Subject: SMML22/11/98VOL371 Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 20:24:20 +1100 (EST) shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: "Cod War" Frigate. 2: Glencoe NS Savannah 3: Airfix 600 KGV conversion to POW please help 4: Re: American Civil War Sub Movie 5: Re: CVE Flight Deck Colors 6: Re: Range Clocks 7: Re: Range Clocks 8: WEM gauge and Kirov 9: Range clocks 10: Re: Welded German Sterns 11: DKM Prinz Eugen 12: Building the Tamiya HMS King George V 1/350 13: Re: Prinz Eugen 14: Cranes 15: RIGGING FOR WW II SHIPS 16: Re: German Turret Top Colors 17: Warship Config. Dates 18: Hon Kong Hobby Shop 19: The ORIGIN of CV 20: Re: 'V' 21: Re: Perry Class Anchor 22: Re: 1/700 H.M.S. Invincible -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: CIWS model masters photos -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Les Pickstock (Les Pickstock) Subject: "Cod War" Frigate. Looking through some old Scale Model Magazine I found plans for an Icelandic gunboat. I was wondering if anyone can remember which Royal Navy "Leander" class frigate was involved in the so-called "Cod War". Les Pickstock -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: McKellar Subject: Glencoe NS Savannah >> Has anyone built the Glencoe 1/350 NS Savannah? Is it really 1/350? Is is a new model or a resized Lifelike 1/424? How is the fit? Is it full hull or waterline? << I started this kit about a year ago and gave up after doing some research. I didn't check the scale and don't know about the Lifelike kit but..... If you want to do a good job on the kit, at the very least, you'll have to toss the entire superstructure and start from scratch. It is full hull. The hull lacks two flipped-like fins under the waterline. As I recall, it may have been designed to hold a motor. The opening for the prop is huge - about the diameter of a pencil. Beautiful ship, lousy kit. I gave up and chucked it. Mark -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Simon Percival" Subject: Airfix 600 KGV conversion to POW please help I am planning on building my Airfix 600 scale KGV as Prince of Wales, can anybody help me out with schematics but mainly the colour scheme. Would be very grateful to receive any advice or tips. Thanks. SimonP -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Felix Bustelo Subject: Re: American Civil War Sub Movie Bob, What your son is talking about was a promo for an upcoming TNT movie on the CSS Hunley. It was a "behind the scenes" clip of about two minutes which showed craftsmen bulding an exact 1:1 replica of the Hunley. The replica looked pretty nice, I hpoe that the movie will be as good. It is scheduled to air in spring of 1999 on TNT. At least this network will create original movies on such obscure historical topics like this. Felix Bustelo -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: CVE Flight Deck Colors A flight deck is a flight deck is a flight deck: Those on the CVEs also used the blue stain, Norfolk 250N for the earliest units, which would have then re-stained when necessary with Flight Deck Stain 21 (a good deal lighter) that replaced it. BTW, both these colors are included in our USN WW2 paint chip set #1.... John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: Range Clocks There was recently a long thread on this subject, but I can't remember if it was on SMML; you might want to check the archives. The short answer, however, is that it was a visual means of indicating range to target to the ships ahead and astern in the battle line. For a period, US battleships also carried bearing markings on the superfiring main battery turrets (#2 and #3) that could also be seen from ships ahead and astern, indicating the firing bearing. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Michael Connelley Subject: Re: Range Clocks Hello: The range clocks were officially known as concentration dials and were used in concentration firing. They were used to communicate a ship's firing range to the ship in front of her and behind her in the battle line. Apparently this idea was taken from the British experience at the Battle of Jutland. The idea is that if one ship in the battle line could see the target but others couldn't, then the others could see the range the ship was firing and also the angle of deflection from a broadside from scales painted on the #2 and #3 turrets and then fire on the target as well. Of course this is back when the battleships would line up and slug it out with eachother (or at least that was the big idea at the time). The USS Arizona had her range clocks until her January 1941 refit and by then the painted scales on the turrets were long since gone (the only photos of the Penn or Arizona I have showing the angle of deflection scales is from 1921), so I'm guessing that by the outbreak of WW2 the range clocks were largely gone from the US BB fleet. I hope this helps you out. Cheers Mike Connelley -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Jens H. Brandal" Subject: WEM gauge and Kirov From: "Caroline Carter" >> I was talking to Bob Brown of MDC, who is trying to suss a way to get the buffers to spring....maybe a more flexible resin? << You Brits are absolutely mad, but in such charming ways:) Now I understand the idea behind the 1:700 aircraft... >> and Interesting to see what happened to the ex-Skywave partially-completed Kirov tooling........ << Go on, tell us! On the subject of Russian warships, there are now plans to tow the Kiev to the scrapyard, and the last time a major Russian warship (heavy cruiser Murmansk IIRC) was towed outside the coast of Norway, the shipwreck got "untowed" and ended up on the shore. There are fears that this may happen again, and if it becomes a habit, then we'll have more Russian ships than the Russian Navy:) The Murmansk is still rusting away as the company responsible for towing it went bust, and the local vs central government are arguing who's responsible to get rid of it. Jens -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Duane Fowler Subject: Range clocks In the days before ship to ship voice radiowas common (spark gap code transmitters were neither swift nor private) Range Clocks were used to tell other freindly ships the range to the target. The common battle plan of the day called for the ships to sail in a line so that they could concentrate there firepower so the range clocks were located on the masts facing foward and aft. During the twenties (and possibly later?) some battleships had asimuth markings painted on there higher turrets so that the other ships could see the angle. When voice radio and newer tactic were adopted, range clocks became obsolete. Regards, Duane Fowler -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Foeth" Subject: Re: Welded German Sterns It could be that the welding weakened the resistance to crack development. In the early years, welding was of a poor quality, and the quality of the steel was quite bad in the Heat Affected Zone (HAZ) where the steel alloy recristalised while cooling down. Resistance to cracks lead to spectacular failures in the Liberty ships and T2 tankers, of which even one broke, while laying gently at her moorings. A crack could develop speeds up to 2000 meters per second, splitting the shell plating. However, this was not the case with rivetted ships, as maximum stresses would direct themselves to the rivet holes, where the growing crack came to a sudden stop. It may be possible that the stern broke off at a structural change in the structure (This does not automatically results high stresses!), where stiffness would see a sudden increase. This transition could result in the crack, after a torpedo hit. Remember, a ship, or any structure, which is exposed to heavy shockloading, will vibrate heavily as the energy of the resulting movement is being damped out. This is called transient whipping, and is responsible for all kinds of equipment and men being thrown from their fundaments and respective feet (resulting in many fractured skulls etc), when the phenomenon is powerfull enough (And a torpedo-hit can result in violent whipping) Perhaps the change in hull sitffness resulted in an overload, ripping of the stern. I should really make this my graduation subject, but historical subjects are not welcomed. Evert-Jan Foeth -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Duane Fowler Subject: DKM Prinz Eugen I don't think I would look forward to strolling around a salvaged Prinz Eugen. It was blasted by a couple of atomic bombs and has been rusting capsized in tropical waters for 50 years. Even the armor plates are rusting completely through. And the superstructure iz smashed even with the main deck. There might be a few artifacts left, but nothing that you would be able to "tour." Regards, Duane Fowler -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Lee Francis Wilhelmsen Subject: Building the Tamiya HMS King George V 1/350 Hi all. I just received my GMM set for my 1/350 KGV and therefore have a few questions. The camouflage: Both the 1/700 and 1/350 Tamiya KGV's look to be from the same time period, but exactly when did the the KGV wear the camou pattern described in the painting instructions - the one with the dark grey "extended" armor belt? (My guess is late 1944.) The hull portholes: The GMM instructions say that the lower rows of the KGV's portholes in the hull were plated over from late 1942. Does this mean that these should not be drilled out if I am to use the camouflage pattern described above? Also, does this apply to the lower rows at the bow and stern or just bow? The degaussing cable: Is this optional? Is it supposed to lie on the top ledge of the armor belt. Should it lie in the light grey or dark grey section of the hull. Hope this makes sense to someone out there. Best regards Lee Francis Wilhelmsen Stavanger, Norway -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Pieter Cornelissen Subject: Re: Prinz Eugen >> Seriously, does anyone know the status of a German sponsored salvage of the Prinz Eugen? I read some bits about it a few years ago, even have a German language book on the project, but have not heard any updates for a while. << To anyone thinking about a nice salvage operation on Prinz Eugen; Don't even think about it. She survived two very primitive= very dirty atomic blasts. Paople involved in salvaging the ship and some others after test 'Baker' are still sueing the US government because of the radriologicAL after effects. Prinz Eugen would make a nice trip for sightseeing in about the year 10.000. Only then some of the isotopes will have decayed to a safe level (if there is such a thing a safe isotope level). Pieter Cornelissen -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: CHRIS DRAGE Subject: Cranes Hello all SMMeLies, Thanks to Bob Stein et al for setting the record straight on thin brass rodding - the smallest available currently is 0.006" from Detail Associates and their stockists. On another subject - it's great news for we diorama builders to learn that WEM are producing 1:700 dockside railway components - but what about etch brass cranes in a variety of types and styles? How about interested SMMeLies letting WEM know the strength of interest in extending the 'docks' range? (1:1200 scale has an enormous range of dockyard buildings, piers etc) How about it Caroline? Regards, Chris -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "scola" Subject: RIGGING FOR WW II SHIPS I've experimented with several methods of rigging my ships from using deadeyes, drilling small holes in decks and masts to tighten rigging, fishing line ect. Anyone out there have any suggestions or methods for doing a rigging job that looks authentic. I have yet to find any books on this subject. Thanks Rich at scola@gateway.net -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "Mike Leonard" Subject: Re: German Turret Top Colors 'For the information of all hands', I am quoting here an item that appeared in the most recent issue of Warship International, sent in by a Naval Reserve colleague of mine who I know to be very well read on the subject of the German navies of both WW1 and WW2. "Colored German turret tops of WWII by John P. Simanton, Chesapeake, VA USA Both colorations of German turret tops (weinrot -- carmine red -- in the Baltic and yellow in the Atlantic) served the same purpose, which was recognition by German aircraft. For the same reason, Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, & Prinz Eugen had their turret top painted blue for the 1942 Channel Dash. Additionally, major German warships usually displayed very large hakenkruez (swastikas) on their forecastles and fantails. These deck markings are still clearly visible on the wreck of the Bismark. Although Ballard quotes her senior surviving officers as stating that the deck markings were painted over as Bismark proceeded toward the Atlantic, and speculates that the painted covering has worn off since sinking, other sources indicate that the markings had canvas coverings which allowed for their quick display if needed. The latter seems more likely. Smaller units, such as minesweepers, sometimes had a flag displayed horizontally to serve for aircraft recognition purposes. I do not know the reason for the differing colors depending on geographic location; but I do know that the Luftwaffe had a preference for prominent color identification markings which differed depending on the location. For example, yellow wing tips and other markings were used on the Russian Front. I would suspect that the choice of turret top color(s) was arrived at through a joint agreement between the Luftwaffe and Kreigsmarine. Both services would have paid very serious attention to such identification markings after two German destroyers were lost early in the war, due at least partially to an erroneous attack by German aircraft. Sources: Ballard, the Discovery of the Bismark, pages 170 & 177" Mike L Alexandria, VA USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "Richard L. Neville" Subject: Warship Config. Dates Food for thought and discussion. It would be very helpful if manufacturers would be a little bit more specific when they list a date of config. for a model. I realize some changes occurred adhoc and just "show up" in a photo or plan. But major modifications were fairly well documented. A January 1943 USN CA Louisville is a far cry from a Dec. 1943 version. It would be helpful. And thats my two cents worth. Rick Cambodia -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: "Prof. George J. Stein" Subject: Hon Kong Hobby Shop Art Nicholson asked about a Hong Kong Hobby Shop to get Zengdhefu kits. Sorry, no HK shops info, but, try their web site! http://www.btinternet.com/~worthington.aviation/United.htm Interesting stuff & great links to color photos of PLA(N) ships, etc. Good hunting. Prof. George Stein Air War College -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: b29@ix.netcom.com Subject: The ORIGIN of CV >> James, (and a few others) got it right: The ORIGIN of CV was Cruiser, aViation The first few aircraft carriers were built on Cruiser hulls. CL - Cruiser, Light << Sorry Larry, but you didn't get it quite right. The first few carriers were NOT built on CL hulls. LANGLEY was the former JUPITER, a collier converted to our first CV. SARA and LEX were built on battlecruiser hulls, CONSTELLATION Class, which were designated CC's. THAT'S WHERE THE "C" IN "CV" COMES FROM. Yes, carriers were considered "cruisers" but not because they were built on light cruiser hulls. They were considered cruisers because when we adopted the "CV" designation, the first real carriers that we had were the two built on battleCRUISER hulls; Yes, they were considered as part of the "scouting" force, and in the case of SARA and LEX were given the standard cruiser armament of the time, 8" guns. After "CV" was adopted, LANGLEY became CV-1 though she was never considered to be anything like a cruiser. She was slow, and most of her life as a carrier served as either an experimental ship or training ship. RANGER, ENTERPRISE, YORKTOWN, HORNET, WASP, and ALL CV's built thereafter were built from the keel up as carriers. The first ships built on LIGHT cruiser hulls were the INDEPENDENCE Class CVL's. The designations for cruisers has an interesting history. The "CA" designation was first used in the 1920's for the old armored cruisers. Until about 1931, the 8" gunned "Treaty" cruisers were all designated as light cruisers. If you look in Jane's FS through 1931 you'll see them listed as "light cruisers." Then, around 1931, the last of the armored cruisers were retired and the new BROOKLYN Class were planned. All 8" gun ships were redesignated "Heavy Cruisers", and 6" gun ships retained the light cruiser designation. The reason for this has much to do with the developments in cruiser design at the end of WW I, and the agreements reached in the various disarmament treaties of the 1930's. In the Washington Treaty, cruiser armament was limited to 8" guns and tonnage 10,000. Navies were already building larger light cruisers which were the outgrowth of those built at the end of WWI. The new British CAVENDISH Class lights were the biggest "light cruisers" in 1921, and mounted 7.5" guns at the time of the Washington Treaty, so 8" was a natural limitation for cruisers. Between 1923 and 1929 every navy concentrated on building 8" cruisers, within the 10,000 ton treaty limit. 6" cruisers were ignored, except in rare instances or those laid down before the treaty. That's why the US didn't build any 6" gunned cruisers during the 20's (all the OMAHA's were pre-treaty ships). Many 8" gunned ships were known as "tinclads" because so little armor could be incorporated in a ship under 10,000 tons. Interestingly enough, the German "pocket battleships" were also limited to 10,000 tons, but not because of the Washington Treaty, but rather because of the Treaty of Versailles. In fact, the alleged "miracle" of the pocket battleships was a fraud. The ships were heavier than 10,000 tons. In the 1927 Geneva and 1930 London treaties limitations were placed on NUMBERS of cruisers that could carry 8" guns, and numbers that could carry 6". Now, many countries switched to building 6" ships. The British, French and Italians had already built almost to the limit of 8" ships allowed, but not the US. During the 30's, all the major powers built up to their treaty limits (and in some instances beyond). Now logic might dictate that Heavy Cruisers were a refinement of the old armored cruiser and therefore the "CA" designation followed. Not so. The modern CA owes it's lineage to the World War I light cruiser, NOT the old armored cruiser. "CA" just stuck, tho the Navy could have adopted "CH" an abbreviation never used. And logic might also dictate that once the Navy started building CV's from the keel up, or abandoned the notion of carriers as "scouts" that they could have dropped the "C" from CV but again, tradition stuck. So the "CV" abbreviation is perhaps just the result of chance, timing and naval theory at the time it was adopted. Paul Jacobs -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: James Corley Subject: Re: 'V' >> I have a tendency to disagree with the supposition that the 'V' in CV, AV, etc., refers to heavier-than-air craft. << Does it stand for Vessel? If so, what does the V in VF, VA, etc stand for? The answer is found in old texts, nothing modern really relates to the origins of "CV" >> I took a quick look at the Fahey Ships and Aircraft of the USN and believe the 'V' stands for ANYTHING aviation related. Blimb and airship designations all had ZNN or ZNR squadron titles (presumably for Zeppelin, Navy, Non-rigid and Zeppelin, Navy, Rigid). << Acutually..... The blimp units were niether of these. The "Z" derives from the Zeppelin name, the "ZNR" was actually "ZRN" (Zepp., Rigid, Training). ZNN = Zepp., Non-rigid, Training. the following nomenclature for z-units was used: Rigid NonRigid Kite/Balloon 1930s: Training Units ZRN ZNN ZKN Observation ZON ZKO Patrol ZRP ZNP Scouting ZRS ZNS WW2: Patrol/ASW ZP Scout ZS (not actually assigned, AFAIK) Post War: Early Warning ZW Patrol/ASW ZP >> Also, USS Patoka (AO-9) was converted during the 20's into a support ship for the mammoth airships Makon and Shannendoah with a derigible mast on the stern, and her designation was AV-6. An exception? << In the interim, however, she was designated as AZ-1, & was later AV-6 when converted to seaplane tender duties. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: Sanartjam@aol.com Subject: Re: Perry Class Anchor Hi, Thanks to everyone who posted with information on the placement of the anchor on the Perry Class frigate! Art Nicholson -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------ 22) From: Gary Au Subject: Re: 1/700 H.M.S. Invincible Just acquired the 1/700 H.M.S. Invincible (Falklands War 1982) from the hobby shop produced by Dragon Shanghai. Full hull model. 1 piece of Skywave E-4 set. 2 same spruce contain total four Harriers and two Seakings. Decal for Invincible only. No truck. Nice kits like the Tarawa. Gary, Hong Kong. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: CIWS model masters photos Photos of some our 1/35 Close In Weapon System masters are up on our web site. Checkout Flagship Models web site at: http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume