Subject: SMML11/12/98VOL391 Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 00:30:10 shipmodels@tac.com.au --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: CV Deck markings 2: USS Lex/Sara carrier toys 3: Re: Carrier Deck Names 4: Re: Graf Spee (was BISMARCK turret tops) 5: Re: BISMARCK turret tops 6: Yellow Turrets (No new info, though) 7: Re: Inclining 8: Re: Old Lindberg Kits 9: Re: The wreck of the Graf Spee. 10: Re: cv deck markings & Graf Spee 11: Re: LSM 12: Re: LSM kit opinion 13: Re: National SMML Model Build 14: Re: Hobby shop in Israel 15: Re: Wreck of Graf Spee 16: Re: Dutch Destroyers 17: Re: CV Deck Markings 18: Re: "Modern Ship Design", etc. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Extras--again 2: Looking for Warship, Volume XI 3: Books for sale --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Michael C. Smith" Subject: Re: CV Deck markings I did a 1/700 December 1940 Yorktown and used a "rust" probably Testor's Model Master - can't remember the mfg for sure - for the flight deck. It does make a beautiful contrast with the chrome yellow striping. Floating Drydock had a color for it which was browner than the rust - I matched mine to a color photo of the Enterprise from "Dive Bomber" that is part of the Enterprise exhibit at the Naval Aviation Museum in Pensacola. Given that I got the peacetime gray way wrong (I used Testors Light Gray FS 36375, I think it is - almost white) the flight deck was only a minor sin. Michael Smith Marshall, Texas --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Michael C. Smith" Subject: USS Lex/Sara carrier toys I thought some list members might be interested in this, although it doesn't quite qualify as plastic resin or models. Several years ago I built large (2' long - 6" wide - 2.25" thick hulls) "toys" of the Lex and Sara out of 1x4 and 2x4's. The island was a silhouette cut out of a 1x6 with a jig or scroll saw, the turrets were little scrap pieces with 1/4" dowels for gun barrels, and the flight deck was a sheet of 1/4" plywood. The hull was a large oval 2x4 hollowed out on the port side so they'd float flat with the island attached. The toys were pianted with bright red undersides, light gray (actually white) camouflage and stained red mahogany flight decks with chrome yellow striping and arresting gear, catapults, portholes, etc, painted on using a paint marker so my younger cousins could play with their little metal toy planes on them in the pool. The foremast and yardarm were 1/2" thick wooden dowels so the kids could pick them up by the island or mast with their grubby little fingers and drag them around. Polyurethane sealed so they could be cleaned easily and wouldn't absorb water in the pool. Would have made great toys, but their parents thought they were "models" and wouldn't let them play with them in the pool! They had to keep them on a shelf and only play inside. If anyone cares for the "plans" such as they are, please e-mail me privately and I'll get them to you - they're full scale but I'll scan them and reduce them (just in time for Christmas!). May redeem you with family members who think you only build these untouchable little models! Michael Smith Marshall, Texas --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: Carrier Deck Names USS SARATOGA and LEXINGTON carried theirs aft, on the very substantial flight deck round-down. The black stripe identifier referred to was a large vertical stipe carried down the middle of SARA's stack, while LEX had a broad black horizontal stripe around the top of the funnel. Also, as I've mentioned before, that prewar flight deck color was not maroon; it was mahogany stain over whatever wood (teak or Douglas fir) was used for the deck surface. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: Graf Spee (was BISMARCK turret tops) >> If they were painting the Graf Spee's superstructure green, << That's an error foisted on us by various model companies who got their box art wrong. The camo pattern on GS was a homemade dark gray mixed by the ship's company from standard hull gray and black, as was recently discussed on this list. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: BISMARCK turret tops On the basis of the Admiralty signal I've cited previously (we're talking primary source material here), and those survivors who purport to remember, I'm going with yellow tops of the turrets and secondary battery gunhouses for BISMARCK at the time of her final action. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "Foeth" Subject: Yellow Turrets (No new info, though) The turrets were allegedly painted yellow on the 26th of may 1941, one day before her sinking. If they were yellow, they would serve as markers for the Luftwaffe, as to recognise the ship as german. German ships were to have yellow turrets for operation Barbarossa. Washing off was a result of the heavy seas By the way, the Graf Spee was never painted green! (Dark grey) Evert-Jan Foeth --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: KoopmaFS@utrc.utc.com Subject: Re: Inclining Norman Samish wrote: >> I have to guess at the meaning of longitudinal righting arm, metacentric height, rolling period, natural rolling frequency, natural pitching frequency, fastly decreasing polar inertial moment of the water area, and Carene diagram. << Norman, Yeah it was kinda confusing. I hope this helps or confirms your guesses, and I'll post it for others asking themselves the same questions... A RIGHTING ARM is the horizontal distance between the center of gravity and the center of buoyancy. Longitudinal righting arm is the distance when the vessel is pitching fore and aft, lateral is when the vessel is heeling side to side. The METACENTRIC HEIGHT: to find the Metacentric height, draw a line vertically through the center of gravity while the vessel is upright. Now heel the vessel (and imaginary line) to the desired angle and draw a vertical line through the center of buoyancy. Where the two lines intersect is the metacentre (note that it changes position as the vessel changes heel). The measured distance from the metacentre and the center of gravity is the metacentric height for that angle of heel. The ROLLING PERIOD: Take a toy boat and put it in the sink or bath tub. Take the top of the boat and push it over to one side and let go. Watch as the boat rolls upright, then past vertical over to the other side, and then rolls back to the side it started from. The time that it takes to go from one side to the other and back again is the rolling period. NATURAL ROLLING FREQUENCY: Notice that the toy boat in the previously mentioned experiment, when left for certain amount of time without waves in the tub, will eventually stop rocking. Its rolling motion was "dampened" out. Natural rolling frequency is the frequency with which waves will strike a ship and the ships' roll will not dampen out, the rolling instead gets worse to the point where the ship may roll completely over. I've had the opportunity to listen to a personalized account from a tin-can sailor who experienced this phenomena first-hand during a relatively nice day in the Pacific. NATURAL PITCHING FREQUENCY is the same concept applied to the fore and aft direction. FASTLY DECREASING POLAR INERTIAL MOMENT OF THE WATER AREA: I recognize and understand the meanings of each of the components in this phrase, but having spent a seven year period working as a naval-architect/marine-engineer, I can't say I've seen them used in that combination before. My dad is also in that occupation and he specializes in stability analysis, I'll ask him to see if he has a simple definition for us. (As an interesting aside, the first job I did while working for him was drafting the concrete block placement diagrams for a casino barge inclining test.) CARENE DIAGRAM: This is another one that escapes me, unless he's actually referring to a careening chart (also more commonly referred to as a stability curve). These plot the righting arm versus the heel angle, from 0 to 180 degrees. Well...I THINK I've got four out of six... Regards and Happy Holidays Fritz Koopman --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "John S. Platt" Subject: Re: Old Lindberg Kits Do any of you have idea where I may get hold of the old Lindberg kit of the minesweeper. Thank you in advance. John S. Platt. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: JohnVCP@aol.com Subject:Re: The wreck of the Graf Spee. Several years ago I downloaded some photos (six I believe) of the Spee that were taken after she scuttled and the fires were out. According to the book "Graf Spee, The Life & Death of a Raider" by Dudley Pope (Published 1957 by Lippencott) she "nosed her bow into the mudbank" near the "Reccalda pontoon" (?) that marked the entrance to the channel to Buenos Aires. The photos in this book (one showing a view off the port bow with some smoke still coming from the forward superstructure and one showing a view off her stern port quarter with smoke coming from where the stack was located) depict a vessel that has "bottomed". The photos that I have were supposedly taken by this gentleman's father just a few days after she scuttled and show her with her maindeck (most of it) above water. The stern is blasted upward and the 11"' turret is toppled aft, with its barrels pointing almost straight down. Since the report by the RN Attache (Lt. Cassells) said that the aft magazine had blown-up, flinging the after turret upwards, then she would have had her bottom blown-out and sank almost immediately. Photos taken "several days later" show no further sinking! I also saw the TV show depicting the salvage of one of her 5.9" guns and that she was 50 ft (?) below the surface. If anyone is interested in the photos send me your email address and I'll forward them. John --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: CBNJBB62@aol.com Subject: Re: cv deck markings & Graf Spee Dear Sir: concerning the carrier markings. One should remember that Lexington received a square bow in 1936 while the sistership Saragota didn't until W.W.II. So bow letters couldn't be possible as compared to the other carrier classes of the day. As far as Graf Spee is concerned I only have this in Breyer's Battleships and Battle Cruisers 1905-1970 it lists the Graf Spee as being broken up in October 1942 and was visible for 25 years afterwards. Maybe she was cut in half for safety reasons and remains weren't removed. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Bradford Chaucer Subject: Re: LSM ALROSS2@aol.com wrote: >> As Dave Baker mentioned on SMML a few weeks ago, I'm coming out with a 1/192 scale resin LSM kit this Spring and I'd like to get some feedback. Question: should it be full hull or waterline? I'm leaning towards waterline, as I suspect most builders will do a diorama, but am open to suggestions. The kit will follow standard resin practice - detailed resin hull, britannia fittings, and photoetched details. << Make it available as both. I generally prefer full hull. Regards, Bradford Chaucer --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: louellet@uism.bu.edu Subject: Re: LSM kit opinion From: ALROSS2@aol.com wrote: >> As Dave Baker mentioned on SMML a few weeks ago, I'm coming out with a 1/192 scale resin LSM kit this Spring and I'd like to get some feedback. Question: should it be full hull or waterline? << Al, Why not offer both full hull and waterline options? I like to see the whole thing that I am modeling. Others may want to do a diorama as you suggested. Larry Ouellette Quincy, Massachusetts, USA Volunteer, USS Salem (CA 139) http//:www.uss-salem.org/ (A non-profit organization) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: James Corley Subject: Re: National SMML Model Build From: Rick Heinbaugh >> I'm all for the idea of a bunch of us entering 1/700 scale Fletchers << I was thinking why should we limit ourselves to FLETCHERs, why not any 1/700 WW2 USN DD......or are we just after any FLETCHER (DD, DDR, DM, DDE, etc) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: James Corley Subject: Re: Hobby shop in Israel From: roberto.paredes@cl.unisys.com >> I need to know some hobby shop in Israel, specially in Tel-Aviv and Jerusalen. << Nothing was in Jerusalem in 1996, other than the occaisional model in a store. There is a shop in Tel Aviv though, a better ship selection than many of the shops here in the states, too. I'll email my friend at find out exactly where it is. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: James Corley Subject: Re: Wreck of Graf Spee From: "Alan Lindstrom" >> How did it get so deep if the forcastle deck was only under a few feet of water after it was sunk? << Being sunk in a river delta, even the offshore part, is not good for wreck stability. Having dived in similar areas, the bottom is very loose and your feet/hands do tend to settle about the same as they do in sand/surf. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Sanartjam@aol.com Subject: Re: Dutch Destroyers For what it's worth, there are a number of fairly good photographs of the Isaac Sweers (in camouflage) taken in at Malta in 1941after she and some British destroyers had attacked a convoy bound for North Africa; if you want, I'll dig them out. There is a fairly good photograph of the ZH1 in the revised edition of Whitley's book on German Destroyers of World War II. I'm not aware of any plans of the ZH1 (other than those already suggested), but there is a small scale drawing of the Isaac Sweers (as completed in Britain) in Conway's All the World's Fighting Ships 1922-1946. Finally, not too long ago Christian Schmidt in Munich carried a Dutch book that seems to be entitled the Dutch equivalent of "Dutch Warships of World War II." I don't know if the book is in print still, but you could check with Christian Schmidt. I haven't seen the book, but it might have some useful information. Good luck! Art Nicholson Note from Shane Also try Warships International, Vol 1, 1988. This has an article titled "The Dutch Naval shipbuilding program of 1939". This has some nice photosof the ZH-1. I haven't read the article yet, so can't comment on content. Shane --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: b29@ix.netcom.com Subject: Re: CV Deck Markings There is a definite explanation for the way the deck markings were done: LEX, SARA and RANGER had their ID letters at the stern only. YORKTOWN and ENTERPRISE had theirs at bow and stern, at least for a time. I am unsure about HORNET, but if she had letters they could have been at bow and stern also. The reason is actually simple: YORKTOWN and ENTERPRISE had arresting gear at both bow and stern. The idea was that the ships could thus land planes over the bow or the stern. If you look at photos with the markings you'll note that the letters are placed to be read in opposite directions. That is if you were approaching from aft, the letters face you. And if you were approaching bow on, the letters were facing you. LEX, SARA and RANGER did not have provisions for landing bow on, so no letters were placed there. By the late 1930's, it became apparent that bow landings were not practicable, and the forward arresting gear was removed. The source of this information is U.S. FLEET CARRIERS OF WW II IN ACTION by R. Humble. It seems unlikely therefore that HORNET had bow arresting gear, or that she had letters on the bow, but I have nothing to confirm that. YORKTOWN and ENTERPRISE may have had the bow lettering removed at some point which could explain why there are some photos of the ships with only lettering at the stern. Paul Jacobs --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: RCClem@aol.com Subject: Re: "Modern Ship Design", etc. >> This article is interesting and informative. It may be a little hard to understand for neophytes. I have to guess at the meaning of longitudinal righting arm, metacentric height, rolling period, natural rolling frequency, natural pitching frequency, fastly decreasing polar inertial moment of the water area, and Carene diagram. << I like to ballast the hulls of my plastic kits with #6 lead shot so that they float correctly at the proper attitude and level. It helps me take natural looking photos of my models in the local pond. (I haven't figured out how to get my full hull resin kits to float yet. :) Anyway, my first attempt resulted in a model that bobbed, pitched and rolled like a cork, with way too much mass concentrated in the center of the hull. No angular inertia to slow down the motion. So my best attempt was when I reset the weights to the bow and stern and to each beam. Now it "plows" into "waves" and recovers more slowly from rolls in a much more natural manner. In my normal habit of finding resources after solving a problem myself, I bought the following two books that maybe were textbooks for Naval Academy students: "Fundamentals of Construction and Stability of Naval Ships"; 2nd Edition, by Thomas Gillmer; US Naval Institute, 1966. and "Modern Ship Design", by Thomas Gillmer; USNI, 1970. Do any of you recognize these texts? These texts go into great detail on static and dynamic actions and how different designs optimize for otherwise conflicting concerns. Complete with homework assignments! The most interesting sections for me were the damage control problems, which mostly used Gearing Destroyers as examples: "11-4. The USS Gearing has a displacement of 3100 tons in salt water. KG (vertical height of center of gravity) is 15.3 ft. She is holed in a compartment 35 ft. fore and aft by 15 ft. athartships so that the compartment is in free communication with the sea. One hundred tons of water enter the compartment. The Kg of the water is 6 ft and the center of gravity of the compartment is 8 ft. to starboard of the centerline. Plot the final stability curve. Answer: GM (metacentric height) = 4 ft 4 degree list to starboard 1.92 ft maximum righting arm at 40 degrees. Good junk for a land-locked mechanical engineer! Roger Clemens Hinsdale, Illinois (outside of Chicago) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: John Snyder Subject: Extras--again Well, I've done it again! I found three more dupes on the bookshelves last night (just GOTTA find some time to build a catalog so I quit buying things twice!), so am offering them for what I paid, and I'll pay postage: Model Art 1986, No.8, _Ships of the World: Italian Warships of World War 2_, softcover, 132pp, Japanese text, but photo captions identify ships in English, many photos, line drawings of main deck and elevation, 4 color paintings, maps of actions. New, $20.00 Model Art 1985, No.17, _French Warships of World War 2_, softcover, 140pp. Same description as above. New, $22.00 Model Art 1980, No.9, _British Warships of WW2_, softcover, 192pp. Same description as above. New, $22.00 John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys P.S. BTW, one I just got--and NOT a duplicate purchase: my very own 1929 Munsell Book of Color, the large volume, complete!! (Don't ask the price!) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Duane Fowler Subject: Looking for Warship, Volume XI Hello All, You guys have been a tremendous help in the past so I'll try again! I just received Warship 1992 in the mail last night. The only volume I am missing from the entire set is Warship, Volume XI. If anyone happens to have an extra copy or knows of a local bookstore that has one, I would be most appreciative to find out. These are great reference material and I would really like to complete my collection! Best regards, Duane Fowler --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: LRobin9900@aol.com Subject: Books for sale Hi Got these extras from my collection Thanks Skip Robinson NAVAL BOOKS 1. UNITED STATES SUBMARINE OPERATIONS in world war II T. Roscoe Naval Institute Press 1956 , Definitive book on Submarine Operations . 577pg Maps, operations, Pictures , Drawings etc. $25.00 2.. US.BATTLESHIPS in action Pt..2 Squadron / signal warships No4 50pg 1984 $7.00 3 ALLIANCE Submarine Anatomy of the ship Naval Institute Press 120pg 1986 Excellent highly detailed drawings and information $25.00 4. IOWA CLASS BATTLESHIPS Their design ,Weapons & Equipment Robert Sumrall 1988 195pg Lots of excellent detailed pictures and Drawings SUPERB BOOK. $35.00 5. KEYSTONE BATTLEWAGON USS. Pennsylvania (BB-38) 1983 43pg Pictorial Histories Drawings /Pictures Etc. $8.00 6. MOUNTAINEER BATTLEWAGON USS. West Virginia (BB-48) 1982 48pg Pictorial Histories $8.00 7. US. NAVY CRUSERS AT WAR 1941-45 Sea Classics Special Summer 1984 130pg Excellent condition $5.00 8. BATTLESHIPS AT WAR ! Sea Classics Special Fall 1984 130pg Excellent condition $5.00 9. US. BATTLSHIPS An illustrated design history Norman Friedman Naval Institute Press 1985 450pg Drawings , layouts , history Etc. $ 35.00 10. BATTLESHIPS United States Battleships in world War II Naval Institute Press 1984 3rd updated printing 300pg Excellent Drawings and photos of the later US.Battleships $35.00 11. SUPER CARRIERS Osprey color series 1986 many color photos 125pg Many Color photos $7.00 12. SEVENTH FLEET SUPER CARRIERS Osprey color Series 130pg 1987 Many Color photos $7.00 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume