Subject: SMML09/12/98Vol389 Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:10:20 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Depth Charges 2: Re: painting depth charges and other removable gear 3: Re: Jim Shirley Oriskany kit 4: Re: Depth charge paint 5: Re: Yellow Bismarck turrets 6: Re: Lindberg Oregon 7: Dutch destroyers 8: Re: Inclining 9: Re: Carrier deck markings 10: Re: Carrier deck names 11: Re: Revell LSD? 12: Re: Depth Charge Color 13: Re: USS William D. Porter 14: Re: Ms 32/14D 15: Re: CV Deck markings 16: USS Oregon -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: GLENCOE Oregon -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Tom Dean Subject: Depth Charges I would have to agree with Mike Czibovic's thoughts on the subject. I can only speak for charges I have seen in museums in Canada and the UK and aboard preserved ships. I have seen charges painted black, dark grey & light grey. Many had bright stripes around them (green - red diamonds) indicating what type of explosive they contained. The different colours might have been an attempt to at least come close to the camo schemes or standardize colours but the bright stripes would seem to belie this! I really don't think the colour of a charge would make that much difference anyway. Most were in storage racks or on the rails and wouldn't be seen clearly anyway. These were often covered on the top by wooden platforms for protection from the winter weather of the Atlantic. The only ones at all visible from any distance would be on the throwers. Again often covered until "action stations" or hostile waters! Again I can only relate to the ships in the North Atlantic, but I am sure that many of the same operational requirements applied to ships in the Pacific. Ships would quickly use up their charges and have to cross deck from another ship or supply ship, sometimes at sea and sometimes in harbour. I am sure the supply from one naval establishment to another would vary at different stages during the war. I build large scale models (1/72 1/48 etc) and for the above reasons I have always showed a bit of a mixed bag of charges. Maybe the majority light grey with red stripes, and few dark grey mixed in, and also a few "heavy" charges for variety. Also slap a bit gunky looking stuff on the lift rings and primer rings to simulate grease. I would question the "fighting spirit" of a ships Captain who planned on holding onto his charges long enough that they had to match the camo scheme anyway. Just my thoughts Tom Dean Hamilton, Ontario Canada -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: CaptainOD@aol.com Subject: Re: painting depth charges and other removable gear My uncle served as an enlisted sailor before receiving a commission. He had often told of how they would paint everything and anything. During early months of the war, they tried to drop some depth charges but couldn't get them to roll as they were basically painted in place. Ship's appearance was first concern over moral, food, liberty, etc. Finally they got them out, but they failed to detonate. He blamed this on age, left over WW1 (?) and the fact that they had so much paint on them that the detonators couldn't detect pressure difference. I believe that Ernest Borginne (McHales' Navy) who also served in the Navy had a similar experience. Based on my experience, if they were in the racks and standard chip and paint detail was working on or near them, they got painted. If they were replenished at port or underway, they would be in factory color until next chip and paint detail. Also remember that this was done at time permitted, and in sections or as touch up, leaving a very spotty appearance. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Jim Shirley Oriskany kit >> It's a new Jim Shirley kit - I saw one in Austin. Pretty nice resin waterline model of a modernized Essex. << I have built one of J.S. kits. Specifically, the Gearing FRAM DD. The big gripe I had about it was the lack of photo etched parts. The kit I built had a few PE parts but not nearly enough to do the kit. Lacking rails, ladders, helopad nets and so on. I saw 1/700 JS Oriskany about a year ago but I don't recall if has a full PE detail sheet. This is imperative because all the safety nets are designed to fit just this class of carrier. It would be a royal pain if not impossible to cobble the nets together using existing PE sets. The price of JS kits is about the same as others with full PE sets. I don't know if it's a good or bad kit. Just check out the kit closely before you buy it and be aware if all the safety nets aren't included with the PE you will have to make them yourself. Maybe I'm too picky about this stuff being in the business. Rusty White Flagship Models inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Depth charge paint >> To paint them they would have had to have been removed from the racks, painted and left long enough for the oil-based paint to dry. Besides that, who would want to take a chance that they might be stuck in the racks due to tacky paint sticking to the rails or having paint slopped into the setting mechanisms. << That makes sense. Also consider that depth charge cans are rolled into the racks. To get the maximum use of the "Camo. Can" scheme, the crewmen would have to adjust the cans once into their stored position in the racks. You're talking about a LOT time here. As someone else suggested, I would paint the cans overall gray, deck blue or even black. Deck Blue or black would make the most logical sense. These two color would not be seen from the air due to the small size of the depth charges. I can't prove any of this but that's basically the navy's logic during the war. Take it for what it's worth. Rusty White Flagship Models inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "Pletscher-Lenz-Schneider" Subject: Re: Yellow Bismarck turrets Evert-Jan Foeth wrote. >> I had some talks with a German Bismarck expert...who spoke to a Bismarck survivor, Mr. Statz in 1992, who claimed that the turrets were indeed painted yellow, and the paint was washed off of the 15cm turrets immediately, and even slightly of the 38cm A-turret. << This is very interesting. I also spoke to a German Bismarck "expert" who is in contact with Mr. Statz. He told me this year that Mr. Statz is insisting on that the turrets never were yellow at any time. So you see what human memory is worth for evidence. Falk Pletscher -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: RCClem@aol.com Subject: Re: Lindberg Oregon >> I'm looking for the Lindberg USS Oregon kit (1/225 I think) - Local hobby shop tells me they are curently not in production. Anybody have one they are willing to part with for a reasonable price? - opened OK, but unbuilt - let me know what the going price is. << Glenn, Glencoe now produces the Oregon in 1/225. I see it often in hobby shops for less than $30. It may be based on a previously produced Lindberg model or another manufacturer. Also, Tom's Modelworks is having a sale right now on their Photoetch kit for this model. $24 + $2 S&H. I just ordered it for my Glencoe Oregon. (No commissions sought or accepted.) Also, if you wish to "crew" your model, "Z" scale railroad figures fit very nicely at this scale. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Jeffrey Roberts" Subject: Dutch destroyers Hello all. I posted this about a month ago but didn't get any hits at the time so I decided to throw this out one more time. I'm interested in modeling the Dutch destroyer Isaac Sweers (as completed with British armament) and her German sister-ship ZH1 (ex-Dutch Gerard Callenburgh) and was wondering if anyone on the list can point me in the direction of any plans or other related information on these two ships and the Callenburgh class destroyers in general. Right now all I have is a set of drawings of the original design (which appears to differ from both ships as they were completed) and 2 photos of each ship. The two shots of ZH1 in particular leave alot to be desired so any additional info would be appreciated. Thanks and Happy Holidays to all. Jeff Roberts North Hollywood CA USA Hi Jeff, As I recently posted, I've picked up a stack of Warships International. I'll have a hunt thru & see what I can find. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Evert-Jan Foeth" Subject: Re: Inclining As for the mass distribution of the ship: This is not the important factor. The location of the centre of bouyancy in relation to the centre of gravity is. A very wide but topheavy ship can still have a larger righting arm than a light but narrow craft. A direct disadvantage to a large righting arm is that the craft is so stable, it will roll back to it's normal position faster than a less stable craft. This can cause sea-sickness if not properly designed. This is the reason the large ocean liners had very small righting arms (Metacentric hights around 1 foot!), to maximise the rolling period and thus decrease acceleration (G-forces, if you insist). A battleship typically has an extreme metacentric hight (Bismarck's was over 12 feet), making it very stable ships, but crew unfriendly. A british monitor even had a metacentric height of over 18 feet. Large passenger catamarans also have a very large metacentric hight, and a natural rolling period of about 3-5 seconds, and are almost impossible to top over. But, due to their slender hulls, their natural pitching frequency is large, and a catamaran may decide it likes to do some wave-diving. This "increase" is the waterplane area causes a drastic increase in the longitudinal righting arm, and the ship will "shoot" out of the wave, smacking all passengers to the ceiling, if conditions are right. This so-called "bow-diving" is thus not welcomed. In a static situation the ship will turn back to o degrees when the righting arm is still positive. At a certain point that arm will be zero (Angle of vanishing stability). Mostly, when a deck hits the water, the metacentric height plummets down (Fastly decreasing polar inertial moment of the water area (honestly!)) and this is why some freeboard is advisable. Even ships with large initial righting arms at 0 degrees can capsise quickly when a deck is too close to the waterline This is exactly what happened to the British "Captain", designed by Cowder Coles (Coles turret), who did not understand this, and ignored advise from experienced ship designers. Also, when an opening in the ship hull gets below the waterline, the ship may founder (Wasa). This is why elevators in car-ferry's leading to the decks below the cardecks do not stop at those cardecks. In a dynamic situation, a ship rolling with some speed will not right itself immediately but will continue to roll a few degrees further. This dynamic stability too is an important factor, and dependent on the the curve of righting arms. Ships with the same angle of vanishing stability may show very different behaviour. A ships with the larger righting arm will return faster to it's original position, while the other has already capsised. To return to the original question, the experiment wiht weights is indeed an inclining experiment. As your underwater-hull remains more or less the same, and your centre of gravity has moved, tests are warmly recommended. You can also do experiments to determine the natural rolling frequency by having some friends run like mad from one side of the ship to the other until the ships starts to roll. In contrast to the inclining test, this is a dynamic situation, and if your boat is not large, you may turn turtle. Such are the dangers of practising science. You can check displacement by measuring the draught of the ships bow and stern (That's why they paint those odd numbers there) and compare these draughts to your lines drawing. From this drawing you can make a Carene diagram, which gives you stability, location of centre of buoyancy, displacement, etc as a function of the draught. I could write a small article for the Warship site with pictures if someone is interested enough. I was planning to write one on ship waves systems too, with that 39.5 degree bowwave angle I mentioned earlier. Evert-Jan Foeth -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: CBNJBB62@aol.com Subject: Re: Carrier deck markings Dear Sir: Concerning the color of the stripes and deck colors on prewar USN carriers. I know of a reliable source. Back in 1940 a movie called DIVE BOMBER starring Fred MacCurry, Errol Flynn and I think Joseph Cotten used the ENTERPRISE in prewar colors as a movie location but I don't have a copy. But I recall that the letters were in yellow zinc chromate and the deck appeared redish-brown in the distance as but as the plane with a mounted camera for a landing sesquence closed in it changed to a wood color definitely a strain. I don't know if this is still rentable. Maybe this can help. Craig Bennett -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: Carrier deck names As regards the color of the letters and stripes, I just spoke with my partner, Randy Short. ALL the references we've ever seen indicates they were yellow, period. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "Mike Leonard" Subject: Re: Revell LSD? An article in a recent issue of the Flagship, put out by the Norfolk Naval Station, mentioned that a couple of German gentlemen were contracted by Revell to get extensive photographs of a new ship, USS Carter Hall (LSD 50), for a future ship model. Will be interesting to see if this ever happens. Mike Alexandria, VA USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Mike Leonard" Subject: Re: Depth Charge Color Alan Lindstrom asked >> What color were depth charges painted on US DDs during WW2. Were they just gray (or what?), or were they painted to match the camo? << They might have been painted a standard color at the factory and then repainted on the ship to fit a particular camo scheme, if need be. I believe the depth charges on the Kidd (DD 661) in Baton Rouge are currently painted Navy Blue to match the hull. Mike Alexandria, VA USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: ECammeron@aol.com Subject: Re: USS William D. Porter On Page 43 of 'Fletcher Class Destroyers' by Alan Raven, there is an overhead shot of William D. Porter from astern taken during trials in Sept 43. You can't make out the Paint Measure, but you can get a pretty good idea of how she was fitted as built. She has two twin 40-mm mounts, one between Mounts 53 and 54, and one on the fantail. By the time she was sunk, she had five twin 40-mm. But the upgrade of AA armament was progressive. First, the fantail twin was removed, (in most cases), and replaced by two mounts abeam the after stack. Later, the two single 20-mm forward of the bridge were replaced by twin 40-mm. Raven discusses briefly the wartime modifications prior to the 1945 AA upgrades. Just wish he would have covered the modifications in more detail. Eugene Cammeron -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "Frank and Carol Berger" Subject: Re: Ms 32/14D The Floating Drydock, Kresgeville, PA 18333, carries many of the Measures on individual 8 1/2 x 11 sheets. The last time I purchased one, it was $2.00. Ms 32/14D is available on sheet CF-130. They also have a listing of ships that describes what ships wore which of the Ms 31/32/33 designs. As a note, sheet CF-130 is listed as Ms 3_/14D, indicating an open measure, i.e. one that could be applied in any of the three measures. Floating Drydock also has two volumes on WWII US Navy Camouflage that are very helpful. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: b29@ix.netcom.com Subject: Re: CV Deck markings I misspoke when I said the decks were "painted" maroon. They were of of course stained. As for the yellow markings, Robert Stern in THE LEXINGTON CLASS CARRIERS, says that the markings were orange, but other sources have said yellow. In a movie, I think it was DIVE BOMBER, made before the war they had color footage of several U.S. CV's and the decks were clearly maroon with yellow markings. Finally, as to Hornet, I have some dim recollection of a photo somewhere with markings HRNT. It doesn't really make sense tho. The ship was commissioned in Oct. '41, and by then the markings were being removed. It is possible that they were put on just before the Navy changed it's position on the subject. That kind of thing happened often. Paul Jacobs -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Marc Flake Subject: USS Oregon Glenn: You probably want the Glencoe Oregon. You can buy it off the Glencoe internet site, or any number of internet hobby shops. It's selling for about $20, depending on where you look. I've built it and it requires a little work, but I love the way it looks on the shelf. Good luck. Marc -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Growlrr@aol.com Subject: GLENCOE Oregon Oops - Sorry guys It was a Glencoe Oregon I was looking for, not a Lindberg (Thanks Shaya) - I keep getting the state of the art model companies confused - Anyway I think I'm am on to one (and thanks Tom)... Glenn -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume