Subject: SMML8/11/98VOL357 Date Sat, 7 Nov 1998 22:54:38 +1100 (EST) shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Mines on E-Boats 2: JMSDF and Kiev 3: KRIVAK Colors 4: German Coastal Forces of WWII 5: WWII USS Portland, USS San Francisco, USS Indianapolis 6: Small alphabet decals 7: Small alphabet decals 8: Ship Movies 9: Re: Ship Movies 10: Re: David Vs. Goliath 11: Re: Favorite Naval Books 12: Naval Books 13: Re: Krivack II colors 14: Favourite Naval Books 15: Book Lists and David vs Goliath 16: Heller instructions and...what do you use them for? 17: Re: David & Goliath 18: A lesson in USN Colors 19: Re: colours? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: TRADE PSMs are here!! 2: Re: 1/35 Close In Weapon System On The Way -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Arjun Sarup" Subject: Re: Mines on E-Boats As per the original message for E-Boats using mines, there may be a difference in the size of mines, since there was apparently a tethered type EMC, and ground mines of type RMA or RMB. This is as opposed to the torpedo type TMB and TMC mine and airborne type LMA and LMB mine. Arjun Sarup -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Dave Pearce" Subject: JMSDF and Kiev Does anyone know where I can get a current fleet list of the JMSDF, I want to work out which class each of the Skywave kits is. Also Art Nicholson mentioned the book Kiev and Kuznetsov Russian Aircraft Carriers (by Barry Dean), is this book still available? (P.S. I can also recommend the Slava, Udaloy and Sovremenny by Steven Zaloga, its an excellent photo reference). Dave Pearce -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Pletscher-Lenz-Schneider" Subject: KRIVAK Colors I have seen several Sovjet and Russian Warships when they came to visit Kiel Week, among them two Krivaks. It was remarkable to see, that every ship was painted in another tone of grey. So you can't say that there is a standard paint, as is for the US Navy. In 1992 the Krivak II frigate NEUKROTIMYY and the Sovremennyy class destroyer BYSTRYY made the first visit of Soviet fleet units to a port of the Federal Republic of Germany. While BYSTRYY had a neutral grey like Humbrol 141, NEUKROTIMYY was in a blueish grey like Humbrol 128. This year the Krivak I frigate DRUZNYY carried a new paint of very dark grey (Humbrol 32 or even 67). Other Sovjet/Russian ships that came to Kiel were neutral grey or even slightly greenish grey. Apart from these differences the general paint scheme of all ships was as follows: Hull and upperworks were of the same grey. Main deck and quarter deck were blackish grey (Humbrol 67). Superstructure decks had a reddish paint (Humbrol 100 or 62 + 100 mixed 1:1). This same color was also carried some 20 cm high around the base of superstructure and decks fittings, even where decks were painted blackish grey. DRUZNYY also had a stripe of this color painted along the outer edge of her main and quarter deck. Anchors, chains and sometimes pollards and deck vents were black. The hatches of the missile launcher silos had the same color as upperworks. Radar antennas on NEUKROTIMYY were a little darker than her overall paint, while on DRUZNYY they were distinctively lighter. BYSTYY's radar antennas were of a blueish grey despite of her neutral grey overall paint. In other cases radar antennas were of the same grey as the rest of the ship. Radar domes always had different tones of grey, mostly more greenish or brownish than the ship. This color also differed between the several types of devices and seemed to depend on the material of the domes. Masts had the same color as upperworks but sometimes were black or dark grey above the level of the funnel cap. The funnel top was always black. Boot topping was green (Humbrol 88) or black and always had a small white line separating it to the hull color. Hull numbers were white. They are no identification numbers to specific ships, but rather tactical numbers as they usually change when a ship is designated to another place or fleet. Falk Pletscher -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Minadmiral@aol.com Subject: Re: German Coastal Forces of WWII Hi; I like the list,although I do not do detailed models I do simplified models for wargaming.Mostly 1:1200 ,1:2400,1:6000,1:900,and 1:600. I am currently looking for a copy of `German Coastal Forces of WWII',by M.J.Whitley.Anyone out there know where I can get a copy? My current project is to build both fleets, waterline, in 1:900 for Trafalgar. I am using Portsmouth Miniatures. I have 60 SOL and 9 frigates to do. Does anyone know of a source for colors of ships at this battle? Most Brits are Nelson Chequor, Trinidad is red,and some French are blue? By the way,I am not rigging the ships because I am arranging the sails so that they are removable when a ship has mast/sail damage during battle. Thanks Chuck Duggie -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "Richard L. Neville" Subject: WWII USS Portland, USS San Francisco, USS Indianapolis Looking for 1/700 waterline models of the following: USS San Francisco, USS Portland, USS Indianapolis, and USS Chester all in the late 1943/early 1944 configuration. Just finished excellent model of USS Louisville by Corsair Armada and would like to locate something in that quality. Any suggestions? Have Pit-Road resin USS New Orleans 1942 conf. still in box and appears to be of excellent quality. I have seen they list USS San Francisco, does anyone know what year? As I am located in Cambodia there is not a dearth of hobby shop resources close at hand and internet time is relatively expensive. Any help would be appreciated. Rick -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: James Corley Subject: Small alphabet decals >> I found some 1/285 white waterslide decals from GHQ (intended for wargames vehicles) which I wanted for 1/76 scale WD census numbers, which might do the trick. They are about 1mm tall and come in groups of three, from 100 to 935 (numerals only, no alpha characters) and I think a black set is available as well. There are about 300 on a sheet, so they should last a while. << Robert & Doug, Another source you might want to look at is the Microscale 1/160 (N-scale) railroad line. They have several hundred sheets, some of just alphanumerics in various colors and styles. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Sheridan, John" Subject: Small alphabet decals If there is a real interest in doing the stern names, I'm sure that something can be arranged. I do have the US Navy alphabet on file and can re-create ship names in any scale required. The only problem I see is the fact that the letters on the stern of a US Navy ship are 12 to 16 inches high. Not too bad if you are modeling 1/350th or greater. But if your modeling 1/700th, 12" letters translate into somewhere around 1/57th of an inch high. These would look like little blobs of ink on the stern of the ship. John Sheridan @ Microscale Decals http://www.microscale.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Sheridan, John" Subject: Ship Movies Mike Leonard wrote: >> With the success last year of "Titanic", let's hope that someone in Hollywood decides to do a proper naval film with state-of-the-art special effects. Too many big budget attempts turned out to be fiascos with their pools filled with toy boats (as with "In Harm's Way", for example). << I would love to see a well done movie about the Naval Battles of Guadalcanal in 1942. Think of what could be done with CGI and well made models. With the success of Pvt. Ryan, a movie on this subject is not out of the question. All it takes is money, motivation, money, money, and, of course, more money . John Sheridan @ Microscale Decals http://www.microscale.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Greg Lee (Listmaster - SMML) Subject: Re Ship Movies Mike Leonard wrote: >> With the success last year of "Titanic", let's hope that someone in Hollywood decides to do a proper naval film with state-of-the-art special effects.. << Under Siege has it for my money - NOTHIN BUT MO!:-) A great source for reference. Greg BTW - what was the error in there when they fire on the Aircraft with the Phalanx? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Foeth" Subject: Re: David Vs. Goliath I do not think that Acasta Vs Scharnhorst really counts, as the DD was not the primary target. The DD did put up a brave spectacle, by attacking the Scharnhorst with the usual British bravado, but a) Acasta was an escort for a larger force b) The hit on the Scharnhorst was due to bad command: The torpedo should have been evaded with ease, but orders to do so where issued far too late. But the DD should be credited with the hit, as it resulted from a brave but futile attack, characteristic for a lot of other British actions. The Scharnhorst was badly damaged, reducing speed to 22 kts, but still a peak fighting efficiency. But it does show what a small ship with a daring and agressive captain can do, just as the Glowworm encounter: Damaging large ships against all odds. Darth Foether -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "Foeth" Subject: Re: Favorite Naval Books some higly recommended books, though not fictional: "Jutland, the german perspective", VE Tarrant (Everything he writes is worth reading, BTW) "Graf Spee's raiders" Keith Yates "War at Sea" Nathan Miller Absolute disaster, do *not* read, burn on sight: "The battle of the Leyte Gulf", Thomas J Cutler Evert-Jan Foeth -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: WVeigele@aol.com Subject: Naval Books In response to Mike Leonard's call for good naval books I suggest a little known book by a famous author. It is "Path of the Storm" by Douglas Reeman. It involves Cinese actions in the South China Sea after WWII. And the ship involved is a World War II PC Patrol Craft. It is authentic, describes the ship accurately, and is an exciting read. Information on PCs can be found at: http://members.aol.com/wveigele/pcraft/pcraft.htm and from Bill Gruner at Pacific Front Hobbies. Bill Veigele -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Donna Ogilvie Subject: Re: Krivack II colors Dear Shane: Unfortunately the answer to your question is not simple. the colors of Soviet ships changed over time and with fleet. In many cases it is ship specific. In general for the Pacific fleet from 1982-84 (1982 Sea of Ososk,I was Main Propulsion Assistant USS Stein (FF-1065) 1984 off of Pertopovlosk, as 1st Lt./Assistant Operations Officer USS Texas (CGN-39)the Krivicks that I saw were in the following scheem. Hull slightly lighter than USN haze gray, decks orange Red (Rust). The area around the SA-N-4 launchers were a medium green. note the hatches for the launchers were the hull light gray. There ae some good black and white photos in Combat fleets of the World by USNI. SEAPHOTO out of Japan springs to mind and they have a web site. They don't currently have a Krivack however they do have Good color photos of Soviet warships. I've seen photos of different deck colors and a darker hull color. Wife just returned from business trip to Tokyo, Zurich, and Copenhagen and is requesting attention. I also have duty this weekend. If you can provide the fleet and time period I can be a lot more specific. Also if you can wait till monday I can provide some good references. Greg Ogilvie Aliso Viejo,Ca. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: jmaine@golden.net Subject: Favourite Naval Books I just had to throw in my two-cents worth on "favourite naval books". In my collection there is one that tops the list: The Tirpitz and the Battle for the North Atlantic, by David Woodward (Berkely Books, 1953). Of course this account, which focusses upon the exploits and final defeat of the German surface fleet, is very dated now but it is very well-written. Having been produced so soon after the war, it still conveys the excitement and immediacy of the conflict (lots of "us" and "our" versus "them" and "the enemy")and all the heroism and sacrifice involved. Woodward himself was a journalist and writer attached to the Allied forces in Europe as a war correspondent. He tells of the time when the Kriegsmarine tried to surrender itself to him (!). He was standing outside British headquarters in Copenhagen in May 1945 when he was approached by "a battered Volkswagen with a big white flag". The car contained German naval officers who, through an interpreter, announced they now wished to surrender the German fleet (Prinz Eugen, Nurnburg and some DD's lying in the harbour). Woodward didn't know what to say, but another person quickly ushered the German party upstairs to the offices of the British Admiral. On a personal note, this was also the first book about the naval war in WW II that I ever read and its readable style (plus newsprint photos of the big ships involved) got me hooked on warship modelling. Second favourite book? - Ludovic Kennedy's Pursuit, The Sinking of the Bismarck (Collins, 1974), for my money *the* best narrative account of that famous episode. John Maine -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "Jeffrey Roberts" Subject: Book Lists and David vs Goliath Thanks to Paul Jacobs for the suggested reading material regarding the early days of the Pacific War. I have the Morison series (which I bought one volume at a time as a teenager) and Van Oosten's excellent book on the Java Sea battle but most of the other titles are new to me. The Bywater book sounds especially interesting. Another interesting item on the early days of the Pacific war, though it overstates Allied successes, is Cdr. A Kroese's Dutch Navy At War which was first published in 1945. Cdr. Kroese was CO of the Dutch destroyer Kortenaer during the battle of the Java Sea. It is with Van Oosten's Battle of the Java Sea about the only book on the war from the Dutch perspective that is in written in English. The Kortenaer or one of the other "Admiral" class destroyers (broadly based upon on the British destroyer Ambuscade) is another ship high on my list of future modeling subjects. Though the Dutch destroyers were basically standard Yarrow-designed destroyers (4 12cm guns and 2 banks of TT) they also shipped a Fokker CVIIW seaplane (but no catapult) to facilitate patrol of the vast seaways of the Dutch East Indies. The aircraft was carried on a platform over the aft bank of TTs and handled by a derrick attached to the mainmast. (Psst...Hey Caroline...if WEM produced an A class destroyer as Yunchi Hsaio suggested, it would be an excellent basis for my hoped for Kortenaer!) As another David vs. Goliath of sorts how about the four Allied destroyers (The British Maori, Sikh and Legion and the Dutch Isaac Sweers) that intercepted the Italian cruisers Da Barbiano and Di Giussano off Cape Bon in Dec 1941? The cruisers were running supplies to North Africa when intercepted and were sunk in short order by the Allied units which suffered no damage themselves. And one final David, the Italian sub Evangelista Torricelli which engaged (with gunfire no less!) the British destroyers Kandahar, Khartoum and Kingston in the Red Sea in June 1940. Before the sub was sunk, she so damaged the Khartoum that the ship became a total loss as a result of fires and a subsequent internal explosion. Jeff Roberts -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "Jens H. Brandal" Subject: Heller instructions and...what do you use them for? Regarding the missing Heller instructions, you could also try writing to Heller asking for a copy. Ten, fifteen years ago, I received a Prinz Eugen for free - due to lack of instructions - and I wrote Heller asking for a set of instructions. By that time, it had probably been off the market for a long time as I'dnever seen the kit before. The instructions arrived after a few weeks. And now for something completely different. I cannot fail to notice the extensive range of WEM Airstrike 700 aircraft, and for some reason, there are several aircraft that have never set their wheels on aircraft carriers - like the H.P. Halifax, Fw200 Condor, and B-36. Obviously, WEM recognises a market for these things, and I'm not critisising them for filling it. What makes me wonder though is; what do you use these aircraft for? Surely, they are too small for static models on their own...or are they? Puzzledly yours, Jens -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: Tim Stoneman Subject: Re: David & Goliath A couple of points: ONSLOW was in the "Home Fleet Destroyer" scheme when she returned to Scapa Flow from the Barents Sea action (Photo in "Destroyers at War"). Similar to the picture of OPPORTUNE on the Tamiya box, this was basically white with a medium or dark grey lower hull up to main deck level from transom to bridge, with grey or light blue trapezoid-shaped panels on the hull forward, the bridge and funnel. Patterns and colours varied somewhat - in this case a mid grey hull up to the main deck from level with the bridge aft, dark grey triangle on the aft part of the funnel, a dark grey triangle (point down) on the top half of the bridge, dark grey "A" and "B" guns, a dark grey patch on hull and fwd shelter deck for'd of the bridge, dark grey pompom and pompom deck, mid grey torpedo tubes and either mid grey or light blue searchlight deck, "X" and "Y" guns, 4" and wedge-shaped section of the after superstructure. For more details of modifications to Tamiya's kit, the NAVIS website ran a series of articles a few months back. As well as ACASTA, ARDENT was present as part of GLORIOUS' escort when the latter (and both the former!) were sunk by the Kreigsmarine battlecruisers. Tim Stoneman -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: "Jeff Herne" Subject: A lesson in USN Colors Ok, it's time for a lesson in USN Camo practices.... Q: My question is: what camo colors were worn by USN vessels during the Guadalcanal fighting in late 1942? A: Fletcher (Nicholas, Lavallette) were wearing 5-H Haze Gray, 5-O Ocean Gray(revised), and 5-N Navy Blue. By the time these ships arrived on station in September-October 1942, the purple blues had been the designated the official colors in SHIPS-2, which had been updated in June. While the color of 5-O had been changed in June '42, 5-H was added as a new color and remained the same until the official release of #27 5-H Haze Gray (a neutral) in 1945. Thus, none of the Fletchers would have carried the older (Sept. '41) 5-O Ocean Gray at the time of Guadalcanal. Q: I gather the predominate measure was 12 Modified, but I am not sure if the grays were the neutral grays called for (I think) by SHIPS-2, January 1941 and again (I again think) by SHIPS-2, June 1942. A: The grays of January 1941 Ships-2 are not neutrals. Grays 5-D, 5-L were removed from service with the release of Ships-2 September '41, which called for the replacement of the grays with purple blues. 5-H was added, and 5-O was changed to a new shade. Q: I assume the blue-grays of SHIPS-2, March, 1943, were not in use six months previously. A: They were. The changes to SHIPS-2 March '43 involved the addition of new colors to the June '42 SHIPS-2. 5-O Ocean Gray and 5-H Haze Gray remained unchanged. Comment: However, the sources I've read don't seem to distinguish between "gray" 5-H and 5-O and "blue" 5-H and 5-O when discussing the period, and at least one source (Herne's Warship Perspective piece on Fletcher, et al)seems to use the same colors for all camo schemes regardless of year (it may just be the printing process.)** A: By the time Fletchers began to appear in combat zones, ALL ships of the class were wearing June '42 Ships-2 purple blues. Thus, you will see no reference to any colors earlier than June '42 SHIPS-2 colors in my book. It has nothing to do with the printing process, in fact, the color chips in my book are Pantone matches to 1929 Munsell codes for these colors, and match up quite well to Snyder & Short's USN color chips. Q: Logically, Fletcher and Atlanta (my projects)should be clad in neutral grays, not blue grays. Were they? ** A: They were not. Since they were newer ships, they would have carried the purple-blues of June '42 SHIPS-2, namely 5-H, 5-O (revised) and 5-N. *It is possible that some of the older ships at Guadalcanal may have still been wearing the Sept. '41 SHIPS-2 colors, but then again, we're not talking about them, are we? In my conversations with Alan Raven, Glenn Arnold, and Randy Short, all believe that Atlanta and Juneau were not wearing 5-S Sea Blue, but in fact, 5-N Navy Blue on their hulls. We must remember that early 5-N had a tendency to fade rapidly, causing many to believe that 5-N was actually 5-S. The reflectance of faded 5-N is very similar to 5-S. Although we cannot pin down an actual date, it is widely believed that Altanta's hull was painted out shortly after Midway, thus, from June 1942 to her loss in November, she would have wore a 5-N that was prone to rapid fading, especially in the South Pacific. At the time of their loss, Atlanta and Juneau would have been wearing a Ms 12 Revised pattern, with 5-N Navy Blue on the hull, 5-O Ocean Gray and 5-H Haze gray upper works in a dapple pattern. It is also believed that Juneau may have been wearing a false bow wave of 5-H. That has yet to be confirmed, but I am sure Glenn Arnold's upcoming Warship Perspectives book on the Atlanta Class will shed some light on the matter. Q: Another related question. I believe Missouri wore Measure 22 in Tokyo Bay. Were the colors 1943 blue-grays, or 1944 neutral grays? A: The neutral grays were used experimentally on ships in late 1944. They did not appear on operational ships in forward areas until early-mid 1945. Many ships carried the purple-blues right up to the end. Missouri, to the best of my knowledge, wore the 1945 neutral grays into Tokyo Bay. Since she was the surrender ceremony ship, it is quite obvious she would have been immaculate for the dignitaries, which means the newest colors available at the time. Q: Another. What colors did Hornet wear on the Tokyo raid in early '42? A: She would have been wearing Ms12 Revised (dapple only on the hull, not on the island), and she would have used Sept. '41 Ships-2 colors, consisting of 5-O Ocean Gray (revised), and 5-H Haze Gray, with 251 Deck Stain, which is a Red Mahogany. The hull colors are from the Purple-blue range. Hornet, to the best of my knowledge, only received 1 paint job in her career before her loss. I strongly recommend ordering the Floating Drydock's Camo 1 & 2 books. They provide a wealth of information regarding USN practices during WWII. Warship (http://warship.simplenet.com) also has a good deal of USN info, including articles and color charts for both USN and RN, including color chips. Insofar as my book is concerned, the color plates including the chips, are correct. Any objections, color-pattern police?? ;-) Jeff Herne -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: "David & Alicja Lombard" Subject: Re: colours? >> My question is: what camo colors were worn by USN vessels during the Guadalcanal fighting in late 1942? I gather the predominate measure was 12 Modified, but I am not sure if the grays were the neutral grays called for (I think) by SHIPS-2, January 1941 and again (I again think) by SHIPS-2, June 1942. I assume the blue-grays of SHIPS-2, March, 1943, were not in use six months previously. However, the sources I've read don't seem to distinguish between "gray" 5-H and 5-O and "blue" 5-H and 5-O when discussing the period, and at least one source (Herne's Warship Perspective piece on Fletcher, et al) seems to use the same colors for all camo schemes regardless of year (it may just be the printing process.) Logically, Fletcher and Atlanta (my projects) should be clad in neutral grays, not blue grays. Were they? << According the "The Painter's Guide to World War Two Naval Camouflage" by Patrick Hreachmack, Ms 12 used Sea Blue (5-S), Ocean Gray (5-O), and Haze Gray (5-H). >> Another related question. I believe Missouri wore Measure 22 in Tokyo Bay. Were the colors 1943 blue-grays, or 1944 neutral grays? << Same source, Ms 22 used Navy Blue (5-N), Haze Gray (5-H), and Deck Blue (20-B) . Having quoted that book, how accurate is it? The author states the Floquil colors are dead on, but I've read otherwise. Would this book plus the recently mentioned color chips be a good general reference? I'm just starting to learn about camo patterns. Also on the subject of colors, the same book states Polish ships were a "gray-green". Anybody know what this color looked like? Dark? Light? I would guess fairly light. Of course, this means my ORP GROM ('38 fit) is completely wrong! David Lombard Rossmoor, Orange County, California -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Caroline Carter" Subject: TRADE PSMs are here!! Hi Guys, The sweating and anticipation is almost over.. our PSM Issue 18 arrived here today, so we will be furiously packing them up to everyone with a set of WEM price lists for all, over this weekend... thanks Dan! For those of you who don't know, WEM handle worldwide subscriptions to the magazine at the following rate for 4 copies=1 year: U.K. 18.00 Pounds EUROPE: 20.00 Pounds REST OF THE WORLD: 22.00 Pounds Sent by Airmail We can take VISA, AMEX, Mastrercard, SOLO, SWITCH and Eurocard for payment.. a full set of WEM price lists is sent out with every subscription to help you keep up-to-date with what we've got in the pipeline for you. We also stock every back issue: 94 Issue One through Issue 17 are here ready to ship now at 4.50 per issue Cheers Caroline Carter http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/avanue/xdt22 http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: 1/35 Close In Weapon System On The Way This is Flagship Models first kit! It will be a 1/35 scale model of the Close In Weapon System used on all US Navy warships. For those of you who don't know what this is, it's the radar controlled gatling gun with the white dome found on all US Navy warships. It is designed to represent the latest design of the system (with the barrel bracing to allow a higher rate of fire). The kit stands about 8" high and is very highly detailed. The kit is multimedia with resin, metal and photo-etch parts. The parts are at the caster now and the photo etch is on the way. Once I get the test shots I'll put one together and post it on my web site. I'm hoping the final cost of the kit will be between $50.00 and $60.00. No other company in the world produces anything like this in diorama scale. No doubt about it, this is a really cool looking addition to anyone's naval collection. If you're interested this kit, send me email address and I'll notify you when I have them in hand. When I know for sure what the cost will be, I'll take advance orders at a discount. Stay tuned. Rusty White Flagship Models inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume