Subject SMML21/10/98VOL339 Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 23:02:59 +1000 (EST) shipmodels@wr.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Modified Parts 2: numbering the posts 3: HMAS Sydney 4: Re: SMML Format 5: Re: SMML improvements. A suggestion 6: Missouri & New Jersey 7: Missouri/New Jersey 8: Re: Engineers 9: Re: Lawyers and other careers 10: Making things better...... 11: Physicists 12: Airfix Kits 13: RE: SMML Format 14: HMAS Sydney 15: Re. Yamato 16: Re: Lawyers, etc. 17: SMML IMPROVEMENTS? 18: HMAS Sydney 19: Re:USS Cape St. George 20: SMMLl format 21: Graf Spee green 22: Re: NITRO photo 23: WWI Ship Plans 24: Airfix 1:600 cruisers and destroyers 25: HMAS SYDNEY 26: GRAF SPEE paint -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Re: Flagship Models web page/ Address 2: WTD - References for 1968 CVAN65 3: Making it better - where do we draw the line? 4: Tamiya Enterprise -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Gene Larson Subject: Re: Modified Parts Björn Bäcklund wrote: >> (snip) I don't think I would dare the same thing if I was going to produce some kits that I was going to sell. << I misunderstood your question. I thought you were looking for "scratch criteria". I have seen many built up kits for sale, straight from the box and heavily modified. I don't believe this is a problem. As for heavily modifying a kit and then offering the kit(s) for sale is another question that I believe the lawyers have already answered. It seems to me the "Hand" of the originator is still on the parts that have been modified. Gene Larson, Alexandria, Virginia mailto:genenrg@Naut-Res-Guild.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "James M. Pasquill, II" Subject: Re: numbering the posts I'd suggest numbering the posts. I often view the contents to see if there is anything of interest in the daily edition. You number the content listing. If the posts were numbered I could more quickly find the posts I am seeking without needing to read the subject headings which are often lost in all the address junk that some email software generates. Jim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "RLOCKIE" Subject: HMAS Sydney The Australian War Memorial does indeed have a photo repro service, and, even better if you are outside Oz, a website. The address is http://www.awm.gov.au/awm_search/photo.asp and the records are held in a database. I tried typing HMS (HMAS, surely?) Sydney and it found over 32,000 records, although many of them were about the city as it seems to work on a word search basis (much like the IWM's internal system here in UK). Still, there should be at least something there of use. Not all of the records have images displayed but judging from my previous searches for Viet Nam era AFV material, there is a good proportion which can be viewed. Good luck. Robert Lockie -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: John Philip Downing Subject: Re: SMML Format Greg Lee (Listmaster - SMML) wrote >> I was just wondering if everybody is happy with SMML's layout? << Gosh, I thought they were supposed to be two lines. They are split before they reach my reader. If this can be changed, I would suggest no more than 80, perhaps 72 would be a good choice. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: SMML improvements. A suggestion >> Does anybody have any other suggestions on how we can make SMML better? << Greg, I'll bet this has been asked before, but here goes. Can we send file attachments with our SMML postings? I'm not sure what problems it would cause you on your end, but it would be great if I could download a photo (for instance) from one of the postings here. Of course the advantage would be that the information would be accessible to everyone on the list. I am getting ready to introduce my first model kit. I would love to attach a photo of the built up model for all to check out. Just a suggestion. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://navismagazine.com/flagship/flagship-models.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: KelDQ@aol.com Subject: Missouri & New Jersey Having built both kits, I feel qualified to answer. You absolutely DO NOT want to use the GMM New Jersey set on the Missouri. The brass for the NJ is for the modernized version of the Iowa class, and would be a total waste of money if applied to the MO. GMM also made an excellent set for the MO, which is specifically for the WWII version. I would take Greg's advice, get both ships! The NJ along side the Big E is an awesome sight! Kelly Quirk -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Randall S. Millar" Subject: Missouri/New Jersey Greg: Thanks for the insight - I felt pretty stupid about the whole situation, but what can you do? I wound about driving to a different location of the same hobby shop (in this case, Hobby Shack) and they had the NJ in stock.. It only took 3-4 minutes to convince the person behind the counter that yes, the Hobby Shack 20 minutes away IS part of the same chain and therefore he shouldn't have a problem with the exchange. Bottom line: got my NJ. Now the REAL problem is what to do about my wife - if you don't tell, is it cheating? :) As an aside, how do you prefer receiving content for SMML? Thanks again, Randy -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Foeth" Subject: Re: Engineers Well, I'm not one yet, but I am in my final year at the University, studying ship hydromechanics at the faculty of mechanical engineering and marine technology in Delft, Holland. I will try to graduate in January on cavitation, and I will probably do some work on a US 'hammerhead' propellor next two months. Evert-Jan Foeth -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Robert J. Mitchell" Subject: Re: Lawyers and other careers Hi Everyone, I'm not a micro-biologist, I'm a Security Consultant, I'm ex-Army (Infantry), I'm the Commanding Officer of an Air Cadet Squadron and I build ships. Anybody else in the gang interested in diversity. regards Bob Mitchell -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "John Tennier" Subject: Making things better...... Just a short note with a few (minor) suggestions: I would like to see once a month (or quarter) a general e-mail reminding me of how to log in/off, options as well as the archival site location. I tend to move computers a fair bit and sometime "lose" the info. This is just a house keeping/admin matter, overall the format and structure is superb. Cheers John -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "FERNANDO, YOHAN" Subject: Physicists >> Are there, dare I say it, any physicists out there in SMML land? << Does astrophysics count? I don't currently work in this field, but have a degree in it. I currently spend the time I am not building models managing corporate databases...where's the connection? Yohan Fernando -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Felix Bustelo Subject: Airfix Kits Boy, I go on vacation for a week and all hell breaks loose! First, Airfix is never going to re-release a 1/600 ship kit, let alone entertain any notion about new tooling and then I hear otherwise and they have two new re-releases to be announced, one of which sounds like the Hood (Amen!). I only hope that the other is the Queen Elizabeth. Well, now that I am back, I will draft the letter that will accompany the vote results and petition. While I agree with Malcom @ KingKit that 23 names is not terribly impressive, I hope that it will 23 additional names to a list or tally that Airfix may already have. Chip away the stone.... Could someone (Malcom, Caroline?) please post on the SMML what the Airfix re-releases will be when the are publically announced? I will certainly buy them when they come out. Felix Bustelo -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: JGordon262@aol.com Subject: Re: SMML Format Hi Greg, About the seperator lines: I get some of the wraparound you mentioned, but I hadn't even noticed it. I think its because I only have a 14" monitor on my Mac, and I'm using AOL which takes up a lot of margin space as well. No problems, it looks good on my end. Regards, Jim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "Douglas Martin" Subject: HMAS Sydney There is/was a book on the market (which I have somewhere), called 'Who Sank The Sydney'. Without getting my hands on it and quoting, there is a suggestion that the ship was sunk by a Japanese Submarine, maybe in conjunction with the Kormoran. Apparently 'drawings' from survivors were found, the men must have died later on, the Captain I think and crew were not the same as in the Med actions......just dont quote me. Officially the Sydney came too close and was hit very early on by Kormoran, with gunfire and torpedoes. Anyone with more info? Douglas (feeling another conspiracy coming on......) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: YHSAIO@aol.com Subject: Re. Yamato Mike Connely wrote: >> I found my book by chance at a local general book store even before I was a Yamatoholic...the book is the main reason that I am what I am today. Anway, I checked amazon.com and they said it's outof print but they can try to get it for you. Wouldn't hurt to ask. Their site also said that Skulski is coming out with a Anatomy of the Ship book on the Fuso, for those of you who like her. Amazon.com is selling it for about $15 less than the list price. << Mike: I had to reply to your post, because I'm a Santa Clara alumnus and physics graduate :-) Don't rely on Amazon.com for searching out of print books. I have tried them and so far they have not found any of the books I wanted. The best bet, albeit a rather pricey alternative (but hey, we Santa Clara students and ex-students come from rich families and were rejected by Stanford, right?) is Lodowick Adams in Alabama. Their free book search service will give you an answer within two days. The e-mail address is mailto:L.AdamsBK@internetMCI.COM, but I don't think the address is case sensitive. They will give you the condition and price of the book. I got my Yamato book from them, but it cost about $80 for a first edition, which isn't too bad for the wealth of info you get. Another alternative may be Model Art's Yamato book, which is still in print and costs about $30-35; however, it's in Japanese:-( The drawings are just as good as Skulski's and in many respects more useful. I'm surprised you can't contact Flagship Models because Rusty White is a frequent contributor to SMML. I guess he'll read your e-mail and contact you real soon. Hope this helps. Yunchi Hsaio (I won't tell you what year I graduated, as that will date me, possibly back to the Battle of Tsushima - but tell me this, is Father Hayn still around? Also, how do you find time modeling and getting decent grades :-) 'cause I never could balance the two?) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Mike Settle Subject: Re: jobs >> I'm an engineering-physics student at Santa Clara University and wouldn't do anything else, so I guess I'm among the engineers. Are there, dare I say it, any physicists out there in SMML land? << >> How about a Ph.D. microbiologist? I'm the principal scientist in a bacterial genetics and physiology unit at a major pharmaceutical company. My primary interest in ship modelling is submarines, and no, there is no good explanation for it. << Well, Tom, maybe the movie "Fantastic Voyage" had a greater effect on you than you realise :-) Mike Settle -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: Pacific Front Hobbies Subject: Re: Lawyers, etc. We have decided it would be best to take a stand to improve the moral climate of America, so we will no longer deal with the following groups of people: Lawyers, insurance salespersons, presidents (and their wives), drug dealers, telephone solicitors, Microsoft employees, espresso stand operators and auto mechanics. This list may grow... Bill Gruner Pacific Front Hobbies http://www.pacificfront.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: Kurt Van Dahm Subject: SMML IMPROVEMENTS? Greg: I am completely happy with your efforts and would never criticise...but you asked for input on possible improvements. You now number the submittals from list members and also from advertisers. However, these numbers are not carried over to the actual messages. I think it could improve the readability and/or usability of the list if the numbers from the list were carried over to the actual messages. This would make it easier to find a message one is particularly looking for or skipping those one is not interested in reading. At the present time one must scan each and every message to see the subject rather than just scrolling down till coming across the corresponding number from the list of messages. Keep up the good work. I truely enjoy the SMML list. Kurt Van Dahm Westmont, IL USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: Stuart Robottom Subject: HMAS Sydney >> It seems like photos of the Sydeny are as rare as hen's teeth. Does anybody in Oz have good photos of the Sydney in the camo scheme Mike mentions? << There are a few books out on the Sydney controversy which have some good photos, one from the AWM, one from Tom Frame and another by someone else. I can't remember their titles, they're at home and the brain isn't in gear this morning...There is a line drawing of the Sydney in cammo in one. >> Also I was wondering how a modern light cruiser could allow an auxiliary cruiser which probably had no modern fire control system to blow her out ofthe wate, considering the fact that the Sydney was a battle hardened ship with extensive service in the Med against the Royal Italian Navy. The Warship article on the Sydney mentions a possible cover-up concerning her loss. Can anyone enlighten us? As Fox Mulder is fond of saying, " the truth is out there". << The books above go into the details, from different perspectives, but apparently there was little/no armour over the comms for the fire control system. Also, Capt Collins was no longer in command, a new Captain had her and he had little or no experience. There had been quite a few raiders brought to action, and Capt Farncomb had been criticised by the Naval Board for wasting ammunition by firing from long range when he was on the Canberra. Apparently the Sydney just got too close. If you want more in-depth info, contact me off list. This is one of my pet subjects: 645 RAN personnel were killed, and all that has been found is one shot-up carley float. Regards; Stuart Robottom -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Jowfx@webtv.net (John Fox) Subject: Re: USS Cape St. George Skywave also makes a VLS Ticonderoga class cruiser in 1/700. You should check out the US Navy's web site. They have specific info on the Cape St. George which includes about 10 photos of her. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: Ron or Julie Hillsden Subject: SMML format Let me start by thanking you for this service, Greg. This list is more informative than the big name ship model list because there isn't any bickering and everyone is helpful. The discussions on the 'Y-----' have become flowery. I enjoy it all, even if I don't understand everything - like why would anyone want duplicate lawyer parts? &-) FWIW, I am using Netscape 4.xx, and there is an option to specify when to wrap lines. I set it at 60 characters. I don't get partial lines. The stuff I get looks better than what I send. BZ, and thanks again. Ron in Victoria BC Canada -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: "Alan Lindstrom" Subject: Graf Spee green A bit more on the Graf Spee's camouflage, supporting that it wasn't green. On page 66 of my copy of the "Battle of the River Plate" by Dudley Pope it states that from November 26-29, 1939, the Graf Spee's crew patched the rust spots on the hull and upperworks with red lead, then "started painting the ship with various shades of grey." (No mention of green, and you would have to question why the Spee would have been carrying a large amount of green paint at this time anyway.) The crew then also rigged a dummy second stack and a dummy second turret forward in order to make the Spee look like the Repulse. (Does anyone know what happened to the dummy stack and turret since they do not seem to have been present when the Spee entered Montivideo?) Alan Lindstrom -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: b29@ix.netcom.com Subject: Re: NITRO photo Thanks to John Snyder for the tip. I tried to e-mail you directly John, but my e-mail was returned. I'm trying to scratch build a model of NITRO/PYRO in 1250 scale. So I need good drawings, plans, photos etc. especially overheads so that I can see deck details such as bollards, winches, cleats, hatches etc. Paul -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: Lawrence Tam Subject: WWI Ship Plans Hi, Can anyone tell me where I can obtain ship plans for WWI British dreadnoughts? Especially HMS Inflexible or HMS lion? Thanks for any response. Lawrence -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: Minadmiral@aol.com Subject: Airfix 1:600 cruisers and destroyers Hi; Anyone know of a (cheap ) source for Airfix 1:600 cruisers and destroyers? I want them to build, cut to the waterline,for wargaming. Anyone else out there scratchbuild 1:1200 ships for wargaming? I have even tried 1:2400 but they`re too small for me. Chuck Duggie -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 26) From: "Pletscher-Lenz-Schneider" Subject: HMAS SYDNEY I think SYDNEY's sad end is not so much a wonder. You must keep in mind that SYDNEY was a light cruiser. That means she was only slightly armoured at her sides, whilke KORMORAN could fire a salvo of four 15 cm guns at each side plus some smaller weapons. As I remember, SYDNEY came very near to KORMORAN to control her identity, when KORMORAN suddenly tore off the camouflage buildings of her guns and opened fire at point blanc range. You can critizise SYDNEY's captain for having been fooled by KORMORAN's camouflage and for being not more cautious. But in the situation given, SYDNEY had no real chance after the first salvo had hit her. As for the camouflage pattern, I once found a good photo of her port bow in the book of Montgomery, Who Sank The Sydney?. An excellent broadside view of her port side is in the booklet of Ross Gillett, Fighting Ships Of The Royal Austalian Navy of the BMS Pictoral History series. A very poor photo of her starboard bow is shown in the book of Haines, Cruisers At War, but it shows that the starboard pattern was identical to that of her port side. Falk Pletscher -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 27) From: "Pletscher-Lenz-Schneider" Subject: GRAF SPEE paint Unfortunately I couldn't read the posting list during the weekend. So my comments, which John Snyder asked for, come a little late. As for the green, I agree with Dan Jones and Evart-Jan Foeth. The camouflage patterns were different shades of gray, mixed from the colors for hull, superstructure and decks. Main deck and after deck were of unpainted wood. It seems that also the first superstructure deck was planked - at least for some time. If this was not the case in late 1939, it should have been layed with linoleum. The platform around the funnel was of dark gray painted steel. Platforms at the bridge tower also were of dark gray steel, but usually were covered with wooden gratings. So you can paint them natural wood as well. If you want to give your model a special note, paint the nationality markings of her aircraft over with dirty blue - gray - blue cockades similar to the British insignias. GRAF SPEE's floatplane adopted this camouflage measure mid Oct. 1939 and should have carried it until the end. Falk Pletscher -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Flagship Models web page/ Address >> In general, what's the best way to get in contact with Flagship Models? I want to get their 1/400 surface ship propeller set but they haven't responded to my emails. If someone out there in SMML land has this and would like to sell/trade, I'm all ears. << Mike, I regularly read this list. So getting hold of me is not difficult. I do have the props in stock and I'll be happy to send them to you. Check out my web site and you will have all the info. you need to order. You can also view the entire product line, download current catalogs and email me from there. I got your email, but for some reason the system kept sending back your mail as undeliverable. Go figure. Anytime you can't reach me by email, use the mailing address below. Sorry to leave you hanging. BTW, if anyone wants my cataloge just write or ask. My website URL is, http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ My mailing address is: Flagship Models Inc. 2204 Summer Way Ln. Edmond, OK 73013 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: John.Kauck@rrd.com Subject: References for 1968 CVAN65 Hi Folks, I'm building the Revell 1/720 USS Enterprise CVAN-65 and one each of the aircraft that flew off her in 1968 in 1/72. Regarding the ship, I'm looking for color reference photos of her flight deck and the tower configuration as she appeared in 1968. While I know this is a ship modelers newsletter, I also need some references for a few of the aircraft so the 1/720 as well as the 1/72 aircraft are accurate for 1968. I need references for the following: VA-56 "Champions" A-4E Skyhawk VAW-112 E-2A Hawkeye VAH-2, Det 65 KA-3B Sky Warrior VAW-13 Det 65 EKA-3B Sky Warrior HC-1, Det 65 UH-2C Helo HC-7 Det 111 SH-3A Sea King I'll pay reasonable prices for any photos or books that have what I need. Thanks for any help you can offer. Email me, john.kauck@rrd.com John -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Greg Lee (Listmaster - SMML) Subject: Making it better - where do we draw the line? Hi, Just some additional notes, there have been some good suggestions about how to make SMML better, but there is something else I would like to bring up. As listmaster I guess I am very loose with moderation, most likely because its very rare I have to intervene. So when non-relevant threads evolve, I generally don't pull the reins as I personally feel its all part of the group that is SMML. I like to think that not only does SMML help you make models, but friends as well, because I have made hundreds here. But today I received this: >> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 10:22:00 -0400 From: "Jim McCormick" To: Subject: Re:SMML20/10/98Vol338 MIME-Version: 1.0 Status: U Greg: I'm not interested in all this sea lawyer stuff, and the ethicality of copying parts. Please remove me from you list. Thanks for everything. Jim McCormick mccormickj@dematic-us.com << This is very disheartening for me - I don't like to see anybody unsubscribe, but it makes me wonder about where do we draw the line? What is relevant? - What Is Not? Another thread which seems to have taken off is the "Are there any lawyers here?" thread. Today we have a few posts from people stating there occupations - should I withhold those because they are not relevant? Or post them because there are some of us on the list who are actually interested? Greg Lee (Listmaster - SMML) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Michael Connelley Subject: Tamiya Enterprise Hello: A little announcement. A guy on the PlaneTrading page of Hyperscale is selling his Tamiya 1/350 Enterprise plus an aircraft set plus the GMM photoetch set for $127 U.S. (200 Australian) plus shipping at cost. The URL is: http://disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?id=22553&article=314 The guys email is: scrundle@dynamite.com.au Just thought the rest of you would like to know since it sounds like a really great deal to me and I'd be on it like flies on sh!t but I'm realy not into CVs. Happy hunting Cheers Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume