Subject SMML23/11/98VOL372 Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 11:35:16 +1100 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: "cod war frigate" 2: Re: 1/700 HMS Invincible 3: Books on Italian warships 4: Deck painting 5: Re: Hong Kong Hobby Shops 6: Re: Rigging for WW II Ships 7: German Color Chip Charts 1914-1944 8: Re: thanks very much ! 9: Airfix 1/600 conversion of KGV to PoW 10: KGV camouflage 11: 'Cod War' frigates 12: Re: cod war 13: Re: crack development 14: Kong Hobby Shop 15: Cod War Frigate 16: LSM SHIP MODEL 17: Re: The Cod War 1975-76 18: Planking On Wood Ships 19: Re: 'V' 20: 1/350 Sea Sparrow -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: FLIGHTDECK 350 releases -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Caroline Carter" Subject: Re: "cod war frigate" Hi Les, The Leander Class frigates involved were Diomede (got well rammed by the Icelandic gun boat Baldur) Naiad, Andromeda, Leander, Juno, Galatea, Bacchante, Scylla. Other frigates were involved but not Leanders. Cheers! Caroline Carter White Ensign Models http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/avenue/xdt22/index.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Caroline Carter" Subject: Re: 1/700 HMS Invincible Good news indeed! However, Revell UK are still denying the kit is in production... I guess that means that they have no packaging, decals, and instructions for the Revell kit. We can't get Dragon ship kits in the U.K. at this time, due to the crappiness of certain importers, which is, of course, intensely frustrating, as we get hassled by people wanting them.. can anyone put me in contact with a wholesaler in e.g. Hong Kong or Singapore who could supply us with various Dragon items missing from our lists such as the Invincible, the Russian re-releases and the subs for example. Best Regards Caroline Carter -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Joanne Sloan Subject: Books on Italian warships I'm looking for ship references for Italian warships of WWII. I have Aldo Fraccaroli's Italian Warships of World War II, and a small book on their battleships, but I need more information. Can any one recommend some references? Is there not a book out there which might include auxiliaries? Thanks, Mark Sloan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "AltonB" Subject: Deck painting I'm new at ship building just moveing up from plastic to reisen. When is it a good time to paint the deck. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Gary Au Subject: Re: Hong Kong Hobby Shops Hi Art, I am happy to help you by buying the kit from the shop and mail to you. Let me know if you need help. The Jiangwei-class come in 1/350 and 1/200 but not by Zengdfefu. These kits go quick and refill around every four to six months. Gary, Hong Kong. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: Rigging for WW II Ships While perhaps not dealing specifically with the techniques you've used nor the questions you've raised, two of the best books in my library are _Scale Model Warships_ (1978), edited by John Bowens and the authors in which are a virtual Who's Who (John Bowen, Alan Raven, Dave Sambrook, H.T.N. Batchelor, Giancarlo Barbieri, Peter Hodges, Don Brown, Larry Sowinski, Colin Gross, and Roger Chesneau), and John Bowen's _A Ship Modelmaker's Manual (1982). Both of these are, of course, long out of print so you'll have to search around for them, though I see the warship volume advertised fairly regularly by Columbia Trading Company or Bill Gruner at Pacific Front Hobbies. Probably the best readily-available book at the moment is Mike Ashey's _Building & Detailing Scale Model Ships: The Complete Guide to Building, Detailing, Scratchbuilding, and Modifying Scale Model Ships_, Kalmbach Books, 1996. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ) From: "javelin" Subject: German Color Chip Charts 1914-1944 Does a reliable, and accurate, source exist for paint swatches matched to naval colors of WWI and WWII German wartime vessels? (Or for that matter, other principal navies of the period). I am aware of several sources for the U.S. Navy, but have yet to find a source (with the exception of 'artists renderings') for non U.S. combatants. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks. Marc. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Dublindogs@aol.com Subject: Re: thanks very much ! thanks for all the helpful advice about 1/144 scale. michael -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Robert Lockie" Subject: Airfix 1/600 conversion of KGV to PoW The Airfix kit depicts KGV in early 1941, so at least PoW is not too difficult a conversion. I have a decent amount on the subject culled from various sources, so if you let me know your snail mail address, I can mail them to you. I think the subject has come up before on SMML (check the archives) but there are useful articles in an old IPMS UK magazine, Scale Models (unfortunately I forget which issues of both) and Warship 9, 10 and 11. Issue 9 contains deck plans and starboard elevations for PoW in May 1941 and July 1941 and lists variations in armament, radar, boats and refits while 11 gives the colour schemes including port and starboard side drawings of the last scheme she carried. You will need to remove the external degaussing coil (only KGV had one) and there was a knuckle on the hull side just below the fo'c'sle deck on PoW only. A single 40mm Bofors will also be needed for the stern. Robert Lockie -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Robert Lockie" Subject: KGV camouflage According to Warship 11, KGV carried six colour schemes, as follows: * Trials (1940) - AP 507A and 507B (greys) in an angular geometric pattern * 12/1940-02/1941 - Dazzle scheme of 507A, 507B and 507C * 02/1941-06/1942 - Overall medium grey * 06/1942-02/1944 - Admiralty disruptive scheme of 507A, B5, B6 and 507C * 07/1945-12/1945 - Admiralty standard type B scheme of G45 with a panel of B20 (medium blue, not dark grey) on the hull side * 1946 onwards - Light grey overall For information, the other colours are 507A dark grey, 507B medium grey, 507C/G45 light grey, B5 medium blue, B6 light blue. The external degaussing coil was removed in the 02-07/1944 refit; during the same one, most of the lower (all but three; 1 fwd and 2 aft) scuttles and some of the upper ones were plated over and various changes made to the radars, AA armament and searchlights. A number of the scuttles were reinstated in the 12/1945 refit. Warship 10 has some useful drawings and photographs of the various stages, as well as a description of the modifications. Robert Lockie -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "Robert Lockie" Subject: 'Cod War' frigates There was a series of articles about wargaming the Cod War, written by AJ Ambrose and published in Military Modelling magazine between December 1981 and June 1982 (by which time the RN was involved in another war altogether). The first of these lists HM Ships Diomede, Juno, Scylla, Bacchante and Andromeda (all Leanders) and Yarmouth and Lowestoft (Rothesays) as being present. At least one RFA (Grey Rover) and minesweeper (Monkton) were also deployed on the British side. 1/600 deck plans and starboard elevations of the ICGV Aegir (the other four were Thor, Tyr, Baldur and Odin), HMS Lowestoft, HMS Glasserton and a typical deep sea trawler were in the February 1982 issue. Robert Lockie -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Graham Walker" Subject: Re: cod war Hi Les I think you are thinking of the Blackwood Type 14 frigates, which were transfered to the fishery protection squadron and had their bows plated with lenghts of timber. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Dave Swindell Subject: Re: crack development >> It could be that the welding weakened the resistance to crack development. In the early years, welding was of a poor quality, and the quality of the steel was quite bad in the Heat Affected Zone (HAZ) where the steel alloy recristalised while cooling down. Resistance to cracks lead to spectacular failures in the Liberty ships and T2 tankers, of which even one broke, while laying gently at her moorings. A crack could develop speeds up to 2000 meters per second, splitting the shell plating. However, this was not the case with rivetted ships, as maximum stresses would direct themselves to the rivet holes, where the growing crack came to a sudden stop. It may be possible that the stern broke off at a structural change in the structure (This does not automatically results high stresses!), where stiffness would see a sudden increase. This transition could result in the crack, after a torpedo hit. Remember, a ship, or any structure, which is exposed to heavy shockloading, will vibrate heavily as the energy of the resulting movement is being damped out. This is called transient whipping, and is responsible for all kinds of equipment and men being thrown from their fundaments and respective feet (resulting in many fractured skulls etc), when the phenomenon is powerfull enough (And a torpedo-hit can result in violent whipping) Perhaps the change in hull sitffness resulted in an overload, ripping of the stern. I should really make this my graduation subject, but historical subjects are not welcomed. << I have to disagree with some of what Evert-Jan posts above. Whilst poor welding can lead to crack propagation under fatigue stress, the mechanics and technology of welding were well known by the 30's, the period you seem to be talking about. They were only relatively new in ship building. Poor welds would be more attributable to poorly trained workmen (and women) doing a highly skilled job, or shoddy and bad welding practices used by welders paid by the foot. Cracking is something that has been around ever since metal ships were first built and you won't find a metal ship afloat without cracks somewhere. Cracking was very common in rivetted ships, usually causing rivet failure. As a riveted ship is made up of seperate plates tied together with rivets, a crack in one plate cannot propagate from one plate to the next as it can across welded joints, but successive failure of rivets can lead to the failure of joints, and when this happens these can propagate to other joints due to the increased stresses, thus catastrophic failure can result from cracking in a rivetted ship. Whilst cracks can propagate with frightening speed, they only do so when subjected to extreme stresses. Ships do not break in two whilst gently lying at their moorings due solely to crack propagation. Huge external forces have to be applied, and the crack is the weak link that decides where failure will take place, not if it will take place. Tankers that break their backs at their moorings do so because of an error in loading or discharge. Ships are not rigid, they flex twist and bend by large ammounts, and to prevent the stresses induced by this they have to be loaded and discharged accordingly. If loading and ballasting are not carefully controlled, then the stresses induced can lead to a ship breaking it's back. In extreme cases this can happen in port, in other cases the additional stresses imposed by the sea cause the failure. Under wartime pressure these limits would have been taken to the limit or even ignored with some catastrophic results. Anyone interested in catastrophic failure and how a ship can die in a couple of minutes should check out http://www.shipping.detr.gov.uk/mvds/mvds10.htm for a chilling report on the loss of the Derbyshire. This was thought to be through the loss of the stern section due to cracking which was found on all of her sisterships, but was proved not to be the case. Dave Swindell -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Dave Swindell Subject: Kong Hobby Shop I don't know if they have the kits you were after, but the best model shop I've found in Hong Kong is Universal Hobbies on Waterloo Road in Kowloon. The have a branch on Hong Kong Island but this was smaller last time I went. They have a wide range of kits and modelling books. Worth a visit if you're in the area. Dave Swindell -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: CBNJBB62@aol.com Subject: Cod War Frigate Dear Sir: I have the following information concerning the leander class frigate by Les Pickstock. I have a book called the Leander Class -Modern Combat Ships -1 and in the chapter dealing with 1970s operations it was a duty station for the RN that took place for many years. It seems that Nov 1975 to April 1976 saw the deployment of 2 tankers and the frigates of the leander class: Diomede,Naiad,Andromeda,Leander, Juno,Galatea,Bacchante,and Scylla. It would appear that the Diomede was rammed by the Icelandic gunboats Tyr and Baldur at six times. Causing damage. I hope that this is of help to Mr. Pickstock. Sincerely Craig Bennett -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: RAJAN5@aol.com Subject: LSM SHIP MODEL DEAR SIR; I SERVED ON A LSM LANDING CRAFT IN KOREA. NOW THAT I'M RETIRED I WOULD LIKE TO MAKE A MODEL OF SAME. DO YOU HAVE ANY MODELS,PLANS, OR PICTURES OF THEM? THANK YOU ; RAYMOND HEBERT -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "Mr J Owen" Subject: Re: The Cod War 1975-76 In reply to Les Picstock's enquiry; Her Majesty's Ships Naiad, Leander, Diomede, Andromeda, Galatea and Juno were all Leander class frigates which were involved in the so called Cod War. Naiad, Diomede and Leander were all damaged. Other frigates involved were Leopard, Salisbury, Mermaid, Gurkha and Falmouth. Nine Icelandic Coastguard ships provided the opposition and included, Thor, Tyr, Baldur, Ver and Odinn. I hope that yhis is of some help, Jim Owen. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: Ray S Katzaman Subject: Planking On Wood Ships >> I just finished with the first planking on a double plank on frame ship, the Swift an 1805 Virginia Pilot Boat. The planks were attached to the frame with CA glue and planking bronze nails. The instructions say to sand the planks so as to have a smooth even surface for the final outer planking. My question is, do I remove the planking nails, counter sink them or just sand over them (since they are bronze, they will be sanded down along with the inner planks)? << Your assistance will be greatly appreciated and put to good use. Incidentally, I am building the Swift as a refresher and training platform for the more complex Cutty Sark (40 inches long) that I will start this coming January. Your assistance will be greatly appreciated and put to good use. Cheers, Ray S. Katzaman IPMS 35112 Austin, Texas -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: James Corley Subject: Re: 'V' >> Sorry Larry, but you didn't get it quite right. The first few carriers were NOT built on CL hulls. LANGLEY was the former JUPITER, a collier converted to our first CV. SARA and LEX were built on battlecruiser hulls, CONSTELLATION Class, which were designated CC's. THAT'S WHERE THE "C" >IN "CV" COMES FROM. [snip] After "CV" was adopted, LANGLEY became CV-1 though she was never considered to be anything like a cruiser. << Not so, the nomenclature for CV came into being due to the 1920 reorganization and became effective in 1921....TWO YEARS before LANGLEY became a "covered wagon" [Aircraft Carriers, Norman Polmar, 1969, pg50] (maybe CV comes from covered vagon....German pronunciation??!) >> "CA" just stuck, tho the Navy could have adopted "CH" an abbreviation never used. << Except for the NATO designation for a helicopter cruiser (Jeanne D'Arc, etc) ************ From: James Corley Subject: Re: 'V' >> In the interim, however, she was designated as AZ-1, & was later AV-6 when converted to seaplane tender duties. << In my haste, I misspoke, the WRIGHT was the ship that became AZ-1, later AV-1. Of course, I could still be wrong. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Mac Subject: 1/350 Sea Sparrow Hi Folks, I'm building Tamiya's 1/350 Enterprise, and I am shocked at the size of the Sea Sparrow BPDMS launchers, as I have built numerous Dragon 1/350th Spruance class ships, and the launchers are about 1/5 the size of Tamiya's. Which is more accurate? (2) Does anyone know of a 1/400 Crotale missile launcher. I am building Hellers Duguay Trouin and it comes with a third 3.9 inch gun instead of the Crotale.The box stated that she is equipped with the system but it isnt.Disapointing to say the least. (3) Does anyone know where to locate Revell Germany's old kit of the Dutch Kortenaer class ffg? I built the German Bremen class, which is practically the same kit, but I havent seen the Dutch one for years. Cheers, Ian http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/9089/ Mac's Navy Links -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Caroline Carter" Subject: FLIGHTDECK 350 releases Hi SMMLlies, We have released the following items today... "Flightdeck 350" WEM FD023 1/350 Fairey Swordfish + etched brass (x2) 7.62 Pounds WEM FD024 1/350 Fairey Albacore + etched brass (x2) 7.62 Pounds The photoetched brass set for EACH cast resin Swordfish kit has 14 parts by the way! The "DOCKYARD MATEY'S" little 1/700 trains are waiting on the sidings to be photographed and I will try to get some nice pics on the website this weekend. Also have received a 1/700 Mobile Canteen... no dockside would have been seen without one in the last war!! Just need the scale model teapot.... BTW, Chris et al, Peter Hall IS doing photoetched dockside cranes for us in photoetch... We are finally tracking down some decent drawings at long last. You are looking at generally BIG, which means, once folded out with all the bracing etc. they will take up a very large surface area... each crane will have its own photoetched sheet, and of course will have to have the cab/machinery bit in cast resin.. but it IS happening. All the 1/700 Askold castings are here and all the etched brass, so just waiting on the Maestro to get cracking on finishing the instructions as usual.. I obviously don't beat him enough.. And we have decided on doing a 1/450 Scale Fixed Wing Aircraft Parts for 1/400-1/500 carrier aircraft. AND Peter Hall's ATLANTIC MODELS 1/350 HMS Peacock, Hong Kong Patrol vessel, is now here with us.. gorgeous and comprehensive etched brass sheet, lovely casting, can be built either full hull or waterline, has a full and explicit set of instructions, and retails at 30.45 pounds worldwide (add VAT at 17.5% for Europe). One pound equals about 1.64 U.S. dollars for anyone who doesn't understand the Queen's coinage. Luv Caroline Carter White Ensign Models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume