it with pastels anyway. Floquil rules! Airfix? Well I'm so happy they actually started to do kits worth cutting off the sprue in UK subjects, aircraft kits not withstanding, that new ships or old are irrelevant. I don't model anything but 1/350 and we all know there are choices if the cash is there, very limited if you must budget. A very wise friend once said, "Take what you can, and leave the rest". My hat's off to the writer who suggested we aspire to the skills of the modelers who make the patterns for the resin kit makers. Eventually I'm going to try a "HMS Tiger" and "SM Defflinger" sometime in the next century. If White Ensign beats me to the punch, VISA will happily convert dollars to pounds. Rusty, I'm going to need your photo etch services. An aircraft modeler who got his feet wet, Stephen Rogers ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: DKrakow105@aol.com Subject: Japanese 1:700 kits In the wake of Tamiya's Yamato release (no pun intended) I've been wondering why no other model company made a better 1:700 kit of the Yamato in the meantime. Or why are there no Japanese companies making a decent Bismarck? Is there is some kind of shady non-competition agreement among Japanese manufacturers in 1:700 scale? Anybody know what goes on inside the industry in Japan? Just wondering... David Krakow ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: DKrakow105@aol.com Subject: KM Admiralty Models Does anyone know of a list or catalog of all the surviving contemporary dockyard or museum models of Kriegsmarine ships? I have seen some of them, spectacular models in 1:50 scale. At least one is in the USA, others are in Germany and the UK. I understand that some were built by toolmakers at the respective dockyards, and others were built in the late 1930's for museums in Germany. They are, of course, superb references for modellers. David Krakow ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: KelDQ@aol.com Subject: Re: Tom's 1/350 Yorktown I am just getting ready to start construction on this beauty - anybody doing the same willing to compare notes? Maybe we can help each other out. Kelly Quirk ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Best beginner kit For what it's worth, my nomination for a best beginners kit would have to the Tamiya 1/350 scale Fletcher class destroyer kit. It has everything a beginner needs to break into ship modeling. It's a new, well detailed and quite accurate kit. It's very straightforward in it's construction making it an easy build. The overall fit is very good, requireing little putty or sanding and can be painted with either a simple gray scheme or a more complicated camouflage pattern. It's also a rather small subject so the beginner won't lose interest on a long term project like a battleship. The kit can also be modified into several variants for more experienced beginners. Its also a perfect subject to learn how apply photo-etched parts for the same reasons as mentioned earlier. The subject is small, most of the lines are straight which keeps bending and measureing to a minimum. There is no shortage of really nice detail sets for the model either (like ours). A beginner could build the kit, then use it as a learning tool for photo-etch application. Even if the model was put together sub standard because of the beginners skill, it would still build into a nice model. Everything I could ask from a first ship kit. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: ironship@usit.net (Jon Warneke) Subject: Re: Wish List Nausea >> The real modellers are the guys making the patterns for all those resin masterpieces you keep requesting. I've seen these patterns and marvel at the skill of the makers. These guys are doing it from plans and putting real work and inspiraton into it. << Even though I find this to be distasteful (the act of having to disagree), I have to disagree with my esteemed collegue at Warships concerning this point. It's true that patterm makers like myself are inspired and challenged by the development of a pattern from plans, sticks, plastic, resin, and other assorted household refuse that we may find, but the fact that we're able to do that is no incredible feat. My modeling skills are no more advanced than most other modelers with the same amount of experience in this hobby. I have no greater talent than the next guy, nor am I a "real" modeler, as opposed to the modeler that purchases one of the kits I've designed. I may be a "professional" since I do get paid for what I produce, but I'm just like any other modeler. I do it for the enjoyment, and just happen to get paid as a side benefit. To elevate a pattern maker such as myself to some high position in the hobby simply because he can make something from nothing isn't the correct thing to do. My only "exceptional" talent that I may have is the ability to translate a two dimensional drawing into a three dimensional object, and I've found that many can do this without trouble. I look at what I do as an extension of my modeling skills, no different than a modeler building a correct part for a kit. >> All this "Wish List" frothing about reminds me of my 7 year old son who, despite all he has, bores easily and always wants something new and flashy. So please lay off all this Wish List business and get to work on the kits that are out there. << The concept of the wish list is part of the hobby, and points the manufacturer in the direction of what they may want to produce. Just look at what has been produced in the past year in 1/350 scale. You have a South Dakota, North Carolina, Essex, 2 Hoods, Rodney, West Virginia, Graf Spee, etc., and all are because somewhere there was a wish list. It's all part of meeting the demands of the modeler, which as a manufacturer is paramount to success. It may be true that far too many ships are wished for, and that the modeler may or should sit back and enjoy the results of their actions, but that's not the way to continue to get what you may want. You may have all the available kits you desire, and the wish list provides the outlet for what you want next, or what you may want again. However, never look upon this concept as some sort of detrement to the hobby, since it doesn't really take any time away from the participation (unlike this very long-winded essay), and it's beneficial to the manufacturers. All in all, have fun, and put the bizarre and obscure on the lists. You never know... Jon Warneke Iron Shipwrights ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Felix Bustelo Subject: Glencoe SS United States Jeff, Gold Medal Models makes a 1/450 scale merchant ship photo-etch set that would complement the Glencoe kit. I plan to use it on my Glencoe SS France kit. Good Luck Felix Bustelo ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: drwells@hogpa.ho.att.com (David R Wells) Subject: Re: Airfix lobbying Joe Reyna wrote: >> With the kind assistance of David Wells (thanks, Dave!) I have produced below a draft letter which I encourage you to reproduce and forward to Airfix (could someone check the accuracy of the address, please?). << I probably have an address somewhere from my last attempt at this in 1995.... >> A suggestion to all: feel free to personalize the letter, but I strongly suggest that we keep the number of proposed kits to a realistic minimum. I am proposing that one kit we all request is an HMS INVINCIBLE aircraft carrier, and a second (and third, max) recommendation of your choice. << Joe has obviously re-used much of my 1995 letter. That's not a problem from a copying sense, as I gave him explicit permission. The problem is that things have changed a bit since 1995. Two big changes: 1) DML has re-issued the SkyWave 1/700 Type 42 DDs with full hull. 2) Revell-Germany has announced a 1/700 HMS Invincible, to be released sometime before doom cracks. Thus, my arguments about having the market all to themself no longer apply. Now, I would STILL like to see a 1/600 Invincible, but we have to temper our arguments a bit. A Falklands commemorative edition would still be great, and an Invincible kit, if properly designed, could be built with parts for HMS Illustrious and HMS Ark Royal. I suppose if they were REALLY smart, they could wait for the Revell-Germany kit, see what the complaints are, and do a better kit. Note the flaws in the recent Revell-Germany Graf Zeppelin. (annoying, but fixable) Possible alternatives: HMS Hermes. No "other ship" variants are likely, as the other Centaurs didn't get angle decks, but it does fit in with the Falklands theme. HMS Illustrious, WWII. Think of the variants they could do with that one! Maybe they could just do a cut-down version of the Heller kit, since they own Heller anyway. (or is it the other way around? It's all Humbrol, I guess....) HMS Renown. Yes, Frank, I heard you. I want one in late 1930s configuration, to go with Airfix's excellent HMS Repulse kit. I'll think about this, then send my vote in to Felix. David R. Wells ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: Binaries Greg: I think you've made the right decision, and I urge you to keep things as they are. Those wishing to exchange pix can do so off-list. (And I don't see any reason to include this--or any other--vote on the subject on the list.) John Snyder ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Rick Heinbaugh Subject: JMSDF ships in Seattle This week, a flotilla of JMSDF ships is visiting Seattle; we went today. In port are: Kirishima - an Aegis DDG Shirane - a DDH Murusame - DD 102 Harusame - DD 101 Tokiwa - a small replenishment tanker Kirishima was the only one open for tour today, and I noticed the following: -- Kirishima has the updated Vulcan/Phalanx gun Rusty White mentioned a few days ago and the other ships have the earlier version without braces. --Sides are painted a smidgen darker than USN haze gray... I think Humbrol #27 Slate looks familiar, although I won't guess on anyone's scale effect interpretation. The gray has no blue or green tinge, like Canadian, Australian or UK ships show. --The decks on Kirishima were uniformly a shade darker than the sides, again with no blue or green tint. Walkways are outlined in white stripes, but the non-skid within the white lines is NOT darker gray like USN decks. --Markings on the flight deck are bright yellow and red; the Skywave box-arts and decals are correct. --There were five SH60 helicopters along. Today, three were parked on Shirane all folded up and one was in each DD's hangar. None parked on Tokiwa. --I asked a crewman how to produce the ship's name (dumb tourist American might as well ask) and got Chir a shi' ma (Not Kir i' shi ma like we sometimes hear) and To' chi wa. I really didn't hear a "K" in the ship's names, even when I asked him to repeat (dumb tourist American) --Liferings are a full circle of orange, without the orange float beacon alongside. The float beacons had pale gray canvas covering. --Boat on Tokiwa was same gray as ships' sides, with dark gray below the waterline. --The ship's pamphlet referred to JDS Kirishima; apparently that is the correct prefix to parallel USS, HMS or HMAS. The ships will be in town until Friday, anybody with specific model-oriented questions can pass them along and I will go back and look. Rick ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: ALROSS2@aol.com Subject: Re: PEGASUS >> Some questions I was wondering. Did the Pegasus use some manner of common hull? << No. The PHM hulls were unique to that particular class. In fact, the hull for PHM 1 (PEGASUS) is slightly different from her five sisters, particularly in the rear foil area. I have the BOEING drawings for the PHMs, along with some NAVSEA stuff. Al Ross ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Mr J Owen" Subject: Re: Airfix Petition If we are going to petition Airfix to rework the moulds of some of their older kits, why can't we go the whole hog and ask them to reissue them in 1/700th scale. This way they would fit in well with other kits on the market and with the excellent resin models which are about.............. Jim Owen ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: tomkremer Subject: Re: Tirpitz stern and PHMs >> As regards my "Mystery Kit", on the assumption that it might be Tirpitz, I bought a 1/700 Aoshima Tirpitz for $20.00. To be honest I thought I was getting a Tamiya kit - and therefore a reliable reference - because of the style of the box art. I know, READ what it says, but that's the way it goes sometimes. Well, Aoshima is NOT known for unfailing accuracy in their aircraft kits, and this kit has a stern of much more pointed shape than the "Mystery Kit," which is quite rounded. So the questions should be obvious: is the Aoshima Tirpitz accurate? If so, then the mystery kit is not her. << Comparing my Aoshima Tirpitz to the diagrams in the excellent "Battleships; Axis and Neutral Battleships in World War II" by Dulin and Garzke (at 516 pages in a 9" x 11" format hardcover possibly the heaviest book I own) using the well known "rack of eye" measuring tool I would say the Aoshima hull shape is a reasonable representation. If your mystery kit is substantially more rounded then I would guess it is either a bad Tirpitz/Bismark or not a German ship at all. None of the German capital ships ever had transom or cruiser style sterns. If you are interested I could scan the stern area of the plans and email it to you, I think that could be done within the bounds of "fair use". >> I agree it's a shame that PHM's never were utilzed for what they were intended, but I never could understand why no other foreign navies bought into the idea. Last I heard, Pegasus was sold to a shipyard in SC, for breakup. << Not to criticize the PHM's because I think they were really interesting ships, I once spend half an hour closely looking over Pegasus when it was docked near me in the Bahamas and later saw it underway at speed... but they really never had any place or legitimate mission within the blue water/brown shoe US Navy. The other knock on them was that they were expensive to operate and support, which is why the Coast Guard was not interested. If not for the operating costs they would have had a future as interdiction vessels, they had great speed, fair stationkeeping and remarkably good seakeeping abilities. Best regards, Tom Kremer ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Tim Perry Subject: Wish List Ad Nauseum I agree with JG. I've said it before, but I'll say it again, if you REALLY want a model of a particular ship, make it yourself! After all, when a plastic kit does arrive on the hobby shop shelves, I would have thought most SMMLers bin all the plastic details and replace with etched brass, resin, white metal and homebuilt corrections and conversion stuff. So you all know how to do the difficult work! Surely it is only a tiny step further to provide the big pointy bit and a few smaller blocky bits, and Voila! Your very own model! So stop whinging, buy some plans and start whittling...... Tim Perry (Bristol, UK) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "Denis G. Campbell" Subject: Monogram JFK - and scratchbuilding Thanks to all who replied to my posting yesterday. Your comments and advice are appreciated. For David Wells and Tom Dougherty, I made three measurements using a simple tape measure and an eyeball (no fancy indtruments) and came up with: Axial Flight Deck (1051ft) 15 3/8ins. - 1/820 Angled Flight Deck (760ft) 11 5/8ins - 1/774 Length at Waterline (990ft) 15 inches - 1/792 I'll takethe average as being 1/800 - or close enough. For Tom, 12% would seem huge as interest on a savings account but, I imagine, "12% of the way there" would seem mighty small to a pregnant woman. Sorry to mix metaphors, but you know what I mean. - it's all relative. I think I can make 1/700 railings look ok but will have to try some aircraft and see. I have Revell's 1/720 Enterprise (I hope it really is 1/720) and will put some of the aircraft from that kit on the deck and see how they look. For Rusty White, thanks for your answer (again). I have WEM's catalog but, except for the Sea King helicopters and the A6's and A7's most of the US types they have are the ones used in the past by the Royal Navy - not on JFK during the Gulf War. They list some Skywave sets which seem to have most of the a/c I will need but I have no idea how many of each is included in a set. I may end up scratchbuilding some (to achieve wing sweep and wing folds) and molding resin copies. Which leads me into the posting from J. Gordon about the wish-list and scratchbuilding: For most of us. model building is a hobby - an avocation, not a vocation. Many times, people seeing some of my miniature furniture (all scratch built) ask me, "why don't you build these to sell?" My answer has always been the same - that would take most of the fun out of it. I build what I want to build, not what someone else wants me to build, at my own pace, for my own pleasure. I enjoy the planning and building and seeing the finished product - and it only has to please me. The people who scratchbuild masters for the model compamies do it for a living - and probably enjoy it (I hope). but most of us in the hobby build in our spare time for no reward other than the enjoyment and seeing a finished model that pleases us (most of the time). I'll take building a kit over scratchbuilding every time, scratchbuild what I have to, but at least start with a correct basic shape. Some of us are not able to scratchbuild, for lack of time or skill and if we did, would not get many models built. I haven't joined the appeals to Airfix because I am too new in this hobby but I certainly empathise with those compiling the "wish list" and wish them "the best of British luck" Lighten up JG, it's supposed to be fun - first and foremost. Denis Campbell ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "Michael Quan" Subject: Re: Pegasus hull Jens McCormack wrote: >> Did the Pegasus use some manner of common hull? I notice that the hull measures out almost exactly with other, small coastal defense boats, notably the then west german type 148's. << Jens, The PHM was of a very different type of ship construction because of the need to minimize the total weight to be carried by the hydrofoils when operating in the "foil-borne" mode. Masts and hull were of welded aluminum construction, while the deckhouse and pilothouse were of rivetted skin, frame and stringer construction much like an aircraft using marine aluminum alloys. The hull itself was a unique design that was shared by no others outside of it's class. The special PHM hull featured bow doors that opened (much like an LST) to allow the forward hydrofoil strut to retract up and forward. The sides of the hull had a midships 'step' or notch in it to allow the main hydrofoil struts to retract aft and up. Thus, this vessel could reduce it's draft for docking in shallow' harbors. The hull had three openings in the transom for the three waterjets that powered the boat, while there were large intake openings in each side of the hull at the 'step'. These openings mated to trunks inside each main hydrofoil strut in the down position, to induct water to feed the waterjet pumps. The bottom of the hull had special hydrodynamics to ease the transition of the vessel from hullborne to foil borne mode - the most dynamically critical design point for the PHM. As you can see, the PHM hull was something very different than an 'ordinary' coastal defense boat. As another point of trivia, the only 'armor' to be found on a PHM was the kevlar closet that housed the 'fly-by-wire' electronics controlling the boat's hydrofoil flaperons! cheers, Mike Quan ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: Duane Fowler Subject: Warship Volumes Hello All, I have been busily acquiring a set of the Warship Volumes series. I have been able to get volumes I through X, 1989 through 1991, and 1994 through 1997. I am still missing volumes XI, XII, 1992 and 1993. These are excellent reference books and I would dearly like to get the whole set. If anyone has seen some of these in the local book or hobby shop I would greatly appreciate any leads. Thank you. Also, a little while ago I saw a note from someone looking for a copy of the Anatomy of the Ship: The Battlecruiser Hood. If that is still being searched for, I found two copies available for US$30 I believe. Best regards, Duane Fowler ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: b29@ix.netcom.com Subject: Re: Constant scale models. I've been reading SMML for some time now and am dismayed by the sorry state of the plastic model world. I don't mean this in so much of a critical way. More a sort of sadness, and sympathy for those of you fighting what seems to be a losing battle. Nearly 40 years ago I gave up plastic models because of the poor selection, and because of lack of constant scale. I went into 1:1200, then 1250. My collection today numbers about 2000 models. I never have to worry about consistency of scale. 1200 and 1250 are so close as to be nearly indistinguishable except in larger vessels. It took about 30 years for the "resin" model industry to begin showing real promise. Today, I am amazed and pleased at the fine quality of resin work in various large scales, and I think that 1:700 scale shows the most promise for large variety in a constant scale. I see a lot of similarity between the resin industry and the 1250 industry. Both seem to be "run" by dedicated modelers intent on providing high quality and increasing variety. They seem intent on improving the world of ship models and producing high quality professional product. Keep up the good work! But for the most part, it appears to me that the plastic model industry, e.g. Revell, Monogram and all the rest have progressed very little in 40 years. Compared to the progress made in the world of 1200/1250, they have barely moved. I have heard complaints from some folks that there are no kits in 1250, so what's a poor modeler to do for fun? Well let me tell you: There is one heck of a lot of conversion work you can do, and for the truely challenged there's scratch building. That's right; built from the waterline up. Not only have I built 'em from the waterline up, but I've then made moulds for some, and cast copies of them. So, I assure those who think that there's no challenges to 1200/1250, there's plenty to do. I also sigh when I see all you poor B---d's with your voluminous wish lists, and now a petition drive! And of all things to get Airfix to make a model in 600 scale! Geez, I do feel for you 'cause I've waited for decades for some models to be made in 1250 scale. But we're lucky compared to you. There are literally thousands of different models in 1200/1250 scale. You want INVINCIBLE? You got it. How about ILLUSTRIOUS? You can have that too. How about the entire British fleet at the Falklands 1982. You can have that. Or maybe the British fleet at the Falklands 1914? Sure. Or the entire British and German Navies in WW I. Recreate Jutland? No problem! How about the Russian fleet in 1904? You got it! And lot's more. Heck, I've got a friend whose collection numbers over 1300 models, each one different from the other-and he only collects U.S. Navy ships!! Want liners? How about TITANIC, OLYMPIC, BRITANNIC (as a troopship, hospital ship, whatever), MAURETANIA, AQUITANIA, BERENGARIA, LEVIATHAN, REX, CONTE DI SAVOIA, BREMEN, EUROPA, QUEEN MARY, QUEEN ELIZABETH, UNITED STATES, AMERICA, NORMANDIE, PASTEUR, ASAMA MARU, ATHENIA, LACONIA, and on and on and on. There are hundreds and hundreds of liners, merchant ships, tugs, you name it. When I read SMML, I almost feel like I stepped back decades in time. I hope that you guys get your wishes granted. But when it comes to the plastic model industry, I wouldn't bet any money on it, and I wouldn't put off having children. By the time they get around to making what you want, if ever they do, even Viagra won't help you get it up, 'cause you'll be moldering in the grave. Anyway, good luck guys. Paul Jacobs 1250 Editor http://warship.simplenet.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Greg Lee (Listmaster - SMML) Subject: **IMPORTANT - AIRFIX VOTING** Just a short note to say please don't send your votes to SMML, they will not be counted! (For those who sent them here, you need to re-send them) If you want your vote to count you need to send it to Felix at: felix.bustelo@ny.frb.org With "Airfix Voting" in the subject line Thanks Greg (Listmaster - SMML) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume