Subject: SMML01/10/98VOL319 Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 23:57:38 +1000 (EST) shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Airfix Vote - Last Call 2: UPC HMS Revenge 3: Accenting modern ships? 4: My last post on the subject (Honest!) 5: Re: Fletcher Conversion 6: Queries on Japanese WWII facilities AND Re: Hull scratching 7: Arizona, Kingfisher recovery & Yamatohilics R Us 8: Shipboard floatplane recovery 9: Reference books 10: Britannic 11: 5" 51 cal guns 12: HMS Sussex (with regards to Caroline) 13: Re: Arizona Guns 14: Re: DML, Dragon, Shanghai Dragon 15: Re: American Flowers 16: Re:Copyright 17: Re: HMHS Britannic 18: USS IOWA COLORS 19: Re: KASKASKIA 20: Re: HMS Ark Royal 21: Re: A.A Ark Royal 22: Lindberg LSD Question 23: "Send them flowers...." - USN Corvettes -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Warship Update -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Felix Bustelo Subject: Airfix Vote - Last Call Hello everyone, I running out to catch a flight and I wanted to issue a final call to submit your choices for the Airfix vote. I will be out the rest of the week, so the deadline is extended until 10/5, which in Monday I get back. So if you haven't voted yet and wish to, do it now. Thanks Felix -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Felix Bustelo Subject: UPC HMS Revenge I was browsing in a hobby shop that has tons of OOP kits and I ran across this kit. It was a UPC HMS Revenge with no scale but I imagine it was 1/600 or 1/500. Has anybody know anything about this kit and company (I think that UPC stands for Universal Plastic Company, according to the fine print on the box)? Is this the same kit that Revell Germany released of the HMS Royal Sovereign? Thanks, Felix Bustelo -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Les Dorr Jr." Subject: Accenting modern ships? Sorry if this is a repeat request. I've misplaced any suggestions I received. I'm within a hair of finishing the Revell 1:542 Franklin D. Roosevelt. Got the flight deck all nice and used-looking, but the vertical surfaces (gull gray) look very monochromatic. Can anyone offer some tips on weathering or accenting so that the model will look more like a real ship? Also...in the 50s, what color were the mooring blocks on US ships? My guess is black, but can't tell from photos. The FDR has *lots* of them. Les -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Les Pickstock (Les Pickstock) Subject: My last post on the subject (Honest!) Vimieraa@aol.com wrote >> Therefore as I now see it ,there were six pom poms fitted, of which five were connected to the pom pom directors , of which there were six in number. << From the material I've seen the situation was that irrespective of the number of directors the 2 extra AA guns fitted were not connected to any director system at the time of Operation Halberd ( a re-supply of Malta) If this was rectified after the ARKs return to Gibralter is not discussed anywhere that I've seen. As you so rightly say the detail is important but it is so easy to forget the big picture and not build any models. I was also wondering if you could include your name in the posts as I feel daft discussing things with your e-mail address. Bob I sincerly hope you don't feel that I am only trying to "score points" of people. Nothing could be further from my mind. As I've said before I feel it's very important that this forum is used to collate and disseminate information that is both accurate and useful. The very fact that this feature of that wonderful ship was only fitted towards the end of her life is important as most the kits of her have them fitted representing her in a very small time "window". I agree completely as to the validity of "secondhand" accounts of places, things and events but as the years go by this will be all we have left and we wil have to take somethings on faith. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Bruce Ross-QBR000 Subject: Re: Fletcher Conversion As far as the recovery of the aircraft, Rusty gave a pretty good description of the operation. There were a number of different methods that were imployed for the recovery depending on the type of ship, the sea conditions, number of aircraft to recover, etc. In the case of the DD's, it was found that the ship did not provide enough of a slick for the plane to land in and therefore the only way they could assure the recovery of the plane was for the ship to come to all but a complete stop. I've read that while Stevens was in the midst of one of these recoveries while participating in the Tarawa operation that they received word there was a sub in the area. Needless to say the captain wanted the plane aboard yesterday!! There was a crane mast mounted on a movable platform that stood above the deck about 3ft. If you look real close at the pictures you should also notice that there were two stays that go forward from the top of the mast. One anchored on the 01 level port side and the other appears to anchor on the main deck. On the Stevens there was a support frame on the main deck that the crane boom would be secured in during nonoperations, as best I can tell it stood about 2ft above the deck. If the Blue Water Navy kit doesn't have the crane then it was definitely an oversite, all the references I've seen indicated that the crane was hardmounted to the main deck. And if it didn't have the crane how would they have got the plane back aboard?? Bruce Ross -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: jpoutre@lehman.com (Joseph Poutre) Subject: Queries on Japanese WWII facilities AND Re: Hull scratching Firstly, a couple questions: What would a WWII-era dock in a Japanese naval port have looked like? Would it have been all wood, or painted wood, or partially or completely covered with something, like asphalt. I'm working on a diorama in 1/700 scale, have the dock, but don't know how to detail the surface of the dock itself. Also, how would the harbor craft have been painted? Would the wood decks have been painted over? Would they have been armed? Now, a followup to Douglas Bauer : If you're not a purist about materials, and are comfortable mixing media, may I suggest a carved wood hull for your Kaskaskia? Using bass wood and the appropriate templates from the plans should be as easy as, if not easier than, the method you describe. Modern ships have rather simple hulls and the only difficult parts would be the prow and getting a smooth curve at the stern. After it's completed, seal and prime the wood, glue on a styrene deck, and the rest of the model goes together with plastic cement. You can even do the basic superstructure as a few wooden blocks, though this will require more planning. Now I haven't done this myself yet on more than a toy-type boat, but I will do so eventually for some projects of my own, including correcting the flat-bottom hull of some Revell models, and eventually scratchbuilding, since everyone knows that the only real modellers are scratchbuilders. :-) Joe Poutre -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Michael Connelley Subject: Arizona, Kingfisher recovery & Yamatohilics R Us Hello: Thanks to Les for his note on canvas covering the openings for the casemate guns. That definately would save me some anguish. Close examinanton of some photos of Pennsylvania in 1942 shows rolled up cnavas just above the casemate openings. Being something of a modeining masochist, I may just scratch built a gun then cast resin copies for myself and then make the rolled up canvas above the openeing. Whatever road I take, thanks for the tip. Regarding the recovery of the Kingfishers. I have seen similar stock footage of the recovery of the plane. The ship tows a large net in the water beside the ship (I don't think they did it behind the ship to keep the plane out of the ship's prop wash). The pilot would alight on the ocea a safe distance from the ship and taxi in. When he was close he'd deploy the hook on the front of the main float on the kingfisher and drive the plane onto the net. Then the hook caught on the net and the deal was half over. Then they'd lower the crane hook and the observer would attach the hook to a bulkhead around the center of gravity of the plane....and UP THEY GO! A better way to bring aircraft aboard non-aircraftcarrier was only developed with the advent of the helicopter. There are a few good Yamato web sites. However, they tend to be hard to find since whenever you do a web search on "Yamato" you get a ton of sights on the old Japanese cartoon. Anyway, here's one of my favorites: http://www.skypoint.com/members/jbp/yamato_c.htm This site has lots of info on the IJN and a nice few pages comparing the Yamato to other battleships of her time. There are also a nice picture of her and a few drawings. You'll also find info on about every other ship class in the IJN. I'm always in search of more Yamato sites, so if anyone knows of one PLEASE mention it here!!! Cheers Mike Connelley -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: BSteinIPMS@aol.com Subject: Shipboard floatplane recovery >> I believe the A/C recovery was done via a wide nylon floating net towed either from the back or the side. The Kingfishers ha a retractable hook on the bottom of the floats. Once in the water the pilot would maneuver the plane into position and drive it on the floating net. The hook would catch the net, the crane would swing out and was attached to the A/C by the pilot. I'm not a WW2 expert, but I saw some stock footage on TV showing the whole maneuver. I was quite impressed. << Rusty is basically correct here, and I'd like to amplify a few details. The ship could be moving during recovery operations (which made it much less vulnerble to submarine attack), usually 10 knots or so, and the floatplane would taxi alongside. The ship would stream a wooden frame raft covered with a cargo net called a mat on the surface. The floatplane would taxi forward onto the mat, the pilot would ease off the throttle, and the fixed (not retractable) hook on the bottom of the float would engage the netting on the mat. Now the aircraft was being towed by the ship and, theoretically, at least, didn't need its engine. Under low sea states the pilot could cut the engine, but most preferred to remain at idle in order to have a semblance of control. While the pilot remained at the controls, the radioman would leave his seat, stand on the wing, and hook up the ship's crane hook to the aircraft's lifting bridle. The crane would then lift the aircraft back aboard, either to the catapult, deck, or cradle for hangaring. Pilots were unhappy with the Curtiss SC Seahawk since it was a single-seat fighter with no radioman to attach the ship's hook to the lifting bridle. In this case the pilot had to be agile and acrobatic. For those with an interest in U.S. Navy floatplanes, the following two books are recommended: Larkins, William T., "Battleship and Cruiser Aircraft of the United Stetes Navy - 1910-1949", Schiffer Publishing Ltd., Atglen, Pennsylvania, U.S.A., 1996. Scutts, Jerry, "Fantail Fighters", Phalanx Publishing Co. Ltd., St. Paul, Minnesota, U.S.A., 1995. Bob Steinbrunn Minneapolis -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: BSteinIPMS@aol.com Subject: Reference books Those of you striving to build your nautical library and yet who find the cost of this appalling may be interested in the following: There is a source for many of the books you might want at significant savings, often 30%, 40%, and sometimes 50%. For example, I have been able to acquire the complete 15 volume set of Samuel H. Morison's "The History of U.S. Naval Operations in World War Two" for less than half price, a number of the Anatomy of the Ship Series, including the IJN Yamato (no, I'm not a Yamatoholic, but 40% off list price has its own beauty, it the actual vessel did not. :-) ), and many others. The firm is a publisher's overstock and close-out source, and is located in the state of Conneticut in the northeastern U.S.: Edward R. Hamilton, Bookseller Falls Village, CT 06031-5000 They also have a web site at: http://www.hamiltonbook.com Shipping is a flat $3.00 anywhere in the U.S., regardless of whether you order one book or 30, all books are new, and the return policy is generous. I have dealt with them for four years or so and can recommend them highly. And no, I have no financial interest or other connection with them. They maintain their low prices by not billing, taking no credit cards, and accepting only money orders or checks. I think that they will ship only within the U.S., but those of you in the "Mother country" or in any of the other "colonies" (sorry, Caroline :-) ) should have no trouble having someone here order and transship for you. Bob Steinbrunn Minneapolis -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: AllenFW2@aol.com Subject: Britannic Britannic Color Scheme: Hull: White with large green stripe encircling the hull. Red crosses between green stripe segments. Superstructure: White Funnel Color- Not sure...appeared to be tan. Decks were pine...not teak. Differences between Britannic & Titanic: Britannic was four feet wider but pretty much the same length. The main differences between the ships were as follows: Stern: Britannic had deckhouses in this area, Titanic did not Porthole/window arrangement: Britannic had a more "elaborate" window arrangement along the sides of the superstructure/hull Lifeboat Davits: This is the BIG difference...Britannic had 3 or 4 oversize davits in place in addition to the standard Wellin types. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: RKennedyCo@aol.com Subject: Re: 5" 51 cal guns The 5" 51 cal guns were always "open". They had removeable covers, made up of several sections, that were steel and were usually stowed unless heavy weather was encountered. A canvas cover was available. It was stowed by rolling it up, sort of like a tent flap. Whnever the weather permitted, i.e. no heavy rain, the covers on all of the 5/51 would be stowed to let in fresh air. These guns were not in a rotating turret, despite what some models show. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: YHSAIO@aol.com Subject: HMS Sussex (with regards to Caroline) Hello: Any of the SMMler's out there order the new WEM HMS Sussex? I just got mine this week and Caroline wanted me to post my impressions of the kit, so here goes. What can I say, it's typical WEM, with great instructions , great photoetch, and fine casting. The hull is impressive, especially the fine scale planking and fairleads, (or chocks, depending on whether you use the King's English or not). Not too many nits to pick, though I prefer the portholes to be more distinct. Nice job of casting the hatch and door details by MDC! All the weapons are in scale and there is no need to purchase anything else to complete the kit (except for paint and flyfishing tippet for the rigging). The photoetch is the best I've seen from WEM (until the next one shows up of course) and is complete! For those who have the Hi-Mold Dorsetshireor the B-Resina Suffolk, be sure to get this set. Of course, the Hi-Mold Dorsetshire has that nasty resin catapult and the WEM set comes to the rescue. To quote young Mr. Grace, WEM, you've all done very well! A final aside, I received my copy of Fine Scele Modeler today. Is it my imagniation or is FSM featuring more ship articles and reviews of ships? The last several issues have featured the Titanic, the USS Saratoga in her dazzle scheme, and a review of the Wave-Line USS Baltimore. In this month's issue, the new 1/700 Tamiya Y****o (that dreaded ship) is reviewed. There is also an Advertiser Profile on Bill Gruner and Pacific Front Hobbies. Looks like we ship modelers are finally getting some attention. Almost like the Ostfriesland getting her revenge on Billy Mitchell and the aviation fraternity (don't flame me, I have a Tamiya F-117 to build too!). Yunchi Hsaio (WEMblie by the good graces of Caroline and Dave Carter. No, I didn't get paid for this littlle missive). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "Mike Leonard" Subject: Re: Arizona Guns Michael Connelley stated: >> I just noticed that after the mid to late thirties the Arizona's casemate guns were open. Does anyone know why they made this change? << Suspect it was part of the modernization effort to not have guns exposed to the elements. Just a guess. >> Does anyone know where to get ten 5" 51 calibre guns in 1/429 scale??? I feel some scratchbuilding coming on here. << The poor quality 5" guns can best be replaced by castings by HR Products. They have a line of 1/384 parts that are a little under scale but usable. Much better than the kit parts, in any event. Write to: HR Products, PO Box 67, McHenry, IL 60051 or see them on-line at: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/~hracct I've slowly been working on the Arizona in recent months; the exceptional GMM set and the articles by Loren Perry on NAVIS really got me inspired to dig out the ancient kit. Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: louellet@uism.bu.edu Subject: Re: DML, Dragon, Shanghai Dragon I believe DML (Dragon Models, Ltd.), Dragon, and Shanghai Dragon are all really the same company. They may be separate corporations in different countries but I think someone has mentioned that they are all ultimately owned by the same firm. Fortunately for us shipmodelers, DML 'sold' many of their ship molds (and aircraft & armor) to Shanghai Dragon, who then reissued the exact same kits for much lower prices. They also picked up some of the Skywave/Pitroad 1/700 scale ships, added parts trees with lower hulls, running gear, and stands and reissued them at a price that is lower than the Pitroad waterline price! Revell-AG (Germany) also issued these same former Pitroad kits, also with the bottom halves. Larry Ouellette -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "Mike Leonard" Subject: Re: American Flowers Rob asked: >> Were the Flower Class Corvettes used by the USA as well as UK ? If so, did the USA use them in the Pacific? How? << They were used as a stop-gap measure until enough purpose-built escorts (DE and PC classes) were available, then I believe they were transferred to other Allied navies. About 10 Flower-class ships were commissioned in the USN in 1942. Sort or reverse "lend-lease". I'm sure that you can get the full scoop from somebody with the right reference library. MWL -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Bradford Chaucer Subject: Re: Copyright >> There may be copyright issues with this, but as long you are just making one sheet for your own use, I doubt too many companies would be upset. << Oh?? In that case would you mind sending me copies of your artworks so I can make my copies of your PE Sheets :-) Making one copy, or one thousand copies is a coppyright infringement unless the owner of the copyright has given his permission. >> Copyright infringement is as I understand it through our attorneys occurs when your product (decal sheet, model parts, etc.) is copied and sold for profit to others. << Would this be your matrimonial attorney?? Infringement does not require that the copy be made or sold for profit. The copyright owner has the absolute right to exclude others from making copies, subject to certain limitations that are spelled out in the Copyright Statute. Lack of sale is not one of the limitations. >> One interesting thing to note about copyrights. You CAN legally copy up to 20% of a total kit, decal sheet, etc. << OK if you don't want to send me copies of your artworks, send me copies of 200% of each so I can make my legal limit :-) The above is totally untrue. What you are alluding to is the Fair Use Exemption to Copyright. A very complex and usually misunderstood doctrine which says that it is not infringement to make a copy under certain circumstances, depending on a number of factors, including the intended use, the nature and extent of the use, the relationshuip to the whole, etc. There is absolutely no fixed 200% rule under U.S. Copyright Law. >> That's why you see so many DML lifeboats, helicopters, 5" guns, etc., on so many after market kits. From what I understand, if you produced and sold DML 5" guns and sold them in a five pack for instance, this would be illegal but if you used that same 5" gun as a small part of the total kit that's okay. I'm not saying this is good or bad, just interesting. << Either use that you describe above is an infringement. However it may be impossible to prove that they are copies of a specific part of a DML kit since both the copier and DML theoretically are trying to depict the same item, so their separate efforts should look alike DML may also choose to ignore the copying on the basis that it probably doesn't effect their sales, and arguably by increasing the scope of the modeling hobby it may boost their bottom line. However that is a business decision, not a legal decision. >> To answer the question, as long as you don't sell the parts to others for profit, you're pretty safe. << Not legally, however many copyright holders choose to ignore deminimus copying due to the cost of prosecuting it. However one of these days, some kit manufacturer may get sufficiently pissed off - then watch out, the infringer will be in for around $100,000 in legal fees should he choose to fully defend! And before anyone decides to fire up the email program to take issue with me, yes, I am an attorney as well as a modeler (and a chameleon keeper for that matter) Regards, Bradford Chaucer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: louellet@uism.bu.edu Subject: Re: HMHS Britannic HMHS Britannic wore the traditional hospital ship colors: white hull, with a red stripe down the middle interrupted by large green crosses. If the recent SS Haven hospital ship from Revell-Monogram is 1/720 scale you could use the decals from that kit. I believe the funnels were a buff color (not White Star Buff.) A good source of a color drawing is "Lost Liners" by Robert Ballard and company. There is at least one wonderful Ken Marshal drawing in the book. Also check out the Titanic modeling web site: http://titanic-model.com/ I think they have information on Olympic and Britannic as well. Don't worry about the size difference. All 3 sisters were slightly different sizes but that was probably unnoticeable even at 1:1 scale! The major physical difference beside the color scheme was that Britannic had many more lifeboats and 3 sets of *very* large davits to handle the additional lifeboats. These davits are very obvious in the drawings and pictures of the ship. Notice that they are asymmetrical; one of the forward sets was never installed before she was pressed into service. I'd like to see a drawing of these special davits, in any scale, so those who would like to do a 1/720 or 1/350 Britannic could scratch build them. Even better would be a 'conversion kit' from one of our many aftermarket suppliers that included the davits, extra lifeboats, and the hospital ship markings (both scales, too.) I'd buy one of each. Larry Ouellette -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: RVanda1839@aol.com Subject: USS IOWA COLORS Looking in the "Iowa Class Battleships" by Robert F. Sumrall it says on page 155 that Iowa was in Measure 32, Design 1B in 1944. This measure had navy blue (5-N) and light gray (5-L) on vertical surfaces. The Missouri on the other hand was in Measure 32, Design 22D in 1944. This measure used dull black, ocean gray (5-O) and light gray (5-L) on vertical surfaces. Rich Van Damme -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: ALROSS2@aol.com Subject: Re: KASKASKIA Since you're dealing with several deck levels, a convex stern, and substantial flare at the bow, it might be simpler to carve the hull from basswood. You can build up the bulwarks with sheet styrene faired into rebates in the hull with filler. Visit my web site: http://www.vbangor.com/alross/ - and take a look at the model of NAMAKAGON under the Naval Vessels section; it was built that way. Basswood fills well with standard automotive primers, a few coats being sufficient to provide a steel-like surface. Al Ross -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Sanartjam@aol.com Subject: Re: HMS Ark Royal Just when you thought it was safe to stop talking about the Ark Royal.... I think it is safe to say that by the time the Ark Royal was sunk she had six 8-barrel pom-poms (2-pdrs) and that the two on the port side were not fully connected to any directors. By my count, the Ark Royal had four directors, but I think that those would be for the twin 4.5" guns, not for the pom-poms; does anyone know if she carried any pom-pom directors (such as those used in the King George V class battleships)? As for plans of the Ark Royal of WWII, there are small-scale plans of her in Friedman's British Carrier Aviation and in Roger Chesneau's Aircraft Carriers of the World, and there is a very, very large scale set of plans at the National Maritime Museum (that would cost an arm and a leg). I have a set of plans (scale unknown but it's fairly large) put out by The Model Maker Plans Service and drawn by C.M. Vass, but they are not very detailed and I'm not yet convinced of their accuracy. When I first saw them, I was immediately put off by the reference to 4.1" guns instead of 4.5" guns. I got the plans from Bill Gruner of Pacific Front Hobbies, who could tell you more about them and if they are still available. Finally, we've had comments on the Revell 1/720 Ark Royal, but does anyone have any comments on the Airfix 1/600 kit? Cheers, Art Nicholson -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: "Robert J. Mitchell" Subject: Re: A.A Ark Royal Sorry to be the devil too. Ark had six Chicago piano's of which it sounds like five were wired electrically into the High-angle Director Circuit. but as far as I can see on the Drawings I have, there are only four directors. She never carried a radar equipped director above the bridge like the Illustrious's regards Bob Mitchell -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: Tom Eisenhour Subject: Lindberg LSD Question Does anyone know what class of ship the kit represents? How accurate is the kit? Thanks! Tom Eisenhour Austin, Texas -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: Tom Eisenhour Subject: Re: "Send them flowers...." - USN Corvettes Another source for information on USN Flower- and modified Flower-class corvettes is American Gunboats and Minesweepers by H.T. Lenton, one in the series of WW2 Fact Files, published by Arco in 1974. There are are several good high-angle photos and a description of how the USN modified the RN fit. If anyone would like copies of the four pages, e-mail your snail mail address to me directly and I'll send them to you. Tom Eisenhour Austin, Texas -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Rob Mackie" Subject: Warship Update This Warship (http://warship.simplenet.com) update includes the following new items: First Look at Iron Shipwright 1:350 USS Alaska Pic-of-the-week: US Navy Perry Class Missile Frigates (FFG) Chris Drage's stunning 1/700 diorama "Convoy JW58 to Russia, 1944" in the Gallery News and New Release Announcements from Iron Shipwright, White Ensign Models, Tom's Modelworks, and WSW Updated Pacific Front Recent Arrivals page Updated New Releases and Developments in 1250 Scale Added source of manufacturer information to 1250 History page Rob Mackie Warship http://warship.simplenet.com Yes! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume