Subject: SMML20/09/98VOL308 Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 19:32:51 +1000 (EST) shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Pics 2: Re: Bismarck Turret Colours. 3: Re: Bismarck capital gun barrel paint 4: Airstrike 700 Scale Aircraft 5: Re: Essex hangar 6: Re: Bixmarck Turret Colors 7: Forrestal arrives in Rhode Island 8: Fwd: where to find 1/72 Flower Class Corvette in Canada 9: HMS NEWCASTLE 10: Re: Airfix 11: Turret color debate 12: USS Alaska 13: Re: Matchbox 1:72 Flower Class 14: Re: BISMARCK turret tops--again 15: Re: BISMARCK turret tops--yet again 16: Revell Ark Royal. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Good deal on Advance Force -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Ives100@aol.com Subject: Re: Pics Jon wrote: >> The Olympia is docked at Philadelphia's Penn's Landing and is open Daily for tours, I got the $2.00 tour, from the bridge to the bilge's. Really something to see but it needs lots of work to bring it up to snuff. << What? No mention of the USS Becuna docked alongside? This is an excellent example of a Guppy II conversion of a WWII fleet submarine. Another fine Electric Boat product. Remember, there really are only TWO kinds of ships: submarines and targets. Tom Dougherty Visit the Submarine Modeling Group, The SubCommittee at: http://www.wolfsong.com/SubCommittee -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Herron, Chris H" Subject: Re: Bismarck Turret Colours. Browsing through the last few day's worth of SMMLs and the subject of the Bismarck's turret colours seems to be rife once again. I was wondering that as we know where the Bismarck lies and it has been extensively explored by Robert Ballard, would the archive of the pictures that came from that expedition possibly have the answer? (Don't know what 50+ years of salt water would have done to it though?) Just an idle thought..... Chris. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Bismarck capital gun barrel paint The same friend who knows a bit about German ships told me that the top half of the capital gun barrels were painted a dark gray as a camouflage to aerial bombardment and to confuse reconnaissance observers. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Mr J Owen" Subject: Airstrike 700 Scale Aircraft Caroline, In reply to your request in SMML, I would like to see the following additions to the range; A Barrage Balloon, many were flown from ships. Some more of the larger British Aircraft of WW2 and post-war, e.g. Lancaster, Shackleton, Argosy and all of the 'V' Bombers. It would be good to see some civil aircraft in the range though I do not know whether they would sell e.g. Viscount, Brittania, 707, Tristar etc. Moving away from reality a moment, for diorama makers, it would be very useful to have a set of British soft skinned vehicles available, perhaps a couple of Bedford QL trucks, a couple of Austin Ambulances and a couple of trucks with workshop/radio bodies. A postwar set with Bedford RLs and perhaps a Centurian Tank would be useful for anyone modelling landing craft, after all there are quite afew US pattern vehicles around. Moving even further away from reality; a bag of railway wagons would be useful for dockside dioramas, although British would be very small, US rolling stock starts at about 40ft long and can be up to 86ft long! There might conceivably be a spin off market amongst US model railroaders who seem to be a strange breed. I hope that this rambling is of some use. Regards, Jim Owen. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: Essex hangar Regarding the use of countershading--painting the undersides of overhangs white--the modeler needs to determine what time period he is depicting (if that level of accuracy is desired), as countershading was dropped during the last year or two of the war. I've got the reference at hand in one of the revisions to Ships 2. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises USN WW2 Paint Chips Sacramento, Calif. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: Bixmarck Turret Colors With all due respect to the crew of PRINZ EUGEN, the undoubtedly reported what they remember seeing. However, they never saw BISMARCK again after the two ships parted company and the BB began her run to Brest. Thus, if you had asked them if they had seen the BISMARCK crew constructing a false second funnel (which did happen), they would have replied in the negative. As for BISMARCK being out of range of LW aircraft, they were in fact running back into that range and expected LW air cover. LW fliers were not known to be terrific at ship identification, and so air recognition efforts make a lot of sense. As for that Admiralty signal received in RODNEY, the Admiralty obviously did not want a repeat of the ARK ROYAL's attack on SHEFFIELD (as the FAA crews had proved themselves to have a bit of ship identification problem as well). So, my take on the subject is this: if you want to depict BISMARCK at the time of the HOOD action, go with gray turret tops. If you want to depict her at the time of her attack by the Swordfish from ARK ROYAL or on the day of her loss, go with bright yellow turret tops as seen by observers other than the PRINZ EUGEN crew. And remember also that memories are not without fault. One of the documentaries done a few years ago on the BISMARCK action included interviews with a number of RN vets who were there. One who was aboard either KGV or RODNEY described BISMARCK as being painted black! John Snyder -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Denis G. Campbell" Subject: Forrestal arrives in Rhode Island A follow up to my post about a month ago saying that the uss Saratoga had been moved from the Philadelphia navy yard to Rhode Island - yesterday the uss Forrestal arrived and will be joined next week by uss Iowa. They are all to be moored at Coddington Cove in Middletown RI (just north of Newport) at the Naval Education and Training Center No word yet when (or if) any of them will be open to the public. Denis Campbell, Avon MA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Ron or Julie Hillsden Subject: Fwd: where to find 1/72 Flower Class Corvette in Canada These are 2 links to 2 large hobby shops in Canada. BC Shaver and Hobbies has one of these on the shelf - you can contact them for a price. Yes, Aifix sold the molds to Revell - it is the same kit. You should be aware that while it is large, the detail is really crude. If you worry about what it looks like up close, you have a lot of kit basking to do. On the other hand, it is an excellent RC sailor on 2 channel, a good beginners boat. The hull is about 30"x9", lots of room for stuff, and enough room to get your hands inside. If I recall, it should displace about 7 - 71/2 lbs, so battery weight isn't a problem. You will probably have to add a little ballast. http://www.ecmc.com/linkrcb.html EAST COAST MODEL CENTER - R/C Web Links — Boats http://www.bcshaver.com BC Shaver and Hobbies-Your scale models source. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Vimieraa@aol.com Subject: HMS NEWCASTLE I am looking for photos of the cruiser Newcastle as in 1941.42 and 43.Port and starboard views are needed for all periods. Any and all help would be appreciated. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Norman C. Samish" Subject: Re: Airfix My wish list from Airfix (or anybody else) includes any battle-damaged WWII (or WWI for that matter) 1:350 ships WITH THE BATTLE DAMAGE. Highly detailed models of the Hood, Bismarck, Yorktown, Kirishima, Yamato, etc., with probable battle damage would be fascinating. I say probable because there are very few photos available (except for aircraft carriers with big holes in the flight deck) so it would take some expertise to correctly model what might have happened to these ships in their final minutes. Even the North Carolina, which wasn't sunk but was badly shot up as well as torpedoed (with a hole you could "drive a truck through"), would be a great subject. Norm Samish -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "Foeth" Subject: Turret color debate From the last message >> I agree that the yellow color is possible after 26 May, but only if: a) weather and sea conditions permitted painting. OR b) if Bismarck carried colored canvas turret covers. (I have seen a photo of canvas covers used on Admiral Hipper.) << a) Statements by the survivors indicate that the yellow was washed off of the 15cm turrets during heavy seas b) this is possible, but I have no evidence whatsoever to confirm or deny this, thus can be true. I shall write mr Gally a new letter on sunday. He indicates that yellow was applied, on his suberb drawings, and, as I have read in the previous SMML, in an article in Warship. In an letter I previously send him he named the german war diaries as a source (KTB). I shall make a more detailed inquire this time, which he hopefully can anwser. Also, he can deny nor confirm the carmine turrettops. I know one more Kriegsmarine expert, which I shall contact, although his response is usually slow, so we'll have to wait a while. I will also try to contact mr Garzke or mr Dulin on the matter. The Naval Institute Press has agreed to relaying a message to these authors. I shall also try to get to the bottom of the turrettop... Evert-Jan Foeth -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Mike Settle Subject: USS Alaska Hi, all, While attending the IPMS (USA) Region 2 contest and swap meet today, I was able to see the soon to be released Iron Shipwright's 1/350th scale USS Alaska. This beauty may make me get off my duff and try my first resin ship model. I think Jon Warneke was afraid that I was going to drool all over the model and his table! This one is definitely going to be an impressive model, especially with a little attention to detailing. Also present was the hull and part of the superstructure for the HMS Rodney. With apologies to the British, this was one ugly ship, so ugly that it is pretty. This too is going to be a very nice addition to many collections. Start saving your money now. I'm already trying to decide what is going to come out of the closet and go on the block. Time to get rid of some of those car models, I guess. Mike Settle -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Bradford Chaucer Subject: Re: Matchbox 1:72 Flower Class HI: I recall hearing that a PE fret was available for this beast. Does anyone recall who made it and whether any are still available. Looks like I've scored a kit, so I am looking for the PE to do it right. Regards, Bradford Chaucer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: BISMARCK turret tops--again Well, so far as I know, the red (weinrot) used on turret tops was strictly for ships working up in the Baltic, and was painted out when they went operational. Other turret top colors WERE associated with specific operations--such as the blue used for Operation Cerberus (the Channel dash). The Luftwaffe would presumably be notified of the colors being used by the DKM ships for a particular operation. John Snyder -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: BISMARCK turret tops--yet again Bob Mitchell mentioned the gray-scale shift associated with certain WW2 films, attributing it to whether the film was over- or under-exposed. As I've explained in the past on SMML, orthochromatic films (which were still very much in use into the 1950s) were blue-sensitive, and thus rendered colors in a different range of grays when compared to panchromatic films (which had only come into general use in the mid-30s). Prints from orthochromatic films show blues as very light--almost white--while yellows (the complementary color to blue) are rendered almost black, and reds go darker than on panchromatic prints. Thus, it's got everything to do with what type of film was used, and very little to do with whether the negs were overexposed or underexposed. Of course, the use of filters with either type of film can also skew the equation. My wife and I presented a paper on the subject about 10 years ago to an international historic preservation to which we belong; people also badly misinterpret old photos when making color decisions about historic buildings. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises USN WW2 Paint Chips Sacramento, Calif. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "Robert J. Mitchell" Subject: Re: Revell Ark Royal. Hi guys, In answer to Les Pickstock's query about the Revell Ark Royal. I 1/720, which is 1 inch = 50ft. It's not a bad rendition though quite lone in the tooth these days.It doesn't look out of place in 1/700 and I agree some of the detail is a bit fussy. If you carefully put etched brass railng on the gallery decks along the sides the heavy moulded one on the back bulkheads is a lot less noticeable. It needs refining arond the Bridge which is best built up from thin plastic sheet and the turrets need refining. I comes with a small sirgroup of Fairy Fulmars which always seem a bit under scale to me. they can not be repleced with WEM Airstrike range She needs Fulmars and Swordfish. I actually won a bronze medal with one quite a few years back before etched brass came into vogue. Also the Quaterdeck and forecastle decks nee cutting out to get the correct see-through effect as in the 600 scale Arfix kit. It's worth a bit of effort as it is far superior to Illustrius and Victorius by Aoshima.. The tribal is not too bad considering it's age most of the heavy detail can be replaced by the WEM Tribal brass. Although to model the Ark at the time of her loss it should be an L Class. It also cheap enough to chop up and build HMS UNICORN which shered many of the Arks feature but I think was a lot smaller I'd give it a go! Regards Bob Mitchell -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Burl Burlingame / Pacific Monograph Subject: Good deal on Advance Force We have a number of our book "Advance Force - Pearl Harbor" that are lightly damaged (creases on the cover, a dent on the corner, that sort of thing) that we're making available to members of this newsgroup for $12, including priority-mail postage. (Outside the U.S., $15) Normal price is $22 plus postage. No credit cards, please - check, money order or (shudder!) cash. Information about this book is at: http://www.PacificHistory.com/PRODUCTSFILE/BOOKSFILE/AFPH.HTML Burl Burlingame Pacific Monograph, 1124 Kahili Street, Kailua HI 96734 A historical interpretation company. Visit our web site at http://www.PacificHistory.com/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume