Subject: SMML19/09/98VOL307 Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 01:12:45 +1000 (EST) shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Bismarck Turret Colors 2: IRT Battle of the River Platte 3: Re: "Gifts" and Casting Resins 4: U-boat color 5: turret color debate 6: 1/500 fans 7: RN colours 8: Flower Class Corvettes 9: Re: Airfix 10: Re: Renwal North Carolina 11: HMS Javelin 12: HMS Exeter - Thanks! 13: Re: pics 14: Bismarck's turret roofs 15: Re: IJN Green Paint CVs 16: Renwal Ships 17: Where to find a 1/72 Flower Class corvette 18: Re: Bismarck's Turrets -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: OLDER Revell Kits 2: Re: USS Essex 3: NEW Airstrike 700 Updates and new WEM 1/350 Hood Build Feature 4: Re: Exeter: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Foeth" Subject: Re: Bismarck Turret Colors I am actively discussing this subject with David Krakow, figuring out wether or not these turrets were indeed painted yellow. There are some scources that claim that the primary and secondary armament did recieve a coat of yellow on the 26th of may 1941. For everyones information, that is after the period the Bismarck waited in the Norwegian fjord, where the zigzag striping was removed (21 may 1941). This means, that even if the turrets had been painted yellow, it can not be combined with the zig-zag striping. Mr David Krakow did succesfully interview the Prinz Eugen veterans,claiming that the turrettops were grey. I countered this argument by stating that the ship was observed in heavy weather, meaning clouds, rain and fog, thus visibility was low. Also, he stated that the buildings seen from the plane above Queens, in which he travelled, seemed to be yellow at a certain point. I countered this argument by stating that thus yellow could just as easily be seen as grey. Reasoning the yellow of the turrets by stating that it is illogical to paint a ship in bright colors, while outside Luftwaffe range, does not carry any weight. He stated that the Prinz Eugen had the Bismarck constantly in their sights, and the chance they would not have seen the yellow, is extremely small. I agreed. But, I took a logical step, and compared the various dates of the battle. Yellow was said to be applied on the 26th of may 1941. Now, it came as no suprise that the crew of the Prinz Eugen could never have seen this, as she was detached on the 24th! This also explaines why no photographs exist showing clearly the lighter color of the turrets. This does create a further problem. How do we know that the turrets were painted over? I have contacted mr Gally claiming the 26th of may as the date, and he said to have found a statement by three survivors. As for the carmine turrets; These were used, as far as I know, during the Baltic manoueveres, and are certain to have been applied to various KM ships, but no direct evidence proves that they were ever painted in this fashion on the Bismarck. Again, there is no evidence that they were not, except from a statement from a survivor, claiming that he had never seen them in red. I know that in the Battleship-series by Garzke and Dulin a photographs is shown with accompanying text that the turrets were painted red (page213). I would point out that the baltic manoueveres were from 15 september to 5 December 1940. The ship was completed in harbour from this date to 24 january 1941. The camouflage was applied in january 1941, thus after the Baltic manouevers, so Garzke and Dulin show us a picture after the training. It could be that red was applied while in harbour. I therefore find it difficult to draw a definite conclusion on the yellow and red paint. But, one the other hand, modelers depicting the ship during the Hood encounter or with the camouflage (april/may 1941) applied need not worry about this, as the tops are known to be grey, both squirrel and dark, during that period. Evert-jan Foeth -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Jim McCormick" Subject: IRT Battle of the River Platte Harold, Belle and Blade video of New Jersey has this movie listed. I can get you the address and phone if you need. On a side note, did you know that the part of Graf Spee was played by USS Salem?( just found this out on the Salem website). I will post the address for Belle and Blade on Monday, providing I can remember to bring the Catalog to work. Price is about $20. Jim McCormick -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Les Pickstock (Les Pickstock) Subject: Re: "Gifts" and Casting Resins I wish I was lucky enough to have friends who would give me kits. I'am fortunate if the family remembers that is what I'd like for my birthday. The ARK ROYAL you mentioned is the WWII ARK which did not survive the war. Its not a bad kit despite its age. I personally found the moulding a little "fussy" for my taste and didn't fancy drilling out all those ports. Which isn't to say I won't get around to building it one day. It's scale puts it between the Airfix ARK and one by a Japanese company (although I haven't seen one of these kits in ages). Like most ship kits of this age the armament needs work and the the masts and such look as if you could stand the ship on them rather than the other way around but as with every thing else its what you make it. The Revell ARK does have the destroyer with it which is a bonus. Most car body fillers are Polyester based and as such can be "thinned" to a pourable state using GRP resins. This has certain advantages: the resulting casting will be less brittle and slightly softer than a pure resin cast in Polyester, Larger casting will not get as hot while curing (exothermic reaction- large resin casting using polyester can split, smoke and occaisionally catch fire). However the resin/filler mix will still be difficult to pour and really is used to its best in simple moulds that dont require much in the way of detail. For finely detailed mouldings Polyurethane is still the best. Thats why the companies producing resin kits use it. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Tom Eisenhour Subject: U-boat color Photographs of mid-war U-boats show the sides of the deck casing and tower painted a very light gray. Can anyone give me an FS color match or a match to a Testor's Model Master or Gunze Sangyo color? Thanks in advance for any help you can provide! Tom Eisenhour -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: DKrakow105@aol.com Subject: turret color debate Message from Art Nicholson: >> An article by Hans Gally in Warship Vol. IX states that the Bismarck's turret tops (15" and 5.9") were painted yellow on May 26, that is, after she had parted company with the Prinz Eugen and was hoping to be within range of the Luftwaffe in a few hours. << Thanks, Art! Glad to have a bit of civilized disagreement on my turret-top color research. Lets hope we can get to the bottom of this unsolved color mystery with a bit of open discussion on SMML! As somebody pointed out, naval color research is still in its infancy, while the model airplane guys have had the luxury of accurate color charts for decades. Meanwhile, I've gotten an e-mail from a fellow SMMLer who will be in touch with Hans Gally on the source of his data. Anyone in the UK know how one can get in touch with any surviving Swordfish pilots or gunners? I agree that the yellow color is possible after 26 May, but only if: a) weather and sea conditions permitted painting. OR b) if Bismarck carried colored canvas turret covers. (I have seen a photo of canvas covers used on Admiral Hipper.) In any case, for a model of the Bismarck during the Hood action, light grey tops are appropriate. Full-hull models showing Bismarck after 26 May would need to show shell damage to the bow, waterline models should best show Bismarck with her bow down, after taking in several tons of water due to this damage. The bows-down attitude is very visible in the photos. As for red tops-- here the testimony of the Prinz Eugen veterans is confirmed by color shots in "Anstriche und Tarnanstriche der deutschen Kriegsmarine", A color photo taken on 12 April 41 in Gotenhafen, shows Lutzow in the foreground with zig-zags and light-grey turret tops. The Bismarck is in the background, and one can just make out the tops of turrets Anton and Bruno. They are dark grey-- or perhaps more accurately put-- there is nothing there to indicate they are carmine red. I note for the record that a color shot of the light cruiser Nuremberg in Kiel in 1941 shows her with black and white zig-zags, and definately yellow main turret tops. David Krakow White Plains, New York -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: FEREKR@ONR.NAVY.MIL Subject: 1/500 fans I've noticed a few posts lately on converting the Renwal Springfield to W.W.II configuration. I thought about trying this a few months ago and ran into the problem of a lack of suitable photoetch. However, I contacted Tom's Modelworks and he agreed to produce his fast battleship set in 1/500. Should be available in a few months. This should do nicely for catapults, cranes, and (hopefully) radars and 20mm guns, etc. The set would also be suitable for Revell's Helena and Missouri, and Renwal's old North Carolina. Might be good if SMML'ers contact Tom and enccougrage this project (Tomsmodelworks@worldnet.att.net). I also contacted Caroline Carter at WEM and suggested a product we could really use: 1/500 scale US Navy W.W.II aircraft. These would be great for the Revell Enterprise/Hornet/Yorktown (1/480 scale) and the Lindberg Yorktown (Essex class, 1/525 scale). The Revell's come with pretty good SBD Dauntlesses or Dolittle's B-25's but the Lindberg only comes with some odd looking planes that I think are supposed to be Wildcats. As these are currently in production and probably the most common kits of W.W.II US carriers that are not 1/700 scale (and GMM produces a beautiful photoetch set for the Revell carriers), aftermarket Devastators, Wildcats, Hellcats, Helldivers, Avengers, Kingfishers and Corsairs would really add some options for modeling these ships in any campaign. Caroline replied that if fellow 1/500-ish carrier builders can get together a request for around 10 bags (no photoetch, at around 5.00 for 2 aircraft), for any one of these subjects, they would go ahead and produce them. Anyone interested should contact Caroline at: xdt22@dial.pipex.com. Ron Ferek -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "RLOCKIE" Subject: RN colours To Keith Butterley, Reference your posting regarding the colour scheme for HMS Exeter. I have a compilation of various people's Humbrol colour matches for WW2 RN colours which I have culled from various sources over the years but it is a spreadsheet and therefore needs to be sent as an attachment. Unfortunately the mail I sent you has been returned twice as there seems to be some sort of problem with the address that I took from the list. Any ideas? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Tom Dean Subject: Flower Class Corvettes Hi Gang: At the risk of making a number of you groan, I need some information on a kit. I tried without success a few months back to locate a kit of the 1/72 Revell (ex Matchbox) Flower Class Corvette for a fellow that wanted to build one. That was before I was informed about this list. I was just contacted by another chap looking for the same. I met a dead end before when informed that Revell is no longer issuing the kit. Can anyone help, Thanks: Tom Dean Hamilton, Ontario Canada -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Robert J. Mitchell" Subject: Re: Airfix Thanks for the latest update. As a new subsciber I'm not sure how your Airfix petition works, but my wish list from Airfix would be as follows 1 HMS HERMES (Falklands Fit) 2 HMS ARK ROYAL (the second, that carried Phantoms) 3 HMS Eagle (the above Ark's sister ship) 4 HMS VICTORIOUS (retool and update, really only reads update the basic kit is sound) 5 HMS RENOWN 6 HMS HOOD (it has a lot of potential but the bulges are wrong 7 Re-issue of their Destroyer and crusier kits generally, as they have enormous conversion potential as various articles in the old Airfix magazine show. Thanks for a great service Robert J. Mitchell -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: MJBCMB@aol.com Subject: Re: Renwal North Carolina This is one of what my kids call the "Fleet" of models I built as a kid, too many decades ago. The quality and accuracy of the 20mm and 40mm AA, and their ability to withstand all manner of assualt, is among the very best. I have been seeking to purchase kits of all of the "Fleet" for my kids to build themselves, but this Renwal kit appears to have been fully consumed. Any ideas for sources? Marc, Christopher and Stephanie. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Tim Stoneman Subject: HMS Javelin Can't help very much, I'm afraid. There is an undated starboard side view in "RN in Focus in World War 2", and another in the same "wavy" scheme in Manning's "British Destroyers" captioned "1941" (I could send you a scan of this one) and a port side view dated 1942 in "Warship" edition 15 which is less clear, but appears to be an angular scheme. Javelin wore several schemes, starting the war in Home Fleet Grey, then a dark hull/light upperworks by late 1940, the unofficial scheme shown in the last PSM and mentioned in another SMML post, the ones I mentioned above, an Admiralty Light (?) Disruptive in 1944 (or 1945?) and a modified Admiralty Standard (panel extended to stern and up to foc's'le deck level as far as "A" gun) at the end of the war - and maybe more! Tim Stoneman -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: jmaine@golden.net Subject: HMS Exeter - Thanks! Hi all, Many thanks to Kristoffer Lindh, Shane Jenkins and Floyd Whitney for your help in identifying the colours for my Matchbox Exeter. I was out buying paint today and she should be on the slipway (a.k.a. the dining room table!) in the very near future. Thanks again guys, John Maine -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: JVT7532@aol.com Subject: Re: pics Hello to all, I have just picked up my pictures from my day of Fire boat training on the Delaware River, I have some pictures available to send via email to anyone who would like them. I have a many of the Olympia both inside and out, gunmounts, deck, dockside, Bridge, Fake Turret, etc. Also I have some of the Iowa at dockside in the Philadelphia Navy dock showing the Starboard side, bow from starboard and full panorama of starboard as seen from the river. I will be happy to make them available to anyone who asks. Also some other ships and carriers such as the Guadalcanal, The America and the Forrestal. they were all docked there last Sunday so I got a chance to get in real close. The Olympia is docked at Philadelphia's Penn's Landing and is open Daily for tours, I got the $2.00 tour, from the bridge to the bilge's. Really something to see but it needs lots of work to bring it up to snuff. Cheers Jon -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: jmaine@golden.net Subject: Re: Bismarck's turret roofs >> Modellers and artists have been painting the main and/or secondary turret tops yellow, allegedly an air-> recognition measure. I have been skeptical of this, although the theory originated from one radio transmission from a British observation aircraft which noted "Bismarck's turret roofs and gun shields painted bright yellow." I submit that the yellow turret top theory is incorrect.>> >> I'm along way from an expert here but I believe the yellow turret tops indicated the particular campaign such as Baltic. A friend of mine who knows a bit about the Bismarck mentioned this. Air recognition? If they couldn't see the Bismarck with those huge swastikas on the bow and stern they better get some glasses for those pilots. << I'll go along with Rusty on a couple of things here, first that I'm not an expert on KM turret top colours and, second, that I also understood that particular turret top colours indicated particular theaters of operations: 1. red-brown tops (with the famour black and white "zebra stripes" across hull and superstructure) was for the Baltic (I've seen pictures of other German big ships such as Scharnhorst and Gneisenau exercising in the Baltic - fall, 1940 - and wearing the same scheme made famous by Bismarck and Prinz Eugen) 2. yellow tops (with what seems to be an overall light grey superstructure, hull a shade or two darker) indicated the Atlantic (again I've seen pictures of S & G coming into Brest from their Atlantic cruise - Jan-Mar/41 - wearing this scheme) 3. blue-grey tops for the Channel Dash However the matter seems to get a lot murkier as far as ships stationed in northern Norway are concerned. Thus far I haven't found evidence of a consistent pattern - anbody know any more about this? And one more thing about the Bismarck's tureets (post-Hood encounter): in the pictures I've seen, the 15" gun barrels appear very dark grey or black. Is that a "trick of the light" or might they have been painted that colour? John Maine -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "Duane W. Christensen" Subject: RE: IJN Green Paint CVs The Grand Prix book on IJN carriers shows diagrams of the green cammo on the following ships:Junyo, Chiyoda, Zuikaku, Katsuragi, and Zuiho on pages 112-115. Unfortunately, all of the text is in Japanese (which I can't read). The diagrams are good and show flight deck cammo for Katsuragi and Zuiho as well. The Katsuragi seems to have a three color deck , and Zuiho has a four color deck. The printing of the book makes the colors look blue-shifted, so they are a poor guide to actual color. I would use the 1/700 kit boxes for that. Duane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "Mike Leonard" Subject: Renwal Ships >> The rare Renwal North Carolina. Presumably, this will have 40mm and 20mm guns, catapults and aircraft, all in the correct scale. I have no first hand experience with the kit, and I can't tell you how good the parts are. Since this kit is quite rare, you'll probably have trouble finding one. << I belive I built this kit way back in junior high school, complete with a bogus glossy camo paint scheme I dreamed up. The 20mm and 40mm guns were also done up in black and silver gloss Testors paint. One day a cousin of mine - probably 5 or 6 years old at the time - was over the house and he proceeded to chew up and spit out a cookie all over the model. I don't think to this day I've forgiven the little bastard! I saw the kit for sale at a recent toy collector's show for about $55. Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Michael Kear Subject: Where to find a 1/72 Flower Class corvette Friends, A caller to my Task Force 72 site has asked me a question I'm referring to you in the hope you can help out. He wants to build a 1/72 scale flower class corvette, and wants to know is the Matchbox kit the same as the Revell Kit is the same as the Airfix kit? Anyone know of a source? He's in Canada, so obviously Canadian source is best. I don't know anywhere to get one, other than telling him to search the likes of Tower Hobbies on the net. His original question: I was browsing your website and I saw a model of a 1/72 scale Flower Class Corvette. I am trying to find a 1/72 kit of the Flower Class Corvette HMS Bluebell. I understand the kit was once made by Matchbox, but on the web at address http://www.offiler.demon.co.uk/MTMBC/pg_bluebell.html it is referred to as an Airfix kit???? There was also some discussion on the web that Revell may have the rights to this kit, but I am not sure if this is in competition to Airfix or not. Deans Marine makes a 1/96 scale model, but I would like the 1/72. Can you or your honorable task force colleague who constructed the Corvette help me find a source? Does your own company make one? My ultimate aim is to create an R/C version, but I want to make it well enough to put on static display. Fair winds and following seas, Mike Kear, Webmaster, Task Force 72 Australia 1/72 Scale warship modellers, Australia http://www.healey.com.au/~mkear/taskforce72.html AFP Models - Warship fittings, semi-kits, hulls, accessories. http://www.afp.zip.com.au/models.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "Robert J. Mitchell" Subject: Re: Bismarck's Turrets Just a few more words on Bismarck's Turrets, I've never paid much attention to theyellow theory whilw she was on her Atlantic sortie, the reason being a few years back there was general debate with British aircraft medellers why many early war photos showed a dark or black rins around fuselage roundels, when it was clearly yellow. Apparently, the type of film we used I WW2, had a habit of showing pale colours, especially yellow very dark. It depended a lot on whether the film was under or over exposed. I've always thought that the same phenomenon may have happened with many Bismarck photo's. Plus I could not see the reason for bright yellow Turrets in mid atlantic. She may have been assined this colour foe Baltic Operations as there is a fairly well known Prinz Eugen photo clearly showing Maroon turrets later in the war. If she carried yellow turrets at any time during her shot career, I think it would probably be in the Baltic while she was working up Reguards Bob Mitchell -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Shaya Novak" Subject: OLDER Revell Kits SMMLers Revell's kits are alive and well at "The Naval Base" CV-16 Lexington 18.95 USS Helena 14.95 USS Pine Island 19.95 USS Miss Capistrano 14.95 USS North Carolina 12.95 USCG Eastwind 17.95 US Harbor Tug 15.95 USS Buckley DE 19.95 www.navalbasehobbies.com or shaya@erols.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: JSTBALL@aol.com Subject: Re: USS Essex I recently inhereted an old Model Shipways USS Essex 32 gun Frigate circa 1799, kit #2007. If anyone has an old set of plans, I would be most interested in purchasing them. Additionally, the kit seems to be missing the white metal fittings for both the bow and stern and any enlightenment on how or where these can be obtained is most appreciated. Jeff Ball -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Caroline Carter" Subject: NEW Airstrike 700 Updates and new WEM 1/350 Hood Build Feature Thanks for the feedback on the little aircraft so far.. please keep them coming! What about 1/350 Scale as well.. and if anyone else would be interested in 1/500 Scale Aircraft for the Revell 1/480 Yorktown/540 Scale carriers (bearing in mind it will be about 5.00 pounds for 2 of them.. if we took such a move, we might also consider a generic US-biased 1.500 Scale aircraft fittings set in photoetch....), please register your interest now. We have already had 2 messages. Bear in minds that 10 bags of anything will get you what you want!! My website update has consisted of new additions to the AIRSTRIKE range and Jim Baunann's rather "MMMmmmmmm.." 1/350 Hood build "straight from the box". Please click here... http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models/jbhood/jbhood.htm Cheers! Caroline Carter Business Manager and VELLY SMMLly WEMblie http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Caroline Carter" Subject: Re: Exeter Yunchi, you're right... the Kelly is on general release next week, and will be available from WEM and Pacific Front. Bill will be getting his stock of 1/700 Sussex kits in shortly. Dave has to rework the Kashmir instructions and colour scheme for Kelly first off. In the meantime, I am completing instructions this weekend for the 1/700 Nelson/Rodney brass, and for the 1/700 IJN AA Weapons and Twin 20mm etcehd brass sets, together with the 1/350 MTB and 1/350 Brave Borderer kits. Re 1/350 Scale Patrol Boats and MTBs., thanks to Paolo Pizzi's efforts, we will be releasing an extensive range of small 1/350 subjects to include MAS boats... all with etched brass details.. the "Narrow Seas" range, to include S-Boats, PT Boats, Elcos, E-Boats etc... watch this space! Cheers, Caroline Carter VELLY SMMLly WEMblie http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume