Subject: SMML21/09/98VOL309 Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 20:45:29 +1000 (EST) shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Kreigsmarine colours Spanish Civil War & RN Med colours 2: More marking mysteries 3: Colour interpretation and USS Missouri question 4: Bookshops in the UK etc 5: WEM AIRSTRIKE 700 6: Troubles for HMCS Haida 7: Fletcher Class DD 5"-38's 8: Re: Bismarck Turret Colours. 9: Polystyrene sheeting 10: WEM Wish list 11: Hobby Shops... anywhere 12: Heller color 13: 1:72 Flower Class Corvette 14: COUNTERSHADING 15: Re: Hanger colors- addendum 16: Flowers, turret tops and Arks 17: Bimarck's missing turrets 18: RE: ANTI FOULING ON US CARRIERS 19: London Model Shops 20: Found a Flower Class Corvette -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD 1: Re: 1/500 Scale aircraft -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Shane & Lorna Jenkins Subject: Kreigsmarine colours Spanish Civil War & RN Med colours Hi Gang, A friend of mine would like Tamiya colours for the Spanish Civil War neutrality patrol for German & RN ships Regards, Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: DKrakow105@aol.com Subject: More marking mysteries Hi For those of you who have had enough of turret colors, here's another Bismarck markings unsolved mystery... On the photos of the Bismarck in Norway, and up to the last shots of her recorded from the Prinz Eugen there is a large patch of dark smudges on the starboard hull side, just below turret Dora. They are unmistakable, even in the blurry photos. One of the smudges is in the shape of an inverted triangle and has got to be at least 15 feet wide. Anyone have any clues as to what this is and what caused it? As for the dark barrels, a check of the original photos shows that this is not a trick of the light. They were definately painted a dark color. Ballards photos are interesting in that they show, as best as I can determine, the red field of the stern swastika overpainted with grey. The Prinz veterans remember painting over the red fields of their insignias with grey paint as well; a camoflage measure. For anyone who's had enough about turret colors, skip the rest! So far we have a single radio transmission from a RN Catalina, and Herr Gally's statement in favor of the post 26 April yellow turret tops. I don't necessarily disagree, however, I just do not think this is enough evidence to confirm as fact. I point out that I spoke with one Bismarck suvivor, Paul Hillen, who remembered the turrets as grey. I was informed (perhaps incorrectly) that Gally's claims are based on an interview with three deserters who allegedly "jumped overboard" before the Bismarck's final battle. I have never heard of these deserters, and find it extremely unlikely that anyone, especially well-trained sailors, would trade the relative security of an enormous modern battleship for the freezing cold waters of the Atlantic. Frankly, I don't buy this story. I look forward to Jan's report on this! There may be a record of a message from the Kriegsmarine to LW pilots in the area regarding yellow color of Bismarck's turrets, and other such communiques. I'll have a look in the Bundesarchiv and will keep you informed (like it or not). David Krakow -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Jens H. Brandal" Subject: Colour interpretation and USS Missouri question I have followed this debate on the Bismarck's turret colours with great interest, and there have been a few good point about how to "prove" that a colour was being applied with the sole aid of a b&w photo. Luftwaffe rivet-counters seem to be the worst - how they can "prove" that a particular aircraft is mottled in RLM82/83 instead of 70/71 (at at time when paint was scarce) when their source is a poor b&w photo really is beyond me. Similarly, wouldn't a photo of deep red turret tops show up as a darker shade of grey on a photo? Assuming it is b&w of course... Similarly, would there be sufficient contrast between yellow and light grey to hint that the turret tops have a different colour than the rest of the superstructure? This can be used to defend both camps - it hardly shows contrast, so it can be assumed that the turrets were grey. OTOH, that doesn't prove that the turrets were not painted yellow.... Can someone enlighten us poor, confused souls?:) I have a Tamiya Missouri thatI'd like to finish in the dazzle pattern, and with John Snyder's comment about countershading yesterday; would the Missouri have the lower surfaces of the platform overhangs painted white? Secondly, I wish to finish this as a waterline model, and as the black line is 5 mm wide, where would the actual waterline be when the ship was loaded to it's combat weight? Jens -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Douglas Martin" Subject: Bookshops in the UK etc 1) When I go to London, an almost 'annual' event, I spent time and a lot of loot in 'Foyles', 113-119 Charing Cross Road, London WC2H 0EB. They have a fax, 0171-434-1574. 'Fiasco' and 'Sea Battles in close Up Vol 2' were both spotted, as was 'Walker RN' (or similar) in Dillons. The 'Motor Book Shop' nearby also sells many warship books, although the 'gents' there dont store the books particularly well to fend off dust etc. 2) On another point, I have the 'Mother' and possibly the 'Grandmother' of unbuilt ship kits stored in various nooks and crannies around the house, including the ahem 'kitchen'. We are talking 3 figures here folks, and I'm not talking about my aircraft collections....... I also have a stack of 1/700 IJN ships (mainly) constructed, several on their second or third rendition, well I just bought another kit and re-named it (so there)! My construction work ceased about 5-6 years ago, when the blasted PCs came out, though still buy books and read them. Conversions were extremely limited, I did various Belfast changes to make it into a waterline 'Newcastle', or so I thought......well only I knew what it was supposed to be! As I've said to others, in my opinion Airfix lost the plot on the 1/600 ships when the 1/700 series came out. If ONLY Airfix had brought out 'conversion packs', to increase the range of ships that 'non converters' like myself could have built, such as extra parts for the KGV to make the 4 sisters, or parts to convert Sharnhorst into Gneisenau, Ajax into Orion etc etc (get my drift). Anyhow, only another 20 odd SMMLs to read..... Douglas (Scotland) (When I retire, I'll start building again, honestly............) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Uwe Besken Subject: WEM AIRSTRIKE 700 I agree with Jim Owen (SMML20/9/98 Vol308), that it would be nice for dioramas to get some other "small stuff". I think about tanks, trucks and even trains. And what is about buildings, small boats and vessels like the different landing crafts or mini-subs? Uwe Besken, Germany -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Sue & Ben Subject: Troubles for HMCS Haida Gentlemen, Last Tuesday "@discovery.ca", the daily science and technology news program produced by the Canadian Discovery Channel, had a story about the rusting of HMCS Haida. Some of you may remember postings by this list member to the effect that the ship was in good shape. I still think it is. Above the waterline. Oh, there may be some very limited rust areas remaining from her extensive carrer in the north Atlantic and the turbines do exhibit some subtle suface rusting and slight pitting, but by and large the ship is clean, has a reasonnably fresh coat of paint and the brass still gleams. But, apparently, the situation below the waterline is far more serious. Recent surveys indicate that the anti-fouling is completely gone, heavy surface rust is prevalent and algae growth is extensive. However, the kicker is that ultrasound mappings taken below said waterline revealed that in some spot hull plates are so rotted that the have fallen below _half_ their original thickness. The ship need drydock time to repalce said hull plates, scrape rust and algea and put on new anti-fouling. The situation may not be urgent yet, but requires attention. 5 million $ (Cdn, IIRC) are required for this and funds are slowly being raised. I haven't had time to visit the Haida's website at http//www3.sympatico.ca/hrc/haida to see if any mention is yet made of this, but feel free to check it out yourselves. Let us hope the world will not yet see the passing of the last Tribal. Ben Montreal, Canada -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Doc Data Subject: Fletcher Class DD 5"-38's I would appear for a myriad of photos that SOME but not ALL of the Fletcher Class DD's had a ladder on the starboard side of the mounts facing foward and the port side of those facing aft. Additionally, SOME but not ALL of mount 51's had a gun captain hood on top of the mount. Is there a rhyme or reason that not all had these? Finally, 2 articles I have read on the Tamiya Fletcher kit talk about needing an extra 'knuckle' on 2 of the mounts. What is being referred to by 'knuckle' and which mounts get it? Doc Data http://www.MustangOne.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Shane & Lorna Jenkins Subject: Re: Bismarck Turret Colours. >> Browsing through the last few day's worth of SMMLs and the subject of the Bismarck's turret colours seems to be rife once again. I was wondering that as we know where the Bismarck lies and it has been extensively explored by Robert Ballard, would the archive of the pictures that came from that expedition possibly have the answer? (Don't know what 50+ years of salt water would have done to it though?) Just an idle thought..... << Hi Chris, If memory serves me right Ballard did find one of the turrets, but it was upside down on the bottom. When the Bismarck sunk, she turned turtle & all the main guns just fell out(they were just lowered into the barbettes, whilst being built), then as she filled with water she righted herself to "glide" to the bottom, where she is now. It's a pity there isn't a new blockbuster movie about the Bismarck, then all sorts of info would suddenly appear. Maybe the list could petition James Cameron :-). Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: CHRIS DRAGE Subject: Polystyrene sheeting Hi all SMMLies, Thanks to Mike, Dan, Tim, Dimi et al for their help with my HMS Javelin request. It remains an enigma I'm afraid. Have another little problem which I wonder if anyone can help solve. Building display cases for my WWII dioramas can prove problematical when the polystyrene sheeting which I use to form the sides and top of each display case gets so highly charged with static that everything, including the solvent, is pulled with alarming force towards it. In the case of the solvent, even Humbrol's thin stemmed dispenser can't cope - one tiny droplet and POW! it's splattered on the lovely, clear, virgin plastic.... How can I discharge the static? Help please. Regards, Chris -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: CHRIS DRAGE Subject: WEM Wish list Hi All, I would just like to add my voice to Jim Owen when he requested: >> Caroline, In reply to your request in SMML, I would like to see the following additions to the range; A Barrage Balloon, many were flown from ships....... Moving away from reality a moment, for diorama makers, it would be very useful to have a set of British soft skinned vehicles available, perhaps a couple of Bedford QL trucks, a couple of Austin Ambulances and a couple of trucks with workshop/radio bodies. Moving even further away from reality; a bag of railway wagons would be useful for dockside dioramas, << All of these please CaroDave! Immediately, ...if not sooner! Good one Jim! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Doc Data Subject: Hobby Shops... anywhere Who knows of a good hobby shop, with an extensive ship kit and detail parts inventory (especially 1/350th scale) that will accept fax orders and will mail the ordered items quickly? I do not mind paying full price in trade for quick service. One of our local stores carry some Tamiya 350th scale kits but none of they carry anything else (like HR Products, BWN/MB Model kits and parts, Floating Drydock books, etc., etc.) Most on-line hobby shops (in fact all I've dealt with so far) take several weeks as they do not maintain an inventory to speak of and only order the parts from their sources after they receive your order. Prices are lower, of course, but the wait is terrible. If I want an expensive kit, I will usually order it from the best priced source (if the savings is significant) and wait to receive it. However, after receiving a kit and evaluating what additional items may be necessary to detail and/or modify the kit the way you want requires another waiting period. I placed my first order with GMM a few days ago, sending a money order directly to them. They have told me, via e-mail, that parts are in stock, they will ship immediately upon receipt of the money order and the shipping is only $1. This is the type of turn around I'm looking for (and acceptance of a credit card would be even better). So, who has a good resource? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "Eric Birkler" Subject: Heller color Recently I purchased a Heller 1/400 scale German prinz eugen model. The instruction give only heller color numbers to use on the ship. Would anyone have a Heller color chart, or advise what colors,11-12-27-33-34-63-64-73-130-and 102 would be. Any help would greatly be appreciated. Eric -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Tim Perry Subject: 1:72 Flower Class Corvette Dear All, I know 'AIRFIX' has become a generic term for any plastic construction kit, but can we get one thing straight? The 1:72 Flower class kit was designed and produced originally by MATCHBOX, then passed on to Revell. It has never been an 'AIRFIX' kit! This might be why some people are having difficulty locating a sample, because they are asking for a product that never existed. If we can spend reams of electrons over the tops of turrets, or the angle of wake, surely we can get this true fact accepted? Please? Sorry, pedantry over, Tim Perry Bristol, UK PS Rob Lockie, I am still looking into the LCG matter, but the one based on the LCT4 was the big one with the 4.7 inch guns. I will get back with a posting when I have some more data, but thanks for the input. I have a number of good books to wade through, including 'the War of the Landing Craft', 'the Landfall Story' and Peter Bulls biography of his time on LCFs, 'To Sea in a Sieve'. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Baker Subject: COUNTERSHADING Countershading was still in use on USN ships in 1963 when I joined the U.S.S. CAMP (DER 252) as first lieutenant, but shortly thereafter, when we went in for a yard period, we were told to paint the overhanging deck surfaces the same haze gray as the rest of the vertical surfaces. By the way, as we had to paint out the entire ship after sandblasting her in the repair yard, I learned that (at least in those days) virtually every can of haze gray paint was a different color; we mixed up batches in 55-gal. drums to average out the shades. Dave Baker -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "Michael Czibovic" Subject: Re: Hanger colors- addendum I forgot to mention that the four bulkheads that form the elevator pit should be painted the same color as the surrounding external vertical surfaces. This was so aerial observers did't see a glaring white pit when the elevator was down. Photos I've seen are all the same color on all four sides- no patterns were used. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Les Pickstock (Les Pickstock) Subject: Flowers, turret tops and Arks Its that ship again! Despite all the groans that may ensue the Flower class Corvette has made it again. I started building mine some months ago but now must agree with those , at the time, who said that it's a long way short of being a great kit! (good,but not great.) For all those who are about to start or are thinking of trying it I would advise against PE railings. This wonderful product which works so well in the "3-figure" scales just doesn't look right at 1/72nd. My solution has been to use turned brass stanchions intended for R/C boats, I've found that 12mm tall 3-bar stanchions are perfect and fine copper wire for the rails. The discussion on turret top colours has set me wondering. How much do you trust eye witness reports! The many accounts written by veterans are corroberated by contemporary photos but most of these are in black and white so can the account be relied upon? We that come after must trust the memories of those who were there. In the absence of written records ( 200 litres of bright yellow paint delivered to BISMARCK on a certain date) the eyewitness report are all that is left and the passage of time is erroding this resource. The quest for accuracies must combine all research sources and is a time consuming task, but we are in the unique position of having an international forum to compare material and reach a definative solution. It will be interesting to see if a consensus of opinion can be reached in this matter. Many thanks to Bob Mitchell for his comments on Revell's ARK ROYAL. I was actually answering someone else's enquiry, but it was all useful info though. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Duane Fowler Subject: Bimarck's missing turrets Don't look for the answer to the Bismarck turret color in Dr. Ballard's book. Unfortunately the main turrets fell out of the hull of the Bismark as she sank. Although at least one was located, it was upside down on the ocean floor mostly buried in the mud. I don't think there is much hope in turning it over. Pictures of the Bismarck soon before she sailed (Hitler's visit on May 5, 1941 in Ballard's book) showed that the barrels of the main guns were painted a solid color and not two shades as on other ships. Regards, Duane Fowler -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "Robert J. Mitchell" Subject: RE: ANTI FOULING ON US CARRIERS As a new subscriber, I have to say debating wih everyone this last weekabout the Bismarck has been the most fun I've had in ages. All the modellers seem to be tankies in this town. I've just been researching modern US Carriers, in particular, a pic of the USS America off Naples.. The paint below the boot topping is almost grass green instead of the more usual red. Is this is colour common or is the America an isolated case. It would help as one of my interest's is the Gulf of Tonkin yacht club during the Vietnam War If you need info on British Carriers call SMML or drop me an E-mail, I've got quite a Library. Hope you'll forgive the occasional typo in some of my letters. Shift work begins to tell by the end of the week. Regards Bob Mitchell -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: "Joćo Andrade Guerra" Subject: London Model Shops Hi SMMlers: I am going to London this Friday and I will be staying there for a few days. Can someone on the list suggest good Model Shops to visit there ? I am interested in 1:700 kits and 1:1250 ship miniatures. Obviously I will need the name and address. Thanks in advance. JAG -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: Michael Kear Subject: Found a Flower Class Corvette G'day Everyone, Seems Tom Dean and I are both looking for a Flower Class Corvette for the same person. He's set two hares a-running after the same thing. If he doesn't watch it he might end up bidding against himself for the model. Anyway, I've found someone who has it, and have passed this information back to the corvette-seeker. I guess next thing he'll be looking for research information about the class. Cheers, Mike Kear AFP Models. Windsor, NSW, Australia. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Caroline Carter" Subject: Re: 1/500 Scale aircraft Hi Guys, Thanks for the feedback... you will be glad to know that we have given the go-ahead for the following 1/500 Scale master patterns from Brian Fawcett (so you KNOW they'll be nicely detailed and accurate)... aircraft will be 2 to a bag. There will be no photoetch provided.. however, we will probably retool our 1/700 Fixed Wing Aircraft Parts to 1/500 Scale to provide generic props etc.. Dauntless Avenger Wildcat Hellcat Devastator Also, re. a personal request, we WILL be doing the following in 1/400 Scale GRUMMAN S2F Tracker ASW Hunter-Killer aircraft GRUMMAN E1-B Tracer We would be happy for you to register your interest now (2 per bag) for any of these subjects, to give us an idea of how many to cast up once the patterns are made. Cheers Caroline Carter White Ensign Models http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume