Subject SMML31/10/98VOL349 Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 01:04:33 +1100 (EST) shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: KM Radar Antenna and Optical Devices. 2: More on Graf Spee Deck Colors 3: brass rod 4: Re: Civil War Ships 5: Re: Pacific Front Dilemma 6: Re: Lighting the Titanic with ventilation 7: Re: Air raid- This is no drill... 8: Re: Lighting the 1/350 Titanic 9: Re: An informative web site 10: Re: Mystery Ship Discovered! 11: Bill Gruner 12: Re: USCG Itasca 13: Re: Item 12-Pacific Front Hobbies 14: QE2 and other liners questions 15: Passaic Class Monitor Colors 16: Re: USCGC ITASCA 17: Re: Mountbatten Pink 18: Re: Internet Kit shopping/a cautionary tale 19: Keukuk 20: USCG Itasca 21: Advanced Celluclay methods 22: Re: Civil War books. 23: Repost: Fletcher Winches -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Tamiya Enterprise -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: DKrakow105@aol.com Subject: KM Radar Antenna and Optical Devices. Woops! I did not intend to set Mr. Jacobs on the defensive concerning his passion for collecting 1:1250 models. Nobody should have to defend their interest in a particular scale or type of ship model. My original comment was to the effect that people building USN models should be thankful for all the super primary research work that has already been done on the subject. I was prompted to make that statement by my frustrating search for accurate diagrams of the various FuMo radar antenna, range finders, etc in use by the Kriegsmarine. What is available is not accurate. On the other hand, I can pull superb diagrams of USN Radar antenna and range finders "off the shelf". They have been executed in accurate detail by Alan Raven and Al Ross and others. This is a true luxury that should be appreciated by the modelbuilding community, and thanks should be said to the folks who did all the research and drafting work. I am also looking intensively for accurate drawings or clear photos of the small optical targeting devices mounted on the bridge of Prinz Eugen for directing artillery, torpedos and searchlights. They are, as far as I know, not published. I have looked in a lot of archives for the original technical manuals, still no luck. These KM devices have not been accurately covered in the available literature. Mr. Jacobs, since you mentioned your collection of a thousand volumes, I would be most pleased if you, or anyone, could prove me wrong and direct me to a source of accurate and detailed information and drawings on the above- mentioned devices. Some of these devices may also be in museums in the USA... anyone know more? Cheers David Krakow Frankfurt Germany -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: DKrakow105@aol.com Subject: More on Graf Spee Deck Colors Concerning the Graf Spee's decks, I can make some definitive statements: First, the dark brown linoleum deck covering was NOT removed; The searchlight platform on the funnel was covered with this brown material; The so called "Nachtleitstand", on the forward-most superstructure directly behind turret A, was also surfaced with dark brown lino. (The Nachtleitstand is the forward area with swivelling optical devices. Aft of the stand's spinter shield are wooden decks.) I make these conclusions based on several shots of the Spee after it was scuttled. I can unmistakably make out the brass strips on the decks which were used to fasten the lino in these areas. Since lino was, in part, a weight saving measure, one can reasonably extrapolate that the other searchlight platforms, bridge wings and other bridge platforms were also covered with the brown lino. The 10.5cm twin mounts port and starboard of the funnel show a wooden grating beneath them, which is further evidence that the center island superstructure was covered with the brown lino. At some point, steel horizontal surfaces, such as the range finder and turret tops were painted a dark grey or black color. Bulkhead areas behind ladders were also painted dark grey. Presumably this measure was to cut down on glare and make footprints less noticable. Cheers David Krakow -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Percy, John" Subject: brass rod Hello all, I need some advice from those of you experienced with replacing masts, yardarms, etc with brass rod/wire. I'm mostly interested in scalces 1/500-1/800. I've tried doing it in the past without success, and I'm tired of the plastic ones snapping off at the slightest touch (especially smaller scales). 1) Where do you get the stuff? Is it just plain jane wire from radio shack, or can you buy it at a model shop? I have not been able to find, say, a bag of straight lengths of brass rod (other than the real big pieces you can find at hobby shops that is live 1/32 inches thick).I've tried using the stuff that is rolled (thick wire), but can never get it straight. 2) Do you use brass wire, rod, or tube? Does it matter? 3) How do you assemble with brass without it obviously looking like some guy glued together two pieces of brass rod/wire? IE, I've tried to replicate a simple t shaped mast, and the joint just looks awful, all clumpy and whatnot. 4) Do you actually use glue (cyano, white, etc) to join brass to brass, or do you use some other method, like soldering? 5) How do you cut lengths of the stuff without the cut end getting pinched? IE, the round cross section of the rod gets distorted (technical term - smooshed) when I cut it. Help! John Percy -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Shane & Lorna Jenkins Subject: Re: Civil War Ships Hi Rob, While I don't have many references on the American Civil War, a book I found interesting was Clive Cussler's book "The Sea Hunters". This deals with Cussler's passion with shipwrecks & covers the amongst others the following ships: Republic of Texas ship Zavala USS Cumberland & CSS Florida CSS Arkansas The Hunley HTH: Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Pacific Front Dilemma >> Anybody hear from Bill over at Pacific Front Hobbies? Is there something I don't know? Faxed an order and two e-mails...no reply. Perplexed, Steve Rogers << Steve, I got a voice mail order from Bill about a week ago. I wouldn't be concerned. He's probably very busy. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Lighting the Titanic with ventilation >> I'd like to use 2 bulbs in the hull with fiber optics running up to various positions on deck, etc.. Can anyone give me a detailed list of what i need (ie..volts and amps of the bulbs, what type of power supply, maybe a description of the circuit, etc.). I'm not very good with circuits or electronics, but i would like an on/off switch, and for it to plug into the wall. << Bill, I would suggest one Florissant tube in the hull. The one thing you need to remember using bulbs in plastic models is to have plenty of ventilation to eliminate the heat the bulb and electronics cause. I'm sure you have figured this out. I would hollow out the stacks. That would give more than enough ventilation for the lights. Just a thought. Sorry, can't help with the electronics. I would suggest a trip to your local Radio Shack. They will be able to get you set up with what you need. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Foeth" Subject: Re: Air raid- This is no drill... Well, I have some problems with him too: Shipments far too late, pieces of orders forgotten, complete orders not send, etc. I ordered two Blue Water Navy Kingfisher sets, and they send them in an envelope! The were completely crushed by the time they arrived. Well, they were worth crushing, anyway, and I kept the PE part and the decals. Evert-Jan Foeth -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Foeth" Subject: Re: Lighting the 1/350 Titanic Go to http://titanic-model.com/ Evert-Jan Foeth -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Foeth" Subject: Re: An informative web site I though 268 dead (Including Capt Kennedy) and 40 survivors (Scharnhorts picked up 21, Gneisenau 6, and the Newcastle 13). It is a classic example that the fast liner is inadequate as a merchant cruiser. The germans understood this, but the British did not. They recruited I believe 50 merchants. Such a ship is fast, but presents an awfully large target. The Scharnhorst had no difficulty destroying her. But, they did offer the Rawalpindi several times to surrender, to escape destruction. Capt Kennedy decided to attack, and scored one hit with a 5.9" gun, which failed to penetrate the battleships (please people. it's a battleship, not a cruiser) armour. The Britsih crew are said to have opened fire with even machineguns and riffles. The Rawalpindi was reduced to a blazing hulk within minutes, of course. The Scharnhorst and the Gneisenau stopped to pick up survivors in difficult weather, but were driven of (scared away) by the Newcastle, which was not a difficult target for either of the sisters. The Rawalpindi sank capsized as the cruiser approached. I recently spoke with a P&O engineer (Dave Swindell), on a new Rawalpindi. His grandfather was chief engineer on the original. He was off course very proud to be assigned to his new ship. I guess Capt Kennedy never asked his grandfather if it was a good idea to attack the Scharnhorst. Evert-jan Foeth -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Katz, Gene S" Subject: Re: Mystery Ship Discovered! Yes, it is the HMT Rohna. Thanks to the list for refreshing my memory. I had never heard of the incident prior to the brief mention in a booksellers list. I knew glide bombs sank the Roma and hit some cruisers in the Med, but the Rohna was a new find. Gene S. Katz -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Torgeson Roger A Subject: Bill Gruner Steve, as of 10/19/98 Bill was still going strong. Placed a phone order on the 16th, received it on the 20th. I would bet you will hear from Bill real soon, and read tomorrow a lot of responses from SMML members who have talk to, or received goodies from him in the last few days. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Lance King Subject: Re: USCG Itasca >> I would like to obtain any information regarding the US Coast Guard Cutter Itasca. My father-in-law served aboard this vessel from 1938 to 1940 or 41 so this is a matter of personnel history for my family. << Allan Pat Hreachmack is currently writing a book about USCG cutters; Secretary and Tampa classes. Since he is already a published author (The Painters Guide to World War Two Naval Camouflage - to be re-released in time for Christmas with lots of new info), he is getting a lot of access to coast guard records and has attended several of the recent reunions connected with WW2 service. He can be mailed at Seapatrick@surf-ici.com Best regards, Lance -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Allan Salas Subject: Re: Item 12-Pacific Front Hobbies I recently received an order from Bill a couple of weeks ago. He isn't great about responding to fax's, never had a response (4-5 faxs sent). He will pick up the phone, usually in the afternoon and I've had some pretty good converstions with him. My only complaint is that it takes about a month for your order to be received. He is still updating new arrivals on other links so I assume that he's still in business. Allan Salas -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "Juergen F. Mayer" Subject: QE2 and other liners questions I'm new on this list and apologize for questions that might have been discussed in length at earlier times. Around 30 years ago I built the Airfix 1/600 liner kits - Mauretania, QE, France, Canberra, QE2 - as well as Revell's United States. Around 10 years ago I lost them while my parents moved. I saved other models but not those that were my beginners and not best quality. Recently the wish grew to have them again. I found out that the kits are no longer available. I thought I could get them in London but failed and learned part of the Airfix story. Now, the Canberra is back in the Airfix catalogue and maybe the others will follow (?). Last week, at a model fair I found a used copy of the QE2 kit. I spent one night to mechanically remove the thick glossy colour that was on the hull. I also bought the Queen Mary kit from Revell and ordered two GMM merchant ship detail sets. Being prepared to build the kits that I already have now, some questions arise. 1) What colour is the best for the hull part under water? Airfix instruction kit says M1, a clour table on the web transfers this to Humbrol Matt 70. I wanted to buy it, but when I saw it, I couldn't believe that this the rigth colour. Photos (e.g. by Cowen) indicate a more red colour than the brownish "brick red" the Humbrol 70 incorporates? 2) Can I achieve good results with painting or do I have to use air-brush? 3) Shall I use matt colours throughout the model except for the pools? 4) What's the best colour for bulleyes and windows? 5) How do I get information about the colouring of the decks or details of these liners? 6) Where do I find photos of the QE2 before their reconstruction at the end of the 80s? (The Cunard Archives are no longer available on the net for a long time.) What tone of grey-black did the QE2 have then? Did she really have an anchor directly at the bow as the kit has? I already called Cunard Germany but I don't think they will send material of the ship in its original shape. 7) How do I get best results for the white strip between the red and the black hull section? 8) Are there helpful hints on the web to make these models more perfect, e.g. for using the GMM sets? 9) What's the most promising way to get the other kits (QE, France, Mauretania, United States, Free Enterprise 2)? 10) Are there any other merchant ships around in 1/600? How about the quality of the 1/570 Titanic of Revell? Sorry for being long and asking amateur's questions. I'm out of business for 25 years. Perhaps someone finds the time to help me with the one or the other question. Juergen Stuttgart, Germany -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "Michael Mathyk-Pinto" Subject: Passaic Class Monitor Colors I've asked this question before and never, ever got a response - so I'll try this list: Does anyone know what color bands the passaic class ironclads used during the attacks on Fort Sumter? I have good source ref's that say that the ships where black overall, ant that color bands where used to identify the identical monitors of this class - but no info on what colors where used. Any help would be great! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: USCGC ITASCA ITASCA was one of the 250-foot "Lake" class cutters, built by General Engineering & Drydock Co. in Oakland, California. She was launched 16 November 1929, Commissioned 12 July 1930. She made a goodwill cruise to Mexico and Central America in January 1940, and later that year was employed on Bering Sea Patrol and used as a "floating court" (whatever that means). She was transferred to Great Britain 30 May 1941 as their hull number Y92, and renamed GORLESTON. She was later returned, retired as ITASCA (WPG 321) on 23 April 1946, and sold on 4 October 1950. About the class, Robert L. Scheina writes: "The 250-foot class was designed by the Coast Guard. Captain Q.B. Newman, USCG, designed its innovative turbine-electric-drive power plant, which developed an amazing 3,000 shp. These were the first ships to have alternating current, synchronous motor for propulsion. The whole ship ran off the main turbine. The auxiliary generators were tied into the main geneerator electrically, after sufficient speed was attained. At that point, no steam was required to drive the turbines on the auxiliary generators. The propulsion plant achieved remarkable efficiency. The first five cutters were contracted on 6 July 1927. This class had a slightly raked stem and a cruiser stern. These features were an attempt to improve sea qualities over the 240-foot class, particularly for service on ice patrol. In December 1940 Chief of Naval Operations, admiral Harold Stark, USN, informally told Commandant Russell Waesche, USCG, that he would request four units of this class for naval use in the Caribbean. However, President Franklin Roosevelt decided to make all ten available to Great Britain under lend-lease, and they were transferred. To replace these cutters, the Coast Guard was authorized to build the 255-foot cutter class." Source: Scheina, Robert L. _U.S. Coast Guard Cutters & Craft of World War II_. Annapolis: Naval Institute Press, 1982. John Snyder -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: Mountbatten Pink Funny, Mountbatten Pink Dark is one of the colors we're having matched right now.... Randy should be working on coming up with a model paint mix as well. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: "Caroline Carter" Subject: Re: Internet Kit shopping/a cautionary tale Hi James et al. Just thought I'd pass on our experiences re. Japanese imports and the U.K market (Colin Ritchie might also like to add a cautionary note re his Enterprise..) >> Here is some information that may be of interest to UK-based modellers. Despite the strength of the Pound, list prices here for (especially Japanese) mass produced injection moulded plastic kits remain high. << And actually going up in some cases (Tamiya 1/700 kits are due a price hike shortly). >> there is always the opportunity to shop around for a sale, the number of internet mail-order retailers based here is actually quite small. There just might be some benefit in shopping abroad for the larger, more expensive, << Re-writing your Tamiya 1/350 Enterprise scenario as an example... last year due to UK supplies drying up, we decided to obtain one from Japan, reckoning that we could probably match or even undercut the U.K price. We paid 18,000 Yen and opted for SAL.... insured Surface Air lift which took 5 weeks... shipping on this one item alone cost us almost 40% of the retail price, we noted with horror when the CC statement arrived a couple of weeks later... we had also had a 6% credit card charge added to the bill... in the UK, most companies actually absorb that charge.. When the kit arrived, the actaul cost was declared on the box and an extremely fat customs demand awaited, which had been calculated as follows: The kit cost was added to the shipping, ie 7,000 plus 18,000 yen and this total had an 8% Customs charges... 2000 Yen added.. giving a total paid, of 27,000 Yen... then of course this total was subject to VAT at 17.5%., giving a paid total of 31,725 Yen. Oh and they don't finish there... an "inspection charge" of £6.25 about 1250 Yen was added... this is a total of 32975 Yen... and add on to this the 6% surcharge on the order.. an extra 1080 Yen.. this means that from distributor to doorstep we paid a total of 34,055, or about 170.00 pounds.. we are VAT registered so reclaim VAT. However, the U.K VAT inclusive retail of 149.95 is starting to look pretty cheap.. we of course passed this kit on to the customer who wanted to pay no more than the U.K retail.. at a considerable loss to ourselves. >> UK internet mail order (Hannants) £149.00 + p&p - say £165 all in. << Some of us ship UK post free for orders over £70.00! And yes we have an Enterprise in stock at the above price... Hannants and ourselves, unlike some companies in the U.K., deduct the 17.5% VAT for export by the way. >> Mail Order from the US ....... (UK£ 1 = US$ 1.67) Many more Internet shops here, so your chances of finding a special offer, or whatever, are far better. I have seen this kit at $199, and also at $118 (!!!!). In this case (ModelExpo) $118 + p&p - about £95 all in. << I would suggest (from bitter experience) getting the mail order company to give you a faxed/E-Mailed quote on shipping and hold 'em to it, bearing in mind that customs and VAT etc. will add a CONSIDERABLE chunk on to your outgoings. >> is a problem........ but it still doesn't explain why the kit costs more UK £ than it costs in the US in $. << Many of the US mail order cos. have massive buying power.. and when I mean massive, I mean that these companies can be bringing $200,000.00 orders at a time, so they can go direct to the larger Japanese distributors and get big discounts and ship container-loads of the stuff by surface shipping in bulk (this will probably give them a tiny percentage cost for the shipping element). Also, we in the U.K as retailers, are not allowed to go anywhere else in Europe to buy Tamiya kits from another distributor.. and we know we COULD get them cheaper in Germany... this sort of protected trading is in fact not allowed in the E.C. but they still do it! Thanks James, for bringing up an important subject.. I am sure that there are many out there who will find this discussion extremely useful! Cheers Caroline Carter http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: Alberto Rada Subject: Keukuk Hi Ray Lagomasino's comments on Cottage Industry Models are absolutely correct, their models are very well done, just a note, besides their Their 1/32 CSS HUNLEY and CSS DAVID (spar torpedo boat) they now have released, also in the same scale the USS Keukuk with a cutaway of the towers, so you can see all their interior details. All 3 models will be reviewed shortly in Warships SALUDOS Alberto -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Duane Fowler Subject: USCG Itasca Hello Alan, Try contacting the USCG Museum in Seattle, Washington. They have plans and ships histories for most 20th century ships. They're address is: US Coast Guard Museum, 1519 Alaskan Way South, Seattle, WA 98134 They are open Monday, Wednesday, and Friday from 9AM to 3PM PST and their telephone number is: (206) 217-6993. I have gotten lots of help from them on ships plans and histories. Regards, Duane Fowler -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: JGordon262@aol.com Subject: Advanced Celluclay methods >> How do you overcome the lumpy, oatmeal consistency of the Celluclay? This was another reason I stopped using it. << Since I started this, I thought I'd jump back in. Mike's idea of adding white glue to the celluclay is advised, as is coating your base with white glue and letting it dry before you put the clay on. Another important ingredient is a drop of dishwashing liquid added to the celluclay and white glue mix. The soap breaks down the surface tension of the water, allowing better absorbtion, less sticking to your hands or tools, and much less pull away from the base. Further, you can put the oatmeal like clay in your food processor or blender and give it a whirl for a few minutes. This creates a really smooth consistency suitable for still water dioramas. Lastly, don't force dry the celluclay- it is crucial that it be allowed to air dry at its own rate. You should not have pulling away or shrinking problems using these methods. Lastly, if you make your base from styrofoam you can shape the styrofoam into wave troughs before adding the clay, that way you do not have to put on thick layers of celluclay, one 1/8" thick layer overall should do it. Check out my IJN cruiser Tone article on Warship for photos of the finished water as described above. It is most convincing when photographed, giving very realistic light reflections. JG -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: dhjonespsm@juno.com (Daniel H. Jones) Subject: Re: Civil War books. I must confess that I held back on answering this post to see what would show up on the suggested reading list for Civil War naval books. The list that has been suggested is very impressive and fairly complete. I would add only a few titles to the ones suggested . The Photographic History of the Civil War (volume 6) The Navies by Francis Trevelyan Miller (originally published in about 1911 as part of a ten volume set). This (and the other nine) volume has been reprinted several times and is fairly easy to find. Some of photos are unique as the originals have been either lost or destroyed in the passage of time. Quality of the photo reproduction varies depending on the edition. The Image of War 1861-1965 (six volumes) This series has most of the better surviving photographs of both seagoing and riverine vessels within its pages, although they are randomly distributed throughout the six books. The printing and reproduction of the photos is very good. Although this was an expensive set when it first appeared it has been reprinted several times and has been sold on remainder for less than half the original price. Sets and individual volumes are fairly easy to find in used book stores. Touched by Fire (2 volumes) A Photographic Portrait of the Civil War by William C. Davis. Another photographic history - you only want volume one. That is where all the photos of ships and river vessels are to be found. Fortunately the first volume was printed in greater quantities than volume two and shows up in used book stores frequently. Since it is only half of a set it is also usually quite inexpensive Most of the photos here are the same as found in the six volume set and in Miller, but a few are unique to this volume. Charleston's Maritime Heritage 1670-1865 - an Illustrated History, by P. C. Coker. This is a beautiful book, one of my favorites, lavishly produced and illustrated. The illustrations include many paintings (reproduced in color) especially commissioned for the book and about half the material concerns the Civil War. P.C. Coker lives in Charleston and is a fine modeler, writer, and historian. The result is a book that is well written and researched and a pictorial feast for the model builder. USS Monitor - The ship That Launched a Modern Navy by Edward M. Miller (19780 Leeward Publication. hardcover with photos and plans, the most complete coverage of this fmous ship. CSS Alabama, Builder, Captain, and Plans. by Charles G. Summersell. (1985) A good history with all the original illustrations known of the ship, and a plans set copied from the original builders drawings (since destroyed) of the ship. Time/Life - The Civil War - Two of the volumes are worth getting, The Blockade - Runners & Raiders, and The Coastal War - Chesepeak to the Rio Grande. All of the above are out of print but well worth searching for. As for the current crop, I would echo the listings from other SMMLers. Greg Ogilvie and Ray Lagomasino, between them, have listed almost all the good ones, as well as several out of print titles, apart from those listed here. There is another photo book that is quite interesting - dealing with merchant ships (mostly paddle steamers) of this period. It is called: Photographic Portraits of American Ocean Steamships 1850-1870 (1986) published by the Steamship Historical Society of America. I believe this book may still be available from the SHSA. This collection of photos was assembled by the late Dr. C. Ridgely Nevitt and covers numerous ships that were pressed into Union service as transports during the war. In fact the best images are the result of an effort to photographically document these ships by the Union Army Quartermaster Corps. Had they not done so, probably no pictorial record would exist of most of these vessels. In comparison to the land battles relatively little has been published on the ships but it still is a fairly impressive body of work. Typically, when looking at the Civil War section in book stores, one is pleasantly surprised to find a single naval title. More often, there are none! My own collection of just Civil War ship books is modest in terms of what has actually been published over the years, but it still covers six shelves, each just under three feet in length. They are out there, but it takes some patient searching to find them. Of course there is a finite limit to the number of photos and plans that are known to survive, and most of the books use the same illustrations. The Gibbons book that started this thread is an enjoyable book to browse but in my opinion it is not a very good source for modeling reference. The artwork varies in quality as regards accuracy, and the colors are, well - "artistic". Lest this be misunderstood, I hasten to add that I like the Gibbons book, but I would not use the illustrations as a basis for a model. Dan Jones Plastic Ship Modeler magazine -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: "Foeth" Subject: Repost: Fletcher Winches This is a repost as nobody replied yet, and I am certain there are some walking Fletcher archives among us. So, how many winches did a Fletcher carry? I can spot two, but one was seemingly replaced by a practise loader (Or replaced it?). There is one winch on the portside of the centre superstructere, is there on one starboard too? Evert-jan Foeth -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Mark Knowlton Subject: Tamiya Enterprise All this talk of CVN-65 reminds me my friend Maurice has the Tamiya kit of the Enterprise with an air wing set for $140.00 plus shipping, contact him at hobbyhnt@ix.netcom.com Mark Knowlton -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume