Subject: SMML10/12/98VOL390 Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 00:25:59 shipmodels@tac.com.au --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Depth Charges 2: Re: National SMML Model Build 3: Re: Bismarck's Yellow Turrets 4: Re: carrier deck names 5: Hobby shop in Israel 6: Hobby shop in Israel 7: Re: GLENCOE USS OREGON 8: Re: Inclining 9: Wreck of Graf Spee 10: Re: Dido Model/Naval Books 11: Re: CV Deck Markings 12: Re: CV Deck markings 13: Re: Dutch Destroyers --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Re: LSM kit 2: Re: Oregon --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "mkrumrey" Subject: Re: Depth Charges After reading all the opinions etc., about depth charges, I decided to look in my sole reference, Squadron's "Fletcher DDs In Action". The photo's indicate that there is no rhyme or reason to depth charge painting. On some pages the depth charges are a light color, almost matching the deck, other's are are a dark color on a light deck. I think the modeler would have "Carte Blanche", and "artistic license" in painting them whatever color he/she felt like, (within reason, of course) As the depth charges were a weapon, as has been stated before, they would have been used at a rapid rate. And yes, there were paint and chip details, but the prudent Bosun, would have his people chipping and painting the ship, not something that wasn't going to be around very long. But like everything, there are exceptions, and I'm sure on an unhappy ship, with a tyranical "Boats", or a wayward seaman, the depth charges could have been painted to match the scheme. Mark Krumrey --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Rick Heinbaugh Subject: Re: National SMML Model Build I'm all for the idea of a bunch of us entering 1/700 scale Fletchers at the 1999 IPMS Nationals. I think it would be great fun, just to have non-ship folks see the range of different variations we would do, without orchestration. I'm concerned about whether I'll be able to get to the other corner of the country for the show, but we already have a volunteer on record to help receive packages at that end. And Essex-class entries for the Y2K Nationals sounds good, too. Rick Heinbaugh Seattle, WA --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: DKrakow105@aol.com Subject: Re: Bismarck's Yellow Turrets >> This is very interesting. I also spoke to a German Bismarck "expert" who is in contact with Mr. Statz. He told me this year that Mr. Statz is insisting on that the turrets never were yellow at any time. << Well, here we are again right where we started!! Has anyone here spoken to Herr Statz personally? There is an annual meeting of Bismarck survivors, maybe someone, (Lens? Jan?) would like to be there next year to ask questions on our behalf. Unfortunately, I will be back in the USA then. Cheers David Krakow --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Michael C. Smith" Subject: Re: Yellow Bismarck turrets I wonder if the yellow that is being referred to is some type of primer paint, like the green or rust colored primers used elsewhere? Even if it wasn't used at the shipyard, maybe when the turrets were being repainted before the ship sortied the crew reprimed the whole thing (rather than spot priming) before applying the final coat of paint. Reminds me of repainting old houses - sometimes when an old house's paint is checked to see what the "original" color of the house was, it turns out to be dark brown, and for a number of years people thought that a century ago most houses were painted dark brown for that reason. Then research showed that that first layer was actually a common primer sometimes called "Spanish Brown." So to get the true color, if that's the first layer of pigment, you look at the second layer. Maybe that's the case here, and the survivor didn't know that's what he was looking at. Did the survivor say anything about "when" it was painted and how it was "washed off." Does anyone know if this might have been an attempt to copy some other ship as a form of concealment? If they were painting the Graf Spee's superstructure green, maybe there was a reason for painting Bismarck's turrets yellow. Speaking of which, you need to visit the Bismarck at the bottom of the Atlantic on Bob Ballard's "Titanic" CD - lots of info on the story of the Bismarck's sortie, and some fascinating opportunities to explore the wreck. I love this list - I'm having so much fun! I just wish I had time to actually build anything. Michael Smith Marshall, Texas --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "Michael C. Smith" Subject: Re: carrier deck names Michael Czibovic wrote: >> I still have doubts about the Hornet. There is a low-angle bow quarter shot of Hornet in the book Flattops and Fledglings that barely shows the letters. The individual letters can't be read, but there appear to be four of them, so I lean toward HRNT. (snip) The interesting thing about these letters was that their location doesn't seem to be standardized for any of the ships wearing them. Some were on the forward end of the flight deck, some on the aft end, and some in the vicinity of one of the elevators. I don't think any had them at both ends, but I could be wrong. << Michael, The forward ends of these carriers' flight decks had a row of several rectangular lights inset in the flight deck, and the catapults make a sort of "T" near the front of the flight deck. Are you sure that what you're seeing isn't these things? They have the same spacing and blocky shape as the letters. On the other hand, this would have been the first time a carrier completed without flight decks letters in several years - maybe they just painted them on the gray deck in white letters just unsure how the Navy wanted it done, or for some other reason. Also, all the pictures I have seen show the names on both bow and stern - since the Ranger's aft elevator was very close to the stern (for that matter, so was the YKTN, EN and Hornet's, is that the elevator position you're talking about? The exception is the Lex and Sara, and I think that's because the extreme bow was too narrow. Finally, we've talked about flight deck identification, and probably we've all seen the stack marking on the Lex and Sara and the Yorktown, but just FYI for a time the Lex and Sara also carried markings on top of their turrets for identification - some type of black stripe on the Sara, if I remember right. Michael Smith Marshall, Texas --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: roberto.paredes@cl.unisys.com Subject: Hobby shop in Israel Hi everyone, I need to know some hobby shop in Israel, specially in Tel-Aviv and Jerusalen. Anybody help me? Roberto. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: SantMin@aol.com Subject: Re: GLENCOE USS OREGON The Glencoe OREGON kit is fine as a starter but it has many problems, some of them serious. If you want to do a good job of it I suggest that you find some back issues of model magazines in which I outlined the problems and how to fix them. Most dealt wit converting OREGON to MASSACHUSETTS but most of the problems need to be corrected for any of the three sisters (INDIANA being the other). Articles appeard in: SCALE SHIP MODELER October 1990 FINE SCALE MODELER July 1992 Kalbmach Publishing Book "Scale Model Detailing" (basically a reprint of the FSM article) The biggest problem is that the kit has a deck that was never on any of the three ships, it closes off the tops of the hammock berthings and should not be there. Cheers, Bob Santos --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Norman Samish Subject: Re: Inclining This article is interesting and informative. It may be a little hard to understand for neophytes. I have to guess at the meaning of longitudinal righting arm, metacentric height, rolling period, natural rolling frequency, natural pitching frequency, fastly decreasing polar inertial moment of the water area, and Carene diagram. If you write more articles of this nature and include definitions of the above at the Warship site, please let us know when they appear. Thanks. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Alan Lindstrom" Subject: Wreck of Graf Spee I was looking at a photo of the Graf Spee after it was scuttled and the fires were out. While water was over forecastle deck, most of the forward 11" turret was out of the water. A while back I saw this documentary where some guy was diving the Graf Spee wreck and recovered a 5.9" gun which is ok with me, but the show indicated that the wreck was under about 50 feet of water. Does anyone know what happened to the Graf Spee after it was scuttled? How much of the ship was removed by the scrappers? How did it get so deep if the forcastle deck was only under a few feet of water after it was sunk? How complete is the wreck? The documentary showed computer generated images which indicated that the wreck is still fairly complete. Alan Lindstrom --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Steve Sobieralski" Subject: Re: Dido Model/Naval Books The Dido hull offered by Cleanline is actually produced by a British company called Fleetscale, which produces a wide range of mostly WW2 hulls and semi-kits in 1/128 scale. About eight years ago I built a model of HMS Hood (about 78" long) from their hull and used their main armament and funnel set and some fittings, basically scratchbuilding everything else. Quality was pretty good, particularly the hull, main guns and funnels. Some of the fittings were not quite as good - the searchlighlights in particular had a "toy-like" quality. The pIan sheet that was provided was also inaccurate, the length of the drawing, which was also 1/128th, did not match the length of the kit hull. Hood was their first offering and they now produce quite a comprehensive line of fittings and other components. I don't know if Cleanline is still around but a company called in the US, Loyalhanna Dockyard at: http://www.modelersboatyard.com/loyalhanna/ appears to offer most of the Fleetscale line. Speaking of Dido, the recent thread regarding favorite naval books did not mention one of my favorites which is HMS Ulysses by Alistair Maclean (The Guns of Navaronne). It tells the story of a fictional Dido class cruiser (Ulysses) escorting a convoy on the Murmansk Run. Its a great read, in my opinion right up there with The Cruel Sea and Das Boot. It was one of Maclean's first books, published in the fifties I think, and, unlike some of his later more commercial work, rings very true. Note from Shane: I read HMS Ulysses a long time ago & would recommend it to anyone, as well as Douglas Reeman. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: ECammeron@aol.com Subject: Re: CV Deck Markings The book 'That Gallant Ship', by Robert Cressman, has a photo of YORKTOWN at NOB, Norfolk Sept 9, 1941 in Measure 12 WITH SOME or MOST OF THE DECK STRIPING, but no CV markings (YKTN) fore or aft. See Page 39. Also Page 6 has a June 1937 picture of her fitting out with the deck striping and YKTN in place. Lots of other great pictures also. Eugene Cammeron -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: b29@ix.netcom.com Subject: Re: CV Deck markings While we are on the subject of deck markings, there is the question about exactly what color the "maroon" stain really was. "Maroon", so I'm told, is actually a brownish-purple color. But the deck stain is always described by observers as reddish-brown. Floquil made a paint in its' Marine Colors line called "Navy Brown" #41 A/N which was reddish-brown and which looked correct when compared to color photos of the decks. But this line has now been discontinued. In general I think that the closest color that anyone can universally find that seems to fit the bill is "Boxcar red" which can be found in any hobby shop that sells model train stuff. The Floquil "Navy Brown" seemed darker than Boxcar red to me, but otherwise the shade seems right. Having done a couple of model carrier decks using the "Navy Brown" and yellow markings, I can attest that the yellow makes a striking contrast and thus the marking are very clear and highly visible. For an example, check out my model of the LEXINGTON on the 1250 page of the Warship site. Note also, the Neptun model of the ship pictured in the site. The deck color of the Neptun model is close to pumpkin color, and is definitely too light. Paul Jacobs -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) Delivered-To: shipmodels@tac.com.au From: HDente@aol.com Subject: Re: Dutch Destroyers Try Mini Marine International's web site through the ship modeler's links list at: http//:www.Nautica/Pointers/Shipmodels.html. They are a Dutch club and supplied me with nice plans of Tromp and De Ruyter last year. Also try General Dutch Shipmodelers Assn, Burg De Geerplantooen, 3433 B D Nieuwegein, Netherlands. There was a general arrangement drawing in the old pocket book on the Dutch Navy in WW 2, published by Ian Allen I think---I have a copy --somewhere. Now, can anyone help with plans of the Finnish costal defense ships Vainamoinen and Ilmarinen? Regards, Harry Dente --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: ALROSS2@aol.com Subject: Re: LSM kit As Dave Baker mentioned on SMML a few weeks ago, I'm coming out with a 1/192 scale resin LSM kit this Spring and I'd like to get some feedback. Question: should it be full hull or waterline? I'm leaning towards waterline, as I suspect most builders will do a diorama, but am open to suggestions. The kit will follow standard resin practice - detailed resin hull, britannia fittings, and photoetched details. Al Ross --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "David P. Judy III" Subject: Re: Oregon Glenn, I have two, so I'll let one go for $20.00+shipping. Dave Judy --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume