Subject: SMML13/12/98VOL393 Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 00:36:41 shipmodels@tac.com.au --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Semper tedium - or whatever 2: That FLETCHER Idea 3: Graf Spee 4: Re: That FLETCHER Idea - the National SMML Model Build 5: Inclining on an article 6: Re: Dutch Destroyers 7: Overseas Money 8: Re: USS Iowa 9: Re: Modern Ship Design (SMML11/12/98Vol391) 10: General Colors and such 11: Re: Carrier Deck Markings 12: Re: YORKTOWN funnel markings 13: Decks Awash 14: That Fletcher Idea ... 15: Re: Isaac Sweers 16: Re: Isaac Sweers P.S. 17: Fletchers 18: HMS Vanguard Plans --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Re: Graf Spee photos --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Jens H. Brandal" Subject: Semper tedium - or whatever >> Always boring, << Not at all Evert-Jan. Being an engineer, I have a natural inclination to understand why and know how things work. This I have found is helpful when making assumptions and questioning "truths" about the subjects I am modelling. In order to understand we need knowledge - or to ask someone who knows. Jens ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: McKellar Subject: That FLETCHER Idea I shall visit my local hobby shop and choose my weapon.... Please refresh my memory...when do these need to be in Orlando? Mark --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: The Codes Subject: Graf Spee Hello shipmodels list, I signed on a few days ago. this sounds like a great list a newbie like myself can learn alot. Interesting about the Adm Graf Spee. Was her tower bridge removed sometime in the past ? If not this had to of stuck up from the main deck at least 50 ft. Was it sheered of due to wave/storm damage. I take it then that the ships hull is now buried in the mud...waiting for some future generation to find anew! regards Bill Code --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Michael Quan" Subject: Re: That FLETCHER Idea - the National SMML Model Build Okay John, the idea has been put forth; where do we sign up for this little endeavor? Are you or Mike Davis going to organize this "launch of a thousand ships" towards Orlando? Since the projected recreation of "Murderer's Row" is in Dallas Texas in 2000, I nominate Mike Davis (of the same city), as 'curator' for out of town entries! :-) Mike Quan Garland Texas --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "Foeth" Subject: Inclining on an article Dear SMML-ies, You might have noticed that in the posts on the inclining ships, some naval terms were thrown in by yours truly, which were unknown to a lot of subscribers, and which I failed to explain. I think it is a result, that after studying marine technology for 4.5 years, I wanted to actually use those terms. Secondly, after 4.5 years of pain and suffering, why should you be spared? Indeed not. But, I think these terms should be explained, and I do not intend to do that here, as I definitely need to have some pictures to accompany the explanations, as a picture can tell more than words, and can make seemingly difficult terms clear at a first glance. Ship stability really isn't very difficult, although a lot of naval terms are used, but every branch has it's own language. Nobody can understand a computer specialist either, but who complains about that (Perhaps a bad example)? So, I decided to write an article on ship geometry and stabilty, which could be placed on the Warship site, if the webmasters think it is okay. But I won't stop at stability, I intend to make it more general, and I have the following subjects in mind: Displacement according to Archimedes (also blockcoeffecients...) Static, Dynamic and Forced lift (normal hull/hydrofoil/hovercraft) Centres of Gravity and Buoyancy (including weights lifted by cranes) Metacentre and Righting arms Ship curves of stability Damage stability and liquid cargoes Ship Resistance Waves and Speed Elementary Ship motions Ships and Coefficients (Froude, Admiralty...comparing different warships of a single category the way they should (like Battleships)) Modeltesting Propellors and Cavitation Should anybody have some ideas/critique, don''t hesitate to tell me. I have some spare time during the hollidays, and I'll see how far I'll get. Evert-jan Foeth --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: N2FIX@aol.com Subject: Re: Dutch Destroyers Hi Crew. A few photos of the Callenburgh class destroyers are in the book "Schepen van de Koninklijke Marine in W.O. II", by Chris Mark, C1997, De Alk bv, Alkmaar, Holland. ISBN 90 6013 522 9. I picked up my copy at the Maritime Museum bookstore in Amsterdam this summer, so it should still be available. The "Isaac Sweers" photos are: starboard side incomplete at launching, a blurry port side profile off the English coast, port side quarter in camoflage at Malta, torpedo/tube closeup, and from crows nest looking forward. The "Gerard Callenburgh" is shown starboard side incomplete at launching and in a poor stern quarter shot while still on the ways. The photos are all referenced as to being from the "Instituut voor Mariteme Historie", in Den Hagg. hth, Bob Birmingham --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Gene Larson Subject: Overseas Money A few solutions to sending small funds overseas from looking at it on the US side of the pond, besides using a credit card which is not possible in private transactions, are: 1. The American Automobile Association has a money exchange service. It is small, and limited to only a few countries, but cash can be obtained. They have what is called "tip packs" that can be purchased at obviously a higher rate than the official exchange. These tip packs are designed to permit a traveler to have a little foreign cash upon arrival in a country to handle small expenses and tips until a money exchange can be found. We here in the US are not as fortunate as the UK and countries on the continent where there are money exchanges on nearly every corner and in every bank. Don't ask why, I don't know. 2. Most "International" airports in the US have money exchanges. 3. From the other viewpoint a US purchaser can send US funds with enough extra so the seller can exchange the money locally. Also the foreign purchaser can go to one of the numerous money exchanges and obtain US funds to send. All the above require that cash be sent, but of the millions of envelopes traveling back an forth what is the probability that one innocent looking envelope will be stolen? And, are we not talking about small amounts? Robert Lockie is correct in his statement that to obtain a check in foreign currency is very expensive. We have continuous problems with dues from overseas members of the NRG. We do not have credit card capibility due to the high service cost which will not be reduced even for a not-for-profit. It is not fair to our members to reduce our income, and therefore our services in order to support a credit card company. Perhaps the odds are in favor of sending small amounts of cash in the mail. The agreement, of course, would have to be on an individual basis. Gene Larson, Alexandria, Virginia mailto:genenrg@Naut-Res-Guild.org Nautical Research Guild, Inc. http://www.Naut-Res-Guild.org "A non-profit, tax exempt, educational organization with international membership, dedicated to maritime research and accurate ship model building." --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: CBNJBB62@aol.com Subject: Re: USS Iowa Dear Sir: I am building an old USS IOWA -BB-61 Revell kit copyright 1959 and it provides the masts and radar for the Korean War. I have 2 questions A. The USN had adopted helicopters after W.W.II what type of helicopter did they use on her for their coastal bombardments of Korea. B: The Iowa was painted in peacetime colors during Korea decks were bare wood except on top of the turrets, upper level decks and at the bow where there was a steel deck. I'm thinking possible haze gray for the steel decks and dark gray for the the turret tops. Well boys(Shane notes: & girls too :-) ) got any ideas. Craig Bennett --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "David & Alicja Lombard" Subject: Re: Modern Ship Design (SMML11/12/98Vol391) >> "Fundamentals of Construction and Stability of Naval Ships"; 2nd Edition, by Thomas Gillmer; US Naval Institute, 1966. << I attended SUNY Maritime College, and we used that a little for a Static Stability course. It's good as an intro, as it doesn't require a Naval Architectural background. Principles of Naval Architecture (PNA) published by SNAME was the main text, and I occasionally see them in used book stores. It's a big ol' green book. Also useful could be: Rawson, K.J, and Tupper, E.C, "Basic Ship Theory", Longman, 1968 and 1976 (two volumes) Vol 1 of the later edition is concerned with static stability and construction, Vol 2 with powering and dynamics. Anyone interested in Ship Motions, with a suitable engineering math background, could take a look at: Bhattacharyya, Rameswar, "Dynamics of Marine Vehicles", John Wiley & Sons, 1978 At the time, it was the best comprehensive reference, and did a fairly good job with ship motions and wave spectra (my area of professional activity when I worked in the industry). Now I work in CAE software. David Lombard Rossmoor, Orange County, CA --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "R.S. Millar" Subject: General Colors and such Hey guys/gals: I think this topic is covered regularly and to death, but hey, I'm a moron! First, I'm not an accuracy freak. I don't go to great lengths to get the deck color on a CG-47 "just perfect": if it looks good to me, then it's good enough. BUT: I'm looking for some opinions here. I've been working for some time on a rather formidable project: USS Enterprise (CVN-65), New Jersey (c.1984), and Ticonderoga all on the same shelf. And right below that, a Nichimo Yamato (I finally found Skulski's book and am waiting by the mailbox every afternoon...). The Tico is complete, the 'E' is maybe 50%, the NJ is still in the box, and the Yamato is ready for hull paint (ie., the decks are mostly installed). Here's my problem: I'd like some opinions on whether, for the modern US ships, the bottom color should be the same on all ships? I imagine there's a very specific specification (!) for this color, but I'm really looking for thoughts on what would LOOK good. Same question for the overall hull and superstructures. I haven't yet developed the cajones to practice weathering one of my "masterpieces" (such as they are...), so my ships usually appear brand-new. Maybe now is the time to start? Also, any truth to the rumors that Yamato's bottom was actually GREEN???? Thanks, and Happy Holidays to all! Randy --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: b29@ix.netcom.com Subject: Re: Carrier Deck Markings We've had really good dialog on this subject. I'm going to try summarizing what we have learned to date: 1. Pre-war deck color was a mahogany stain. This was a dark reddish-brown. 2. ID letters and deck stripes etc. were chromate yellow and were located at the ends of the flight deck. 3. ID letters were: a. LANGLEY: none b. LEXINGTON: LEX c. SARATOGA: SARA d. RANGER: RNGR e. YORKTOWN: YKTN f. ENTERPRISE: EN g. WASP: WASP h. HORNET: HNT (unconfirmed) 4. On the YKTN, and EN arresting gear was put at both bow and stern, and as a consequence ID letters were placed at both bow and stern, facing outboard. Both WASP and HNT also had arresting gear forward. No one has found any photos of WASP with ID letters, but it appears from one photo that HNT had them when commissioned, and these letters were bow and stern, which would indicate that the gear was aboard. Although one source, U.S. FLEET CARRIERS OF WW II IN ACTION by Humble, says that the gear was removed pre-war, the available evidence would seem to indicate otherwise, as this type of arrangement was added to a number of ESSEX Class ships. When LEX's deck was widened in 1936 forward arresting gear was added. If I missed anything, please add it. Now, I have additional material, all of which comes from THE LEXINGTON CLASS CARRIERS by Robert Stern: According to this source, ALL pre-war U.S. CV's except LANGLEY had arresting gear fore and aft, but only the LEX and SARA "had the turbo-electric drive which allowed them to go as fast astern as forward." According to Stern, LEX had her gear added when the forward deck was widened in 1936. SARA was to have the same done, but her refits were repeatedly delayed until finally the deck was widened in 1941. At that time forward arresting gear was added to SARA as well. The forward arresting gear was rarely used, and in July 1943 OpNav made a "blanket recommedation" that all forward arresting gear on all CV's be removed. Part of SARA's was dismantled at sea in late '43, the remainder at Puget Sound during a refit in '44. Although Stern says that ALL pre-war CV's, except LANGLEY had forward gear, I do not believe that LEX, SARA or RANGER ever had ID letters painted forward. No photos that I know of, and there are plenty of these three ships, show letters forward. If ANYONE can provide evidence to the contrary, that would be welcome, as that is really critical for proper model building. I also want to add that I think that this has been a valuable exercise in the exchange of information on SMML. We have cleared up a lot of misconceptions, and I certainly have learned new things, and had my own errors corrected, which I appreciate. Paul Jacobs --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: YORKTOWN funnel markings I'd forgotten about the "Y" on her funnel too. As to whether it was carried outboard, well.... I checked every ready reference I've got on hand--'41 Janes, _That Gallant Ship_, Friedman, Terzibaschitsch, Humble, etc.--and they all have photos of the "Y" on the inboard side of the funnel, but none that show it outboard. Did she not have it there, or is it simply a case of hernot having been photographed from starboard while wearing it? I can't really say. Anyone else? John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: WVeigele@aol.com Subject: Decks Awash Norman, With respect to your inquiry about a DD heeling so her deck was awash, that need not be unusual. Many small ships experienced that condition. For example PC type Patrol Craft of WWII were designed to heel 110 degrees. Many of those ships reported "decks awash." I served on one that did. For information seethe book "PC Patrol Craft of World War II" at: http://members.aol.com/wveigele/pcraft/pcraft.htm Regards, Bill --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Ed Grune Subject: That Fletcher Idea ... All: If I remember the original proposal which was put forth ...to flood the 1999 IPMS Nats ship category and cause a split. The proposal was to do 1/700 Fletchers and the stated reason was the time required to complete a 1/700 scale contest quality model. If that's the goal then lets do it, but let's make sure what we're doing will be worthy of a split and the judges can justify the split.. Do we want to set the split goal to be WWII destroyers or do we want to do the Fletchers? I can see a table set aside which is full of round bridges and square bridges; early war, late war and post war; DDs, DDRs and FRAMS, Navy Blue, Haze Grey, and dazzle. I have a PRINGLE with a Kingfisher on a catapult which replaces the after torpedo tube launcher all ready to lead off with. If we can pull off a split at the '99 Convention - then we'll have a chance to put together a credible group entry for 2000. Speaking of 2000 in Dallas, I second Mike Quan's nomination of Mike Davis as the curator of Murderer's Row. Ed --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Sanartjam@aol.com Subject: Re: Isaac Sweers I am still trying to see if I can get the Isaac Sweers photos scanned into my computer so I can send them to the SMML photo site and e-mail them to someone. I should know by sometime tomorrow. In the meantime, I should mention that I've checked my library and there are two good photos of the Isaac Sweers in Peter C. Smith's "The Battles of the Malta Striking Forces," and one of the photos is also in Gregory Haines' "Destroyers at War." The two in Smith's book are credited to the Imperial War Museum, which could supply better prints than I could ever scan in and send to anyone. The photo in the Haines book is credited to "NHD/RNLN," whatever that means. Especially if I can't scan the photos in, I'd be happy to supply photocopies to anyone, who could then send the photocopies to the IWM to get prints (as in 8 X 10 glossies). I could swear I've seen photos of the Isaac Sweers somewhere else, but I can't lay my hands on them. Another note on Isaac Sweers. There have been several 1/1250 models of her as completed by the British, one by Argonaut and the other by, I think, Nordzee. I don't know if they are currently in production. Finally, a tribute to the Isaac Sweers. Aside from participating in the sinking of the Italian cruisers da Barbiano and di Giussano in December 1941, her captain received a DSO for the January 1941 towing of the torpedoed destroyer Gurkha away from burning oil so her crew could be saved. Sadly, the Isaac Sweers was torpedoed and sunk by U-431 in December 1942 while escorting a Torch convoy. Hope this helps and/or is interesting to someone.... Art Nicholson --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Sanartjam@aol.com Subject: Re: Isaac Sweers P.S. I knew this would happen... it finally occurred to me to look for photographs of the Isaac Sweers in "Sea Battles in Close-up: World War II (Volume II)" by Eric Grove. There is an article on the Malta striking forces, and the photograph of the Isaac Sweers that appeared in both the Peter Smith and Gregory Haines books is on page 71 and - lo and behold! - the caption lists Imperial War Museum negative no. GM203. I trust this will be helpful. Cheers, Art Nicholson ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: Jeff Herne Subject: Fletchers John, Since you've become the voice of the Nationals - Fletchers campaign, I guess I'll start the whole mess by adding the following: Skywave 1/700 Fletcher, USS Hailey DD-556, square bridge, in Ms 31/16d, with emergency AA fit, meaning quad 40mm amidships and no forward tubes. Tamiya 1/700 Fletcher, USS Radford, DD-446, round bridge, in Ms 32/3D with late war emergency AA fit, meaning quad 40mm amidships and no forward tubes. Both of these are underway, should be done well before Nats... PS: I have about 400 pics of Fletchers that did not end up in my Warship Perspectives book. If anyone requires assistance in the building of their Fletcher, let me know and I will post a bunch of pics up to the SMML picpost page. I can start taking requests immediately... Course, it would be alot easier to buy my book.... ;-) Jeff Herne SMML Archivist, etc. etc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: corinneray horney Subject: HMS Vanguard Plans Does anyone know where I can buy a set of plans for the last British Battleship HMS Vanguard. I am also interested in the plans for the "Cyclone" class of PC built by Bollinger here in the US. Any help would be appericiated. Thanks John Horney, Orlando Fl. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: Ives100@aol.com Subject: Re: USS Thresher/Sturgeon sail query In a message dated 98-12-12 06:05:55 EST, you write: >> Subject: USS Thresher/Sturgeon sail query << Oh, good, a sub question. I live for these.... The Thresher (SSN 593) class (renamed Permit upon loss of the Thresher) was the class preceding the Sturgeon (SSN 637) class. The sail sizes for these two classes were quite different. The Thresher/Permit class of subs had very small sails, to minimize their resistance and attempt to minimize the loss of speed over the preceding Skipjack SSN class due to their larger hull surface area (wet hull resistance is one factor in speed). The Thresher /Permit sails were criticized for their small size and lack of space to accomodate additional masts for radio ELINT. Also, the snorkel mast assembly was at the front of the sail, immediately forward of the open cockpit space, another design deficiency. As a consequence, the later Sturgeon class had a much enlarged sail. Most notably, the sails were markedly higher than Thresher/Permit class. These sails could accomodate more masts (6) and were strengthed for under ice artic operations. The price of all this was a progressive reduction in speed, as Skipjacks, Permits, and Sturgeons all used the same S5W reactor. The LA class regained speed by using a new reactor which produced greater power. I have drawings of both classes of subs, if you are interested. The exact size of the sails is not stated, but one could make a good estimate from these. Tom Dougherty ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: "Michael Czibovic" Subject: Deck markings I took off my glasses, got out a magnifier, and had another look at the HORNET photo in FLAT-TOPS AND FLEDGLINGS, and now have to admit that I must reverse my opinion. There are only three letters, HNT, located at both ends of the flight deck near the ramps. They are between two dashed flight deck stripes with no evidence of the broad stripe patterns worn by ENTERPRISE and YORKTOWN during the thirties. She is wearing Measure 12 in the photo which appears to have been taken during her sea trials. They may have been painted over once she entered service. Regarding WASP, I forgot to look at the plans I am using on a current project. These are the drawings available from The Floating Drydock and are copies of the builder's plans from the Bureau of Construction and Repair. They show a pattern of broad stripes and show the letters WASP near the ends of the flight deck, also near the ramps. I still haven't seen a photo of this ship wearing this identification. It could be that, considering the lenght of time needed to design and build an aircraft carrier, nobody bothered to remove them from the drawings. I have a caveat to throw in concerning mahogany deck color. How did that old gremlin "weathering" effect the color of the wood stain? Did the tint shift toward one color or another? This is one of those things that make history so interesting. For each question answered, more pop up to take its place. Have fun, Mike Czibovic La Mirada, CA ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: JohnVCP@aol.com Subject: Re: Graf Spee photos I have received quite a few requests for the photos that I mentioned and will get them out in a few days. However, when I replied to Michael C. Smith I received a reply (from AOL) that he was "unknown" at his email address. Would Michael please resend his email address to me in case it got "scrambled" in the transmission. Tnxs, John Note from Shane: John, have you thought of posting the pics to the SMML page? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume