Subject SMML20/11/98VOL369 Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 17:31:12 +1100 (EST) shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Railway scales 2: Re: Skulski 3: N Scale 4: Flight Deck Colours 5: Re: Russian Publications 6: Re: N-gauge 7: Re: Dealings with WEM: 3 Cheers 8: Re: N scale 9: Sailing Ship List 10: Re: Anchor Chains 11: Re: Pennsylvania 12: (N Scale) 13: Re: German BB/BC/CA sterns 14: Revell Midway Class FDR 15: HMS Invincible... 16: USS Pennsylvania 17: Re: Hasegawa ESSEX 18: Re: O'BANNON again 19: Re: IJN Linoleum 20: Re: FSM article 21: Aircraft E-mail lists 22: Re: Movies 23: Re: 1/700 Aircraft Possibilities 24: Anchor on Perry Class Frigate 25: Re: The V in CV -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Les Pickstock (Les Pickstock) Subject: Re: Railway scales Here in the UK 'N' and 'OO' are the most popular scales 'OO' is generally perceived as 1/72nd or 4mm to the foot. 'N' is half 'OO' 1/44th or 2mm to the foot. The standard of 'OO' as 1/72nd was established years ago and is the main reason that model aeroplanes tended to be in this scale. Les Pickstock -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: DKrakow105@aol.com Subject: Re: Skulski Concerning how to get in touch with Jan Skulski, he lives in Krakow Poland. Speaks limited English. Unfortunately I dont have his complete address with me. Skulski, incidentally, is one of the finest small scale ship modellers in the world. His 1:1000 models need to be seen to be believed. While we are on the clear canopy thread, I should mention he makes them out of celluloid into which he pushes a pre-shaped piece of heated wire, then slices them out with a razor blade. The canopy frames are pre, etched into the film. Says about 1 in 10 attempts works. Cheers David Krakow -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Morley, James (London)" Subject: N Scale >> Actually, N scale is 1/160th scale. The rest of the raiload scales are: HO = 1/87 N = 1/160 O = 1/48 Z = 1/220 S= 1/64 G = 1/24 1 = 1/32 << Don't forget the British standard "OO" scale which is, I believe, 1/76th. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: DKrakow105@aol.com Subject: Flight Deck Colours >> Sorry, the flight decks of US carriers was stained mahogany pre-war. << Yep. And a great reference is the pre war movie "Dive Bomber", 1939 (?) The plot and acting are terrible, but the movie was filmed in FULL COLOR with clips of CVN .... I forgot! The mahogany flight decks are quite red, sort of the same shade that picnic benches are stained in the USA. Cheers David Krakow -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: DKrakow105@aol.com Subject: Re: Russian Publications Where can I get copies of the recent Russian photo publications on "Armored Ships" They look very nice from the review I have seen! Cheers Dave -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Kristoffer.Lindh@alcatel.fr Subject: Re: N-gauge We seem to be falling into a traditional trap: english waywardness. 'Gauge' refers to the distance between the two rails of the track of a railway. For N-gauge this is 9mm which works out to 1/160. But this is of course too easy, ENGLISH N-gauge uses a GAUGE of 9mm but a SCALE of 1/144 for the equipment. The same thing is true of the larger HO gauge of 16.5mm - but here it's less of a trap as the english railroaders use a name of their own in this case (OO gauge - scale 1/76). For the isolated continent use Paul's list. So buy N figures, but use Preiser and Merten only for short people ! We still have a gauge problem though: the new D&C RR ('the White Ensign route') - english, 1/700 scale, but what gauge Caroline? Kristoffer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Katz, Gene S" Subject: Re: Dealings with WEM: 3 Cheers Just a quick note that HMS Royal Sovereign and HMS Suffolk have entered harbor at long last, escorted by HMS Bluebell (dwg.). Unfortunately, I announce with regret that one of HM ships, HMS Exeter, is overdue and sadly must be assumed lost at sea. However, mates, the good news is that the Carters were most kind and gracious and supplied some 1/600 frets of PE to assist in overhaul and refit. All shipshape and Bristol fashion. Good folks with whom to do business (no commercial interest, just a Well Done or Bravo Zulu, whichever Navy suits your fancy). She's a cat person, ergo, she must be nice. :) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: John Philip Downing Subject: Re: N scale >> HO = 1/87 N = 1/160 O = 1/48 Z = 1/220 S = 1/64 G = 1/24 1 = 1/32 << Sometimes in Europe N is indeed 1/144 (sometimes called OOO). There is also a TT scale (1/120) and popular in England is OO scale (1/76). G scale seems to vary from one manufacturer to another, and I have seen G items in 1/29, 1/25, and 1/22.5, and probably others. Hope this adds to the confusion. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: NEFFD@dteenergy.com Subject: Sailing Ship List Chuck asked SMMLers: >> ...is there a similar list for sailing ship models? Wooden or Plastic? << The list you need is the Seaways Publishing Ship Modeling List sponsored by "Ships in Scale" magazine. To subscribe to it send a message to seaways-shipmodeling-list-request@list.best.com using no subject and put just the word: subscribe in the body, nothing else. You will get a welcoming message in return a short time later and will begin getting digests of ship modeling messages following within a day or so. The list subject is old sailing ships and models of them built from any combination of materials, including wood and plastic. Don Neff Novi, MI -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Anchor Chains >> I'm trying to finish up a Gulfstream Perry-class frigate for a family member, and am puzzled by something. The kit doesn't come with an anchor; assuming the real ship has one (I assume the US Navy hasn't found a way to dispense with them), should there be one showing on the starboard side (which is where the anchor chain leads to) or is the anchor somehow stowed so it can't be seen? << This is weird. I built the old MB Models (John Fickland masters) Perry frigate and mine didn't have the anchor in it either. The ships do have anchors and go on the side the chain points to. I used a 1/350 Ticonderoga anchor. It was the same size and looked convincing. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "FERNANDO, YOHAN" Subject: Re: Pennsylvania >> Finally, you could purchase Classic Warship's Pennsylvania if you want to same time, but I guess it's more fun to take a less than quality kit and make it into something special. << The other reason for my masochistic urge (as it now seems after thinking more about the abysmal quality of both injection kits), is to save a bit of cash. The Revell kit goes for about $6, while the CW for about $60. The way I see it, that's $54 leftover to get more kits... :) Thanks to everyone for the advice. I am going to look into getting a large set of plans to go along with the FSM article. Yohan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Kindrachuk, Mark" Subject: (N Scale) N scale is, indeed, 1:160. 1:144 is TT scale, now definitely one of the less popular model railroad scales in western Europe and North America (although still quite popular, I understand, in places like the Czech Republic, Poland and the former East Germany). I don't know, offhand, if anyone manufactures TT scale figures, but it certainly seems likely. Mark Kindrachuk -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: tomkremer Subject: Re: German BB/BC/CA sterns Regarding the recent thread on possible design weakness in German ships... Prinz Eugen now rests on the atoll of Kwajalein with the intact stern partially protruding from the water, apparently it was attached well enough so that the atomic bomb didn't knock it off. This creates an opportunity for some SMMLite to conduct primary research via destructive testing... all you need are a ton or so of high explosive to simulate a torpedo hit. ;-) Best regards, Tom Kremer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: tomkremer Subject: Revell Midway Class FDR I saw yesterday at a local shop an old Revell kit which had cover art showing a 1945ish version (no angled flight deck) of the FDR, a Midway class carrier. I had not seen this kit before (or any Midway class), does anyone have any feedback as to how good it is? What scale is it and how accurate? Best regards, Tom Kremer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: roberto.paredes@cl.unisys.com Subject: HMS Invincible... Hi Guys, Few days ago, I visited Marco Polo's web site, in this, they announce the Shanghai-Dragon HMS Invincible (FALKLAND WAR 1981) release. Who it sell this product? Regards, Roberto. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "Michael C. Smith" Subject: USS Pennsylvania There was a ship model magazine in 1983 or 1988 that had a feature on a 1/720 conversion to a late-war Pennsy. If you can't locate the article, let me know and I can scan the photos and send them to you. The best reference is probably Frideman's battleships book, but you could probably get there from the photos. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "Michael C. Smith" Subject: Re: Hasegawa ESSEX I've done two "updates" of the Hasegawa kit - one of CV-16 and one of CV-14 (long hull). I followed the instructions in the Detail and Scale book on the USS Lexington (CV-16), which gives you everything you need to know to convert the kit (redo the island platforms and hangar walls). They don't absolutely suggest overlaying the flight deck with .020" sheet plastic, but I think it is critical to be able to get the right thickness for the gallery deck and to have full control of the deck detailing. I also think it's fun - I use scribed plastic approximating the tie down strips, not the planking, and varying the scribes according to the deck plans in the Raven book is really kind of fun - makes you feel like a real shipbuilder. When I did the long hull Ticonderoga I had to cut off parts of the bow and stern of the flight deck to get it to the right length - took me a lot of reseach to figure out that that's why the kit never looked right - the shortened the deck to accommodate the additional 40mm mounts. I have a lot of photos showing the modifications I did to the kit to follow the D&S book, and with the gray plastic and white sheet plastic, it's easy to see. Again, I'll be glad to scan these and e-mail them to anyone interested. You can also see how much to cut off in my book "Essex Class Carriers in action" by Squadron/Signal. I drew two top & side views showing the difference between the short hull and long hull ships and had them put it in the book in 1/700 scale to help modelers with the question of how much to cut off. I really enjoy talking about the Essex class and modeling the Hasegawa kit, so if anyone has any questions or stories or hints, please let me know. Michael Smith -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: O'BANNON again Without going to NARA to read her deck log and war diary, I have to say that it's not likely that O'BANNON's 1943 repaint into a solid-color measure was Ms.11, overall Sea Blue (5-S). The Pacific Fleet had pretty much given up on Sea Blue by late '41 due to severe fading problems, and ships in that measure quickly repainted to Ms.21, overall Navy Blue (5-N). By 1943, the likelihood of any Pacific Fleet ship still using Ms.11--much less repainting into that color --is slim to none. Read on for the rationale. From Alan Raven's excellent series on USN camo in _Plastic Ship Modeler_: "Faced with the phasing out of the Dark Gray, and with Sapphire Blue being unacceptable due to fading, the Pacific Fleet formally adopted Measure 11, Sea Blue (formerly Measure 1A) in mid-September 1941.... Fortunately, by late 1941 the new 5-N Navy Blue had become available in the Atlantic, used there in Measure 12. It was first applied to a Pacific ship in the first days of December. This was the destroyer FLUSSER which was painted overall in the new color, the scheme was named Measure 1C, later in 1942 formalized as Measure 21. "In the Atlantic, Admiral King (like Kimmel) was unhappy with Sea Blue, primarily because of fading, and by it not being dark enough. He officially ended the use of Sea Blue in early November [1941], having formally replaced by 5-N Navy Blue.... "Vessels arriving in the Pacific after mid-year [1942] had their 12R camouflage changed upon arrival in Pearl Harbor to overall 5-N (Navy Blue) Measure 21. "However, there were no stocks available of 5-N Navy Blue (as it was called) for Pacific Fleet use until several weeks into 1942. Change over to overall 5-N (known as Measure 21) took some time to accomplish, and it was not until early 1943 that the whole fleet sported the new measure. "Measure 11. Developed directly from Measure 1A. Used on a few cruisers and destroyers of the Pacific Fleet in the last weeks of 1941 and the first months of 1942. Colors: 5-S Sea Blue, 20B Deck Blue. Vertical surfaces including masts, topmasts, and yards - 5-S. Decks and horizontal surfaces - 20B. Countershading - none. "Measure 21. Developed directly from Measure 1C. Used extensively on all types of major surface warships in the Pacific during 1942, 1943, and 1944. Colors: 5-N Navy Blue, 20B Deck Blue (revised), 250N Flight Deck stain, #21 Flight Deck stain, #21 Flight Deck stain revised. Vertical surfaces up to and including masts, topmasts, and yards - 5-N. Decks and horizontal surfaces - 20B. Carrier flight decks - (1942) - 250N, (1943) #21, (1944) #21 (revised). Countershading - none. "Measure 21 (1945 revision). Modification of original Measure 21. Carried by all types of major surface combatants from the spring of 1945. Colors: #7 Navy Gray, #4 Deck Gray 20. Vertical surfaces from the boot topping up to and including masts, topmasts and yards - #7 Navy Gray. Decks and horizontal surfaces - #4 Deck Gray. Countershading - none." Very unlikely, therefore, that O'BANNON repainted from her Ms.12 modified into a color that had been effectively discontinued a year earlier. Anyone who missed Alan's excellent series on USN and RN camo should contact Dan Jones (a SMML regular) about back issues AND a subscription to PSM. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: IJN Linoleum AOBA is also known to have retained her linoleum topside to the end of the war. I suspect that the wholesale removal of linoleum was, in fact, from below decks as was pointed out yesterday. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: SantMin@aol.com Subject: Re: FSM article >> There was an article in a Fine Scale Modeler special called 'Modelling the Second World War' published in early 1996, which had an article on converting the Revell 1/720 Arizona kit to the late war Pennsylvania. The author, Jim Kloek, refers to using Floating Drydock plans but included an Alan Raven USNI plan and starboard side view in 1/720, with templates for parts of the after fire control tower and emergency cabin platform, as well as stage by stage photographs of the model under construction. I have seen copies of the publication on second hand stands at various shows form time to time - perhaps Kalmbach still has some available? << That was the second WWII special. If Kalmbach doesn't have any left, I still have several copies in stock. Bob Santos -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: BEN8800@aol.com Subject: Aircraft E-mail lists I subscribe to the Seaways Shipmodelling list, and the Plastic ship model group (SMML). Does anyone know if their is a similar E-mail group for plastic model aircraft? Ben Lankford Vienna, VA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: "Mike Leonard" Subject: Re: Movies David K wrote: >> Just got word about a movie that is in the planning stages here in Germany. It will be an action/adventure film about the SMS Emden and is scheduled for completion by 2002. Star of the movie is to be a 1:1 scale replica of the SMS Emden herself! << There was an item in one of the film magazines not long ago (Entertainment Weekly, maybe?) that said that given the success of 'Saving Private Ryan' and the upcoming rlease of other movies such as 'The Thin Red Line', there are no less than four WW2 submarine films in the planning stages in both the US and Europe. Mike Alexandria, VA, USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: "Mike Leonard" Subject: Re: 1/700 Aircraft Possibilities Check out the new issue of Fine Scale Modeler for a look at an incredible C-130 Hercules in 1/700 scale. Mike Alexandria, VA, USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: John Burch Subject: Anchor on Perry Class Frigate The O.H. PERRY class ships have a single starboard side anchor contained in a pocket. The only thing that shows externally is an unobtrusive slot at the bottom of the pocket, which could be reproduced on a 1/350 scale model with a thin strip of paint. I worked on O.H. PERRY class Combat Systems and T&E for 14 years at NAVSEA. From my copy of the booklet of General Plans for FFG 7: the anchor slot is 7 ft long, and is inclined about 20 degrees from horizontal; the hull is slightly “dished” below the pocket, with dimensions of 7 ft X 5 ft and the corners are rounded; the forward edge of the slot is 15 ft up from the waterline, and is directly below the second scupper (drain hole) aft on the starboard side bulwark. V/R J. Burch -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: James Corley Subject: Re: The V in CV >> James, (and a few others) got it right: The ORIGIN of CV was Cruiser, aViation The first few aircraft carriers were built on Cruiser hulls. << Thanks! >> As many people stated, the V is used to designate heavier than air, fixed wing aircraft and their squadrons, and H is used for helicopters. << Oddly enough, the H designation did not apply to the autogyros experimented with in the prewar years, even though these are rotarty wing aircraft. The earliest use of H I can find is the formation of HMX-1 in 1945-46...cant pin down an exact date. The HNS & HOS helos acquired in 1942 were assigned to VX-3, later going to USCG and USMC units. Similarly the HRP went to VX-3 in 1944 and was passed off to HMX-1 at some later date. Still looking JZ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume