Subject: SMML14/12/98VOL394 Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 23:45:07 shipmodels@tac.com.au ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Naval Ordnace Book info 2: Re: Fletcher build, the purpose Pt 1 & 2 3: Helicopters on Iowa during Korea 4: RN Depth Charges, 1936-40 5: Re: Admiral Class minesweepers. 6: USS Warrington 7: Buying abroad, and books wanted 8: Re: Inclining 9: Re: overseas money 10: Re: inclining 11: Re: CV deck markings 12: 1/700th DML HMS Invincible 13: Re Graf Spee 14: Re: Hornet deck letters 15: Re: That FLETCHER Idea - the National SMML Model Build 16: Ships' stability 17: Re: USS Iowa (Korea) 18: Foriegn Money - Warning ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Matchbox Fletchers 2: Dockyard Mateys 1/700 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Jay Schantzen Subject: Naval Ordnace Book info Has anyone ever read or owned a book called "Naval Ordnance, a guide for midshipman" (USNI)? I'm building a WWI era destroyer, and wonder if this book would have usefull diagrams, etc. Thanks, Jay Schantzen ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Fletcher build, the purpose There have been a lot of suggestions for this Nationals build. I've given one myself. Unfortunately my computer deleted the issue of SMML that had the original suggestion for the build. PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the original intent to create a category split with the ultimate goal to create a new permanent category in ships? Someone fill me in and set me straight before I comment further. >> If I remember the original proposal which was put forth ...to flood the 1999 IPMS Nats ship category and cause a split. The proposal was to do 1/700 Fletchers and the stated reason was the time required to complete a 1/700 scale contest quality model. If that's the goal then lets do it, but let's make sure what we're doing will be worthy of a split and the judges can justify the split.. Do we want to set the split goal to be WWII destroyers or do we want to do the Fletchers? << If I would have read ahead the answer is right below where I commented. Sorry for the two related items. Apparently, I was correct about the purpose for this build. Which is to create a split in the ship categories. What you propose to do is build a "false" category. First, we will have our goal of a split category if a large number of Fletchers for instance, shows up. But in order to create a new and permanent category this will have to occur for several years before I would endorse or suggest the change. In the end it's still up to the E-Board and Contest committee. It also works the opposite way. Categories will be shut down if a sufficient number of entries don't show up on a yearly basis. The point I'm making here is once you create this "false" category you had better consistently enter the numbers needed to keep it on the Nationals category list or it will be removed. What's next, Loading the battleship categories? What category will be loaded after that? Remember, you will have to keep the numbers coming in for several years to get a change and keep them coming in to maintain these categories. Inevitably, this will be a lost cause. Why not keep the fun this project and enter as a group entry? This is exactly why that category was created. I also must say here and now, whether I am head ship judge or not in Orlando next year, that I'll let Dennis Moore know about this "loading the category" strategy. Not to be a snitch, but he has a right to know what's going on. That's my duty as a ship judge. Keep in mind nothing that's been posted here is illegal or unethical in any way. I just want you guys to look ahead and be aware that too many categories will be impossible to maintain by SMMLRer's. Rusty White Head ship judge 1998 Nationals Flagship Models inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Denis & Marilyn Campbell Subject: Helicopters on Iowa during Korea Craig Bennett asks what type of helicopters were carried by Iowa during the Korean war. According to "U.S. Battleships in action" Part 2 by Squadron/Signal, the first helicopters carried were the Sikorsky HO3S-1 "Dragonfly" of HU1 or HU2, the Navy's first seagoing helicopter squadrons formed in April 1947.. (Catapults were removed and a landing/storage deck built in their place aft but the aircraft handling crane remained for a while). The Sikorskys were soon replaced by the Piasecki HUP Retriever, a twin rotor with rotors fore and aft Denis Campbell Avon Mass. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "lamkeel@email.msn.com" Subject: RN Depth Charges, 1936-40 Seeing all this bumph about the colour of depth charges during WWII, I looked into my quite extensive files. I quote from 'O.U.5485, Handbook of Depth Charges and Equipment - 1936'. "The 'D' Mark II charge is a cylindrical vessel of 10 S.W.G. rolled mild steel plate welded longitudinally and closed by flanged plates of the same material and thickness .. . . . Three lifting eyes with rings are bolted to the end plates, two at the pistol end and one at the primer end. . . . . . . 'D' Mark III. This depth charge case is a modified design of the Mark II depth charge case. . . . . . Mark VIII. This is the latest pattern of charge case and is superseding the 'D' charge case as stocks of the latter became exhausted. . . . . . . . .It consists of a cylindrical outer case of mild steel, 0.128 in. thick, 27.75 in. long and 17.5 in. in diameter. A cover is welded to it at each end. Through the centre of the case passes a steel tube 3.5 inches in diameter, which is welded to both the end covers. The pistol and primer are fitted into this tube when the charge is prepared for service. At the pistol end of the tube, three slots are cut for locating the depth adjuster; the primer is inserted through the other end. Two lifting eyes carrying rings are welded to the end cover at the pistol end and one eye with ring at the primer end. . . Two filling holes, closed by means od a cover, stopper, rubber ring and cap nut, are provided in the end cover at the primer end. . . . MARKINGS ON DEPTH CHARGE CASES The following particulars will be found stamped on the pistol end of a charge case in half-inch letters:- (a) 'D' Mark II Maker's initials or recognised trade mark. Year of manufacture Numeral II Mark of Depth Charge 'D'. Naval Armament Mark N**O (**Broad arrow) Government Inspector's Initials The serial number is stamped in half-inch figures, or painted on both ends of the depth charge case. (b) 'D' Mark III Maker's initials or recognised trade mark. Month and year of manufacture. 'D' III The serial number is stamped on the pistol end, or on brass plates soldered on both ends of the charge case. (c) Mark VII charge D.C. Mark VII Makers initials or recognised trade mark. Serial Number. MARKINGS DENOTING FILLING. The nature of the explosive filling is denoted by the following markings on side of depth charge case:- Filling - Trotyl (T.N.T) Marking - A green band two inch wide and a red band one inch wide and numeral in red denoting grade of T.N.T. Filling - Amatol 40/60 consisting of pure Trotyl and first grade Ammonium Nitrate Marking - A red band one inch wide. A criss cross green band two inch wide, 40/60 or as may be applicable in red, and one-inch figures and numeral in red denoting grade of T.N.T. Filling - Amatol 40/60 consisting of crude Trotyl and first grade Ammonium Nitrate Marking - A plain green band two inches wide. OR Filling Amatol 40/60 consisting of first grade Ammonium Nitrate and having a sealing layer of grade II Trotyl in lieu of grade III Marking - A plain red band one-inch wide. 40/60 and numeral denoting grade T.N.T. in red, one inch figures. The figures denoting the mixture of Amatol are about one inch above the green band. On the ends of the depth charge case, the following particular are painted in red:- Filling - Trotyl Marking - T.N.T. I or II in red according to grade. Filling - Amatol 40/60 I, 40/60 or 40/60 III in red according to grade of Trotyl. Nature and mark of depth charge in which. In Red - Monogram of filling station. Date of filling. Expl. Exd. followed by monogram of station examining and date, or other special laboratory marking as applicable. Word weld and figure of a hand, denoting position of weld (shown in white). . . . . . '26,(a). For depth charges issued to ships painted light grey, as on the Mediterranean Station, a light grey colour to correspond to the shade of ships' hulls and fittings should be adopted when repainting. Care is to be taken not to obliterate the markings, and in the case of white markings these should always appear on a background of dark grey'. . ." Later in the war when Corvettes joined the fleet many depth charge cases were painted matt black, or dark grey. I hope this proves of interest. John Lambert ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "John S. Platt" Subject: Re: Admiral Class minesweepers. Good evening SMML ies (I like that, I'm now a smelly) Do any of you know whether any books, profiles, documents or any publication dealing with the WW2 USS Admirable Class Minesweepers? (SMMLies I love it) Best wishes. John S. Platt Brasted, Kent, UK Warm and pleasant and not raining ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Malcolm Waite Subject: USS Warrington Hi I have just completed USS Warrington a Somers class prewar DD, I was taken by the name as I live less that 15miles from the town of that name in Cheshire. Does anybody know why a US destroyer came by this name is it a place in the US or person or what? Malcolm N. Waite Liverpool UK ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Douglas Martin" Subject: Buying abroad, and books wanted. Folks: Generally speaking if I buy goodies outwith the UK it has to be by Visa Card, and we get hit by the 'exchange rate' and Bank 'commission' - not enough to stop the purchase though. Having received US dollar cheques inwards and going to my piggy bank to cash them, I found that they wanted £10 UK, that is $16+ per cheque, not a good idea. I have resorted to obtaining 'used' dollar bills from Thomas Cook, they and many other Travel Agents are all over our towns, so that's not a problem (£100 UK, got me $160, with a 3% commission charge). In all my dealings on the Internet, I've had 3 'illegal' charges to my account, of which I've been repaid 2. I've made 2 cash purchases from the USA, and so far all is well. I too would appreciate any sellers stating which country they are from. Back to ships: ========== I have 2 books, Model Art 1/700 Drawings of IJN Naval vessels, Vol. 1&2. Does anybody know of other books in this series and their availability, I'm especially after books on Japanese Warships? Does anybody have the Tamiya 'Random Japanese Warship Details, Vol. 2' for sale? Thanks, Douglas (Scotland) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Norman Samish Subject: Re: Inclining From: "Foeth" >> I decided to write an article on ship geometry and stabilty, which could be placed on the Warship site, if the webmasters think it is okay. But I won't stop at stability, I intend to make it more general, and I have the following subjects in mind: Displacement according to Archimedes (also blockcoeffecients...) Static, Dynamic and Forced lift (normal hull/hydrofoil/hovercraft) Centres of Gravity and Buoyancy (including weights lifted by cranes) Metacentre and Righting arms Ship curves of stability Damage stability and liquid cargoes Ship Resistance Waves and Speed Elementary Ship motions Ships and Coefficients (Froude, Admiralty...comparing different warships of a single category the way they should (like Battleships)) Model testing Propellors and Cavitation << I'm an engineer too (chemical) and so I'm naturally enterested in your project. (Your article about bow wave angle was very useful.) This sounds particularly pertinent for those who build operating models- with this information your model can not only look like the real thing, it can sail like it too, even in simulated typhoons! If you're like me you'll learn a lot by writing a textbook. I hope you'll let us know on this site as each new chapter is published on Warship. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Norman Samish Subject: Re: overseas money >> A few solutions to sending small funds overseas from looking at it on the US side of the pond, besides using a credit card which is not possible in private transactions, are: (snip) << The one and only time I tried to send a small amount of cash through the US mail, it was stolen. I recently ordered a book from the UK- I simply mailed them a personal US check in dollars which covered the cost, in English pounds, of the book and mailing. I added 10% as a guesstimate of their cost of conversion. It took them a while to clear the check but I eventually received the book and the vendor had no complaints about my form of payment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Norman Samish Subject: Re: inclining >> With respect to your inquiry about a DD heeling so her deck was awash, that need not be unusual. Many small ships experienced that condition. For example PC type Patrol Craft of WWII were designed to heel 110 degrees. Many of those ships reported "decks awash." I served on one that did. For information seethe book "PC Patrol Craft of World War II" at: http://members.aol.com/wveigele/pcraft/pcraft.htm << Thanks, Bill, you've removed my doubts. That must be an impressive sight, a DD heeled over enough to have decks awash. That might make a terrific waterline model if it was done right! About how many degrees of tilt do you think that would be? I looked at your website at http://members.aol.com/wveigele/pcraft/pcraft.htm and it is very interesting. An even more impressive sight would be the PC heeled over 110 degrees- that sounds incredible! Doesn't that mean the centerline of the bottom of the hull is higher than the centerline at the top of the hull? With that much tilt, some of the bridge must have been under water. Were the engines reciprocating diesels? Were they able to keep operating at that tilt? They were remarkable ships to survive something like that without capsizing. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: CBNJBB62@aol.com Subject: Re: CV deck markings In regard to the Hornet I agree. The letters HRT seem to be at the ones used. For John Horney's request on the Cyclone Class PC. The Navy commissioned one in late 1995 in Philadelphia and I have photos of here. What kind of stores carry scanners for commercial use to the public, any one know? I'll e-mail 'em to you John. If this is the type of information you need. Craig Bennett ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Michael Quan" Subject: 1/700th DML HMS Invincible Hello Ski-Ramp fanatics! I saw a pre-release of the DML 700th HMS Invincible today at the local hobby emporium. It is an exciting kit to get; however, there are differences from what 700th waterline followers have come to expect. Overall detail is rather plain and simple. All deck detail is RAISED and looks unrealistic. The FULL hull has no option as kitted to convert to a waterline model. The hull is split vertically to allow detail to be engraved into the hull sides. I was surprised to see that the parts count appears to be less than in a comparable Skywave kit (which may or may not be good). Extremely detailed and accurately proportioned Harriers and Seakings are provided. Retail price was pegged at $22. Mike Quan, Garland Texas ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "Michael C. Smith" Subject: Re: Graf Spee Just looked at a new picture book over the weekend at the bookstore on famous shipwrecks (by some documentary filmmaker I've never heard of) and Nelson's ship Agammemnon and the Graf Spee were included. The bookincludes side-scan sonar of the wreck (the water is so murky very little could be photographed) and some pictures before scuttling that show the damage to the Panzerschiff from the British cruisers. One photo showed the green (I assume it's green) camouflage on the forward superstructure. Seems like someone said this wasn't correct - the ship was overall dark gray. Since this has fired up my enthusiasm for building a 1/700 scale model, could someone please direct me to the best sources for building that particular kit (research, aftermarket help, kit errors, etc.). Michael Smith Marshall, Texas -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "Michael C. Smith" Subject: Re: Hornet deck letters The photos of Hornet at Norfolk on 20 October 1941 (bow shot) shows two dashed lines and (I believe) a thin set of dashed lines down the middle, which matches what the Enterprise carried. There are three matching lighter paint "things" at the bow and stern within the outer dashed lines, but I can't resolve them into letters, and think they are some kind of "end of the deck" markings. Interstingly, there is a photo of the Yorktown at Norfolk six weeks earlier in freash Measure 12 (same thing the Hornet had, and looks minty ). She has some deck striping and marks, but the YKTN has been removed. Interestingly, the thicker "sideways" deck markings have been reduced to stubs out side the dashed lines. If you take those "stubs" and put three of them bow and stern they look a lot like what appears on the Hornet photo six weeks later. I note that the September 1941 camouflage instructions left carrier deck painting and marking unaddresses, saying with respect to striping only that it should be "discontinuous" and as narrow as possible. More guessing! Michael Smith Marshall, Texas ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "Michael C. Smith" Subject: Re: That FLETCHER Idea - the National SMML Model Build " Since the projected recreation of "Murderer's Row" is in Dallas Texas in 2000, I nominate Mike Davis (of the same city), as 'curator' for out of town entries! :-)" I didn't know that was in Dallas - glad to hear it. I've got a 1/700 1944 Lexington and 1944 Ticonderoga, and I'm just two hours away. They aren't the best built in the world, but they're accurate (and will make yours look better, I guarantee!) Since I'm responsible for the Squadron/Signal book on the Essexes, Mike can add me to the team for technical support - maybe I can help with questions about how a ship looked at a certain point and save someone some work and time on research. Just put my models in the background where you can't see the lousy detailing! Michael Smith Marshall, Texas ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: WVeigele@aol.com Subject: Ships' stability I look forward to reading articles to be written by Mr. Foeth about ships' stability, etc. He is generous to offer to take time from his studies to do this for the membership of SMML. Bill Veigele ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "Morley, James (London)" Subject: Re: USS Iowa (Korea) Craig, I think the helicopter deployed was a Sikorsky S51. As far as the colours go, vertical surfaces Haze Grey, I would imagine that the steel decks were slightly darker (anti-skid? someone help me out here). The turret tops are certainly a dark colour, which is probably grey as you suggest. Turret #1 had the number "61" in white, underlined, and facing for'ard on the roof. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: Minadmiral@aol.com Subject: Foriegn Money - Warning Hi; Just a gentle WARNING.Do not send cash,currency ,money,or such overseas from the US.The U.S. Post Orifice informs me that this is illegal,they don`t care if you are sending US currency or foriegn,it`s illegal and you can be prossecuted. Seems that BIG BROTHER believes that anyone who wants to send cash by mail to an overseas destination is eather buying drugs, laundering money, or avoiding taxes. I get foriegn currency drafts from Bank of America for $10 by calling and ordering them, it`s $20 at the counter. Chuck Duggie -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Shaya Novak" Subject: Matchbox Fletchers SMMLer's the Naval Base has: 4 Matchbox Fletchers in stock 10.00 each 2 Gearing - Albatros 9.00 each 2 Sumner - Albatros 9.00 each Contact shaya@erols.com or call 212-759-1846 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Caroline Carter" Subject: Dockyard Mateys 1/700 Hi Guys, Here are the Dockyard Mateys 1/700 diorama accessories so far (first batch arrived today). Prices apply to export. VAT at 17.5% to be added for the EC WEM DM 7001 1/700 Saddletank J13/J52 0-6-0 ST Loco (x2) 2.95 WEM DM 7002 1/700 Small Box Van for General Freight (x4) 2.95 WEM DM 7003 1/700 Large Box Van for General Freight (x4) 2.95 WEM DM 7004 1/700 40 Ton Well wagon with optional sheeted load(x4) 2.95 WEM DM 7005 1/700 Guards/Brake van(x4) 2.95 WEM DM 7006 1/700 Bedford OYD 4x2 3-Ton GS Truck(x4) 2.95 WEM DM 7007 1/700 Bedford OXC 30cwt Box Van/Mobile Canteen(x4) 2.95 WEM DM 7008 1/700 Dock Shunting Engine SR Class K14 1908-1959 0-4-0 B4 loco (x2)2.95 WEM DM 7009 1/700 22 Ton Low Machinery Wagon with optional load(x4) 2.95 WEM DM 7010 1/700 Twin Bolster Wagon(x4) 2.95 WEM DM 7011 1/700 5-Plank Goods Wagon(x4) 2.95 WEM DM 7012 1/700 8-Plank Coal Wagon(x4) 2.95 WEM DM 7013 1/700 Sherman M4 tank(x4) 2.95 WEM DM 7014 1/700 Churchill Mk VII tank(x4) 2.95 WEM DM 7015 1/700 Fuel Tank Wagon(x4) 2.95 WEM DM 7016 1/700 6 inch x 1.5 inch Straight Dock section WEM DM 7017 1/700 L-Shaped Dock Section WEM DM 7018 1/700 1.5 inch square Corner Piece WEM DM 7019 1/700 4 inch long 2 storey building WEM DM 7020 1/700 1 inch long Single storey Building WEM DM 7021 1/700 Shed (single pitch) WEM DM 7022 1/700 Concrete Steps WEM DM 7023 1/700 Large Winding Capstan WEM DM 7024 1/700 Large open round storage tank The latter items have been mastered and are sitting right here. The docks are sectional, with inside and outside corner pieces, enabling no end of diorama possibilities... a photoetched brass set is also being designed to complement this lot. There is a great double spread pic in British Cruisers of WW2 with most of the above elements visible by the way. http://whiteensignmodels.simplenet.com/dock/dock1.jpg http://whiteensignmodels.simplenet.com/dock/dock2.jpg http://whiteensignmodels.simplenet.com/dock/dock3.jpg http://whiteensignmodels.simplenet.com/dock/dock4.jpg http://whiteensignmodels.simplenet.com/dock/dock5.jpg http://whiteensignmodels.simplenet.com/dock/dock6.jpg http://whiteensignmodels.simplenet.com/dock/dock7.jpg Cheers Caroline http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume