Subject SMML15/11/98VOL364 Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 10:39:36 +1100 (EST) shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: 1:700 aircraft 2: Re: Good Books 3: Re: KM Achillies Heel 4: KM Fleet Torpedo Boats 5: FAQs a suggestion 6: Re: 1/700 Aircraft and IPMS judging categories 7: Re: USS Massachusetts 8: Archive features 9: Re: USS MASSACHUSETTS 10: Re: USS LEXINGTON (CV-2) 11: Re: German sterns 12: Re: BISMARCK Turret Colors 13: Re: CV conv to Enterprise 14: Re: McKellar 15: Thanks for the help 16: Battle of Sunda St. 17: Re: USS Lexington CV2 18: Re: USS Mass Props 19: CVE 20: speaking of which... 21: Small weapons for Queen Mary 22: Sailing Ships 23: Re: Brass wire for rigging, aerials etc. 24: German Ships' Sterns 25: Heller Richelieu 1/400: It is back! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: What do y'all think? 2: 1/700 DOCKYARD DIORAMAS...new stuff from WEM 3: 1/700 HMS Buttercup kit.. out now!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: DKrakow105@aol.com Subject: 1:700 aircraft Hi The recent discussion of 1.350 and 700 scale aircraft leads me to wonder what methods people use to simulate clear canopies and canopy frames. For floatplanes, I have carved, sanded and polished bits of clear plastic sprue. This is fine for the occasional floatplane, but I would not want to provide a deckfull of aircraft carrier airplanes with clear canopies using this method. Also, it occurred to me that molding the entire aircraft in clear plastic would make clear canopies just a matter of masking them off while painting. Are there any manufacturers doing this? Cheers David Krakow Frankfurt Germany -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: DKrakow105@aol.com Subject: Re: Good Books As for good books, I really enjoyed "The Fleet that had to Die" about the Russians at Tsu-Shima. I think it was written by Richard Hough, who also wrote a nice book called "The Long Pursuit" about the WWI Battle of the Falklands. They are written like novels, very easy to read and accurate as far as I can tell. Cheers Dave -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: DKrakow105@aol.com Subject: Re: KM Achillies Heel >> Was this an inherent weakness of German ship designers of that time? << A long protruding stern was a trademark of larger ships of the KM. It was a definate design flaw. In my opinion, however, this feature adds much to the eye-catching appeal of German ships of that era. In studying German shipbuilding practice it becomes obvious that the designers put much value on the physical appearance of their ships, probably for propaganda and morale purposes. Where British ships were stout and solid gun platforms, German ships were sleek with low sides, and rakish superstructures. Perhaps the weak stern was somehow the result of a deliberate compromise between battle/seaworthyness and optical appeal? Dave -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: DKrakow105@aol.com Subject: KM Fleet Torpedo Boats Hi Has anyone got information on photos at the US National Archives taken of German "Flottentorpedoboote" which were taken to the USA for examination by the USN in 1945? I need negative numbers for a colleague here. He says the boats in question are T-22 through 25, but I cannot vouch for the accuracy of this info. Thanks Dave -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Les Pickstock (Les Pickstock) Subject: FAQs a suggestion It would perhaps help the beginners and those not familiar with the USN Measures system to have a example of various ships each displaying a Measure. This would require cross-indexing with the picture gallery but it would be a great help if folks could see what was meant by Measure12 etc,etc. Just a thought! Les Pickstock -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "Caroline Carter" Subject: Re: 1/700 Aircraft and IPMS judging categories I would just like to comment on what I've been reading here just recently.. first, I'm quite fascinated to hear about the pains that Jim Gordon, John "100 Proof" Snyder, and the likes go to to produce such tiny but gorgeous models... if anyone would like to send us a nice quality pic or 2 of a WEM 1/700 aircraft build, (E-Mail scan or photo). For those that are used, I will send the person a free bag of aircraft (their choice as to type) and credit them with the build on our web pages, for their efforts, for each subject built. Get those close-up lenses out lads! Also, it is very refreshing to hear Rusty talk about US IPMS judging... in the U.K. IPMS (International Plane Modellers Soceity) it takes an age of effort to get new categories (non-aircraft, that is!) set up... we pushed last year for a scratchbuilt ships section (at the moment scratchbuilt ships have to compete in the miscellaneous scractchbuilt categories, which puts a LOT of very talented builders off entering). A scratchbuilt bungalow took Gold last year.... even so, almost 1/2 the entries in this category were ships! This year, well OVER half the entries in Misc/Scratchbuilt were ships... it seems that some of us are going to have to push pretty hard at the AGM for a long-overdue creation of a new category.. Graham Walker do you hear me!... A new category for, say, 1/200 and smaller aircraft would be a wonderful idea for the U.K. (and probably easier to get approval for this than e.g. a separate submarine category...) Cheers Caroline Carter -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Sheridan, John" Subject: Re: USS Massachusetts >> 1) On the middle front of the Bulbous nose, there is a v shaped protrusion shaped like this - "<" with the bow to the left and stern to the right. You could fit your hand thru it. What is this? << Hmmmm, I have no idea what this is. >> 2) There a - I think I've got the term right - 4 stabalizers on the ship each about 25 orso feet long. Is this the right term? and does the kit have these? << Those are, I believe, the Bilge Keels. And yes, the BWN kit does have these. John Sheridan @ Microscale Decals http://www.microscale.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Jeff Herne" Subject: Archive features Hi gang, I will be adding a ZIP option for each 100 files. Let me get the individual issues up... Jeff -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: USS MASSACHUSETTS The device on the bow is a fitting through which the paravane chains were passed, holding the chains in place when the paravanes were streamed (and before anyone asks what are paravanes, we had that discussion very recently, so look at the archives). The "stabilizers" are commonly called bilge keels. I don't know if they're on the model since I bought the waterline version. As to paint, while I'd love to see her in Ms.12, from a historic preservation standpoint that would be inaccurate and inappropriate, since she never work that scheme while in her present rig after the 1944 alterations. So Ms.22 it should be. Now, if they need accurate paint colors.... John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys Sacramento, Calif. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: USS LEXINGTON (CV-2) When LEX landed her 8" gun mounts in 1942, it was planned that she would receive twin 5"/38 mounts in their place on a one-for-one basis, as was the case with SARA. Unfortunately, they were not available at the moment and since she was needed back in the fight ASAP, she was fitted with quad 1.1" mounts as an interim measure. I've never researched their precise location, so can't say if they were placed where the 8" mounts had been. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys Sacramento, Calif. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: German sterns PRINZ EUGEN lost hers to a British submarine torpedo. While we're on the subject of ships losing appendages, US heavy cruisers seemed to have a similar weakness in the bows, several of them losing that portion of the ship to Japanese torpedos or to typhoons. Of course, the Type 93 torpedo was a rather potent weapon, as many allied warships--including my uncle's, DD SELFRIDGE--found. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys Sacramento, Calif. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: BISMARCK Turret Colors Michael: The short answer to your question is that, a) yes, German ships did use different colors on their turret tops on different operations, for air identification purposes; b) BISMARCK's were apparently painted gray at the time of her sortie and at the time of her action with HOOD/PoW, but were c) painted bright yellow at the time of her sinking. If you want more details, contact me off-list or take a peek at the SMML archives. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys Sacramento, Calif. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Cataldo Torelli Subject: Re: CV conv to Enterprise >> There are people on this list who know better than I, but I looked into this a bit, and IIRC, Hornet and Enterprise were much closer in config to each other than Yorktown was to either, even though it IS called "Yorktown Class." I'm not sure I would want to do the reshaping required to get Enterprise from Yorktown on a kit that expensive! The easily available Squadron book on American Carriers in Action Pt.1 has side views of the class, for a starting point, to at least show you how different the Yorky was. Beyond that, I'd look into plan sets from Floating Drydock. << Hi Ken and all, I think Enterprise before the mid'43 refit was very similar in the basic things with Yorktown in Midway era. Maybe the AA set was different. I will look at my references and tell you something more accurate. Best wishes, Cataldo Torelli Madrid, Spain -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: ALROSS2@aol.com Subject: Re: McKellar The projection you described on the stem of the MASSACHUSETTS is probably the lower attachment point for the paravane chains. Al Ross -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Allan Salas Subject: Thanks for the help Thanks for the feedback on my inquiries on the USCG Itasca. I got book references and the coast guard museum in Washington was also helpful. I have another question. Does anyone know of a manufacture of weapons and fittings for 1/350 scale warships? I was thinking in terms of an equivalent to Skywave's efforts in the 1/700 field. I know that there are several good manufacturers of photoetch parts (radars, railing and the like). What I was thinking about are secondary weapons, boats, deck hardware, aircraft, etc. Allan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Joseph Boeke Subject: Battle of Sunda St. From the keyboard of "Arjun Sarup" : >> I'd imagine a torpedo hit has quite a different effect to gunfire, so hopefully someone can shed a little light on what really happened to that Japanese minesweeper and transports. There ought to have been some survivors off the Japanese ships, so maybe a Japanese account exists somewhere. << Arjun, As you surmise, there is a lot of contradictory "statements" concerning the final battle of the USS Houston and HMAS Perth. In epilogue of W.G. Winslow's (a USS Houston survivor) book _The Ghost that Died at Sunda Straight_ (USNIP 1984) there is a statement that sums things up nicely as far as I am concerned... "There probably will always remain unanswered questions concerning the extent of Japanese losses in the Battle of Sunda Straight... no matter how it was inflicted, whatever battle damage occurred to Japanese ships must be attributed to the gallant action of the cruisers USS Houston and HMAS Perth." Also, in the book, Winslow details statements by Houston and Perth survivors that indicate Japanese losses were much heavier than "officially" admitted to by the IJN. The general conclusion is that because these ships were conducting landing operations and close into shore, many of the ships damaged and/or beached were salvaged -- and thus a true accounting may never be known. Winslow also states that the IJN fired 87 torpedoes at the Houston and Perth. At most, 10 found their marks, so that left 77 torpedoes in the water (plus 4 fired from the Perth). During most of the battle, the Perth and Houston were between the landing force, and the covering force, so some (many?) of the torpedoes had an opportunity to wreak havoc in the landing area. The Japanese also never admitted to losing a seaplane carrier Ryujo Maru, which was General Imamura's flagship which was detailed in the Nippon Times (an English language newspaper published in japan during the war). The ship was (according to Imamura's account the ship was sunk by torpedoes from from the Houston (which wasn't possible). It is unlikely they came from Perth, so that leaves IJN long lances as the likely tools. Perhaps the "official" Japanese figures only include ships sunk by enemy gunfire? Joe -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: Jowfx@webtv.net (John Fox) Subject: Re: USS Lexington CV2 From the photos I have of the Coral Sea battle, she doesn't have the 5" mounts. I can't tell if she had any other AA mounts in those positions. John -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: McKellar Subject: Re: USS Mass Props >> the lower hull on the BWN USS Massachusetts is correct below the waterline. It is a really interesting design for a hull. Note that the ship has 5 blade props on the outside skegs and 4 blade props on the inboard shafts. << Actually, it ought to be 5 blades onthe outside and 3 blades onthe inside Mark -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: CCramMiG@aol.com Subject: CVE I really love modeling US Navy ships with US Army Air Corp planes on the deck. That's why my Hornet has B-25 on board, and my Ranger will have P-40s. I saw an episode of the old Discovery Carriers TV series showing a Casablanca class escort carrier launching rasorback P-47 during the invasion of Saipan. The ship number was clearly visible on deck, but I don't remember which CVE it was. My son recorded an episode of Seaquest DSV over my copy of the Discovery program, so I haven't been able to find the ship number again myself. All I know is that it was a Casablanca class CVE and the first digit of the deck number was 6 so the ship would have to be from CVE 60 - 69. Can anyone there help me figure out which CVE this was, I would really like to model this subject. Thank you for your help. Charles Cram -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Sue & Ben Subject: speaking of which... Talking about things that should go in the FAQ, Stanley Suarez mentionned: >> *Floater net baskets << This reminded me, I have a half decent picture of one of those from my set of pictures of the USS North Caroliona. Cheers Ben Montreal, Canada -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: "Björn Bäcklund" Subject: Small weapons for Queen Mary Hello. Could anyone tell me if there is weapons in model to build RMS. Queen Mary as a troop carrier. I was thinking of buying the Revell kit and I suppose that I could use 1:600 scale parts. Bjorn Backlund Stockholm, Sweden -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: Minadmiral@aol.com Subject: Sailing Ships Hi; Just got on SMML recently, getting ideas to do my wargame models. I don`t do the intricate detailing that goes on static models,it would break off. My question is,is there a similar list for sailing ship models? Wooden or plastic.Where would I find it? Thanks Chuck -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: "Mr J Owen" Subject: Re: Brass wire for rigging, aerials etc. I have found that for rigging and aerials on 1:700 scale ships and for some spars on 1:1200 scale ships the best thing to use is fibre optic telephone cable. I was given a 12 inch piece of this multi cored cable by a fellow modeller who is also a telephone engineer. So far it has lasted about six years and is only just beginning to run out. Individual strands are coated with different colours which can save painting and consequent thickening. I have found that larger diameters are around in decorative lanterns. Fibre optic is rigid enough to represent aerials and does not bend if knocked accidentally. The only problem I have found is is that it cannot be tapered if it is used to represent small spars or ensign staffs. Wherever possible I drill out a hole for one end of the fibre to sit in, fixing it with superglue. It is advisable to use an over length piece, trimming it when it is in place with a very fine pair of end cutters. The last ship I made, the White Ensign Models Flower Class Corvette is rigged entirely with fibre optic strands with the exception of the mast which was soldered out of brass. I am currently working on Tom's Models Liberty Ship and am using it for derrick rigging after making the derricks from brass. I have also used it with some success on WEM's aircraft in 1:700 scale; for example for gun barrels and aerials on their Sunderland flying boat. It is also useful for the gun barrels of small weapons in 700 and 1200 scales. I hope that this is of use. Jim Owen. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: John Clements Subject: German Ships' Sterns To follow the thread, I think that German ships were necessarily different from others in the design of their sterns. All major German ships, including both the Prinz Eugen and the Lutzow, the two that were torpedoed en route to/from Norway, had central propeller shafts. I think I am right in believing that most other nationalities ships had two or four shafts, not three. Not being an engineer, I don't know whether this would have introduced an inherent weakness as the keel must be interrupted at that point, the remainder of the stern overhanging the propeller area. It is probably more to the point that the torpedoes hit both ships in the stern! They were certainly not the only nationality whose ships lost either extremity in such circumstances. John Clements -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: "Jean-Paul Binot" Subject: Heller Richelieu 1/400: It is back! Hi all, It seems that Heller has re-released the Richelieu. I have seen no announcement of it, but it is definitely back. I just bought one. The box art is new too, as is the design of the box. As with all recent re-releases from Heller, the kit is exactly as it was fifteen years ago, i.e. very good, but not perfect. In particular, light AA guns are a bit heavy by modern standards, and should be replaced by photoetched parts. However, finding 1/400 versions of 20 and 40 mm guns would be a challenge. It is certainely one of the most complex kits from the Heller range, and one of my favourites. The box art depicts Richelieu in its post-war configuration, but the kit itself seems to depict Richelieu as it was after its modernisation in the US in 1943. I am checking it against the remarkable book that has been published recently in France by Marines Editions. The reference # for Richelieu is 81086. Now let's hope that Heller re-release Jean Bart, Strasbourg and Dunkerque, and everything will be just fine... (Let them throw in the Hood as well...) Jean-Paul Binot -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Caroline Carter" Subject: What do y'all think? To coincide with the release of the "SMMLlie-inspired" first of the FLIGHTDECK 400 AND FLIGHTDECK 500 subjects as follows, for next week (prices in pounds sterling) FLIGHTDECK 500 1/500 Scale WEM FD501 1/500 Dauntless (x2) 5.08 WEM FD502 1/500 Avenger (x2) 5.08 WEM FD503 1/500 Wildcat (x2) 5.08 WEM FD504 1/500 Devastator (x2) 5.08 WEM FD505 1/500 Hellcat (x2) 5.08 FLIGHTDECK 400 1/400 Scale WEM FD 401 1/400 GRUMMAN S2F3 Tracker ASW Hunter-Killer aircraft (x2) 5.08 WEM FD 402 1/400 GRUMMAN E1-B Tracer (x2) 5.08 WEM FD 403 1/400 Douglas EA-3B Skywarrior (x2) 5.08 WEM FD 404 1/400 Boeing KC 135 (x1) 7.62 We are umming and ahing about scaling up our "Fixed Wing Aircraft Parts" fret to 1/450 Scale, giving us a 1/400-1/500 scale set... as one set of phototooling is 160.00 pounds for this relief etched set, we would prefer to go the latter route, and reckon on tiny parts such as these, the scale difference would be acceptable...i.e. 10-12%... What do you think.. at the moment, as far as we are aware, there is nothing like this available for the modeller. The set conatins the following (obviouusly there are parts here that can be modified for other subjects.). includes 2 blade props, 3 blade props, 4 blade props, 5- blade props,"stick" undercarriage, jet undercarriages, jet nosewheels, strip undercarriage doors, rectangular undercarriage doors, single arrestor hooks, V type arrestor hooks, Scarff rings, Single Vickers K guns, large spatted undercarriage, Swordfish type undercarriage legs,Albacore undercarriage legs, Swordfish float struts, heavy bomber undercarriage twin M.G. barrels (for bomber turrets), quad M.G. barrels (British rear turrets), quad underwing rocket rails, Sunderland wingtip struts, spatted Lysander type undercarriage struts,"Z" type cabane struts, "Z" type interplane struts... the price? In 1/400 this would be about 7 inches x 4 inches and would, by neccessity, be thicker than the 3 thou we use for the 1/600-1/700 Scale set... probably 4 or 5 thou, and around 10.00 pounds post free... If interested parties would like to E-Mail us we would be grateful, to enable us to ascertain interest. A scan of the etched brass is available on the website. Regards Caroline Carter http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/avenue/xdt22/ http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Caroline Carter" Subject: 1/700 DOCKYARD DIORAMAS...new stuff from WEM Hi Guys! I guess a few of you simply saw this heading and zapped straight down to the bottom, as fast as that little mouse could take you!! Once again, we have listened to you all on SMML re. dockyard furniture.. I hope you won't be disappointed. As of today, we have the following master patterns underway for White Ensign Models by Brian Fawcett of MDC. Introducing the **DOCKYARD MATEYS" range! WEM DM 7001 1/700 Saddletank loco (large enough to pull freight, small enough to shunt) WEM DM 7002 1/700 Small Box Van WEM DM 7003 1/700 Large Box Van WEM DM 7004 1/700 Large Flatbed with optional sheeted load that can be removed if not required WEM DM 7005 1/700 Guards van and the following vehicles... WEM DM 7006 1/700 Bedford OYD 3-Ton GS Truck WEM DM 7007 1/700 Bedford OXC 30cwt Box Van Quantities and prices to be announced... should be along the lines of the PROFESSIONAL range, i.e. pretty cheap! Taking orders now! Cheers Caroline Carter White Ensign Models http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Caroline Carter" Subject: 1/700 HMS Buttercup kit.. out now!! Hi Guys, Well, yet another week trying to catch up on a week's worth of SMMLlie postings.... and another weekend finishing off the Buttercup instructions. Thanks to John Lambert for his assistance.. as John rightly points out, every F****r is different from the next one.. Dave and I have been furiously assembling the instructions and camou for the ship as in 1942 (3-colour Western Approaches scheme). Actually we guessed at the colour of the acoustic hammer.... grey! Any other evidence welcomed. Did you know that the record for one of those things triggering off a mine was 5 miles.. now that would be one hell of a diorama in 1/700 Scale!! Anyhow, even the focsle break is different to Blubell.. the only bit that is the same is the first 5mm of the "Sharp End"... The kit, though I say it myself, is simply cute and yummy and of course comes with full photoetch.. and you don't have to worry about a pennant number coz she doesn't wear one! Price is a very reasonable 15.38 pounds (around $24.00) shipped post free worldwide.. Pacific Front will also be carrying them soon if you prefer to deal with Bill, and NNT and Modell Center of Germany will also be stocking these. We do take all credit cards of course.. Cheers from The SMMLlie Cottage Caroline and Dave Carter White Ensign Models, http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume