Subject SMML31/12/98VOL411 Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 17:38:28 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Overhang color 2: Re: Yamato Deck Seam 3: Re: Revell Forrestal 4: Re: Kresta I and II 5: Re: Measure 22 countershading 6: Re: Carrier deck weathering 7: Re: Detailing 1/700 Aircraft 8: Re: Measure 22 9: Re: Warship Books 10: HMS Terror and HMS Erebus 11: RAL Colors 12: Re: Kresta 1 and 2 13: Help needed "OREGON" Glencoe kit 14: Re: Kresta I and Kresta II info. 15: Re: Kelly/Kashmir assistance 16: Re: Glenconnon and obscure TV shows 17: USS Hornet deck markings 18: Re: Kresta I 19: Re: Revell Forrestal and Essex 20: Re: USS Indianapolis 21: Re: Lindberg kits -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Re: Detaing small aircraft -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS Note from Shane: I would like to wish all list members a happy & prosperous new year. And I would like to thank again all members who have contributed to SMML, making it one of the best lists around. I would also like to thank Greg personally for trusting me with his "baby". Also my wife Lorna for her support. Sorry for the early edition, as I'm about to go & do a First Aid duty with St John Ambulance, so I can knock off early to see in the new year :-))) (hic). Cheers & good health Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Overhang color >> Does anyone know if the overhangs on ships painted in Measure 22 were countershaded? I know they were sometimes painted a lighter color to prevent shadows, but what color precisely? << The overhangs on ships were left the most prevalent color of the ship since they played no part in the scheme painted on the ship. In other words, since they couldn't be seen from the surface at a distance they were not painted. Likewise for aerial observation Camo. Schemes. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Yamato Deck Seam >> Does any one have any suggestions as to how to tackle this two piece deck? << I've brought this up before and works well for me. I haven't built the 1/200 Yamato but this technique will work even better on large scale ships. The most important thing to remember is to make sure both halves of the deck are dead level with each other. Depending on how wide the gap is fill wide gaps with strip styrene. Make sure the strip styrene is level with the deck. To fill the seam left mix up some Squadron Green Putty with liquid glue to thin it down. Very carefully, use a fine brush and apply the putty to the seam only. Try not to overlap the putty on the deck if at all possible. Keep in mind that since the putty is mixed with liquid glue it will shrink quite a bit and may require more putty to fill the seam. Use a soft rag (like a diaper) dipped in DENATURED ALCOHOL and wipe over the seam in the direction of the planking. REGULAR ALCOHOL WILL NOT DISSOLVE THE PUTTY. Since you're using a soft rag it will conform to the shape of the deck and will not damage the deck detail while smoothing the seam. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Rick Lundin Subject: Re: Revell Forrestal As near as I can remember the original issue of the Revell Forrestal(CVA-59) had four each of the F2H Banshee, FJ-3 Fury, F7U Cutlass and A3D Skywarrior as well as two HUP helos and a blue/gray flight deck. The Aurora Forrestal had F11F Tigers, F8U Crusaders, FJ Furies and F7U Cutlasses, I think six of each. They were in dark blue plastic while the ship was grey. These aircraft were vague representations of the real planes. The F11F Tigers by Revell came with the original issue of the Essex (CVA-9) also included in that kit were F8U Crusaders and AD-5 Skyraiders. I think there were six of each and these were reasonably good models in their own right with raised panel lines and accurate shapes. This kit did not include A3D's. They were on the Renwall Shangri-La (CVA-38). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Robert Lockie" Subject: Re: Kresta I and II Guide to the Soviet Navy 2nd Edition by Polmar and Breyer (Patrick Stephens Ltd) has elevation and plan drawings of both classes, in 1/795 and 1/811 scales respectively (I think they are scaled to fit the page). There is a copy of the latter in An Illustrated Guide to the Modern Soviet Navy, by John Jordan and published by Salamander. Alternatively, Janes Fighting Ships (or at least the 1984-85 edition) has 1/1200 drawings (starboard profile and plan view) of both by Norbert Weisner. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "Robert Lockie" Subject: Re: Measure 22 countershading I spent a few days on the USS Kidd (fine restoration job, a 'must see' if in the area) at Baton Rouge last year and the countershading there is in white. The curator told me that it was not as extensive as it should have been but the restoration team had put enough in to show how it was done. This is consistent with the instructions in the June 1942 revision of SHIPS 2, which stated, 'Lighten shadows caused by overhanging horizontal surfaces by painting their undersides white (5-U).' Source for the later is Camouflage 1, published by Floating Drydock. Robert Lockie Cambridge UK -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: Carrier deck weathering The CVE referred to by Rusty was built by Bert McDowell, known to us out here on the West Coast as "The Haze Gray Admiral". Bert indeed does fine weathering of flight decks (this isn't the only example I've seen). Someone (Tom, Bert, are you listening) should get him to write a piece on his technique. BTW, I've had the pleasure(?) of competing against Bert in locals and Nationals; anyone doing so had better have his model up to snuff, 'cause The Admiral always does.... John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: Detailing 1/700 Aircraft Can't advise about flaps (though I would suggest the use of bond paper cut to correct size and fitted to the wings), but my canopy treatment is to paint them very light blue, and draw on the frames using a .5mm mechanical pencil. At that scale, the fact that the lines are gray rather than blue really isn't perceptible. A well-sharpened Prismacolor pencil of the appropriate blue should work as well, but you'll have to be religious about keeping that point sharp. Technique used on my CV-6 which took 3rd at the Nationals a few years back. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: Measure 22 The Ships 2 revision of June 1942 called for countershading to be used with Ms.22: shadows were to be lightened by painting the undersides of overhanging horizontal surfaces in white (5-U). Countershading was continued in the March 1943 Ships 2 supplement. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "John S. Platt" Subject: Re: Warship Books Hi all I visited the http://www.bookshop.co.uk bookshop, its a great site. It contains many Warship books for sale however I have a problem. It dos not give book content only titles, authors etc. I would like to get a book that deals with USN Admirable Class Minesweepers. Do any of you know which of the Warship series does deal with these ships? Please accept my thanks in advance and I look forward to your replies. Best wishes. John S. Platt. Brasted, Kent, UK Cold but dry -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Rob Ridley" Subject: HMS Terror and HMS Erebus Greetings! I am an avid researcher of Canadian Arctic History and have been looking for models or plans for models for the HMS Terror and the HMS Erebus. These two ships were used by Franklin during his disasterous search of the Northwest Passage 150 years ago. If anyone can help me I'd truly appreciate it. Thanks. Rob Ridley London, Ontario, Canada -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: DKrakow105@aol.com Subject: RAL Colors Adding to my original commentary on RAL colors: First, I agree with Jan to the extent that a model ship is an interpretation of past or present reality; to that extent, I have nothing against using the "close enough" approach when mixing colors for a model. I do this myself. However, when it comes to compiling plans, data, color charts and other research materials, the issue becomes precise, thorough and methodical documentation of reality as it was. Where a modelbuilder is free to employ interpretation and artistic license, the historian is bound to work with documented facts. A color chart not based on historical documentation is of no value. If I want to do any interpreting, that's my business; the chart I use should still be as close to 100% accuracy as the survivng records permit. Anything less than that is fraudulent. Second, Falk's commentary is only partially correct. While it is true that the Kriegsmarine had their own system of naming colors, as did the Luftwaffe and Wehrmacht, the colors were mixed by commercial paint contractors based on numbered color chips issued by RAL. See, RAL (Reichsausschuss fuer Lieferbedingungen) was established in 1925 in order to assure consistency and quality of German products. As such, they issued a master color chart in 1927 with the intention of simplyfying government contracts for various shades and names of paints. The chart was at first limited to 40 colors, with an emphasis on using pigments of German origin. By the end of the 1930's the list was expanded to about 100 colors and included all those in use by the German military at that time. The RAL master chart was seperately cross-referenced to the traditional names used by the Kriegsmarine, Luftwaffe and Wehrmacht. These cross-references, such as in the "Handbuch fuer Lackierbetriebe 1944" existed during the war, and were not solely the invention of postwar model-builders. So for example the same RAL grey shade may have been used by all three branches, and called by three different names. Last, since the Kriegsmarine used only a very limited palette of colors (approximately 20 as compared to the dozens in use by the USN) and since original color chip charts are known to exist, as well as lots of other good evidence, it would not be a major hardship for someone to actually do the legwork necessary to establish a fully-documented and reliable chart for modellers. In fact, if someone can send me an extensive set of grey/blue grey color chips I could probably put the issue to rest once and for all. David Krakow Oberbeamter fuer Kreigsmarine Farben -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "roger torgeson" Subject: Re: Kresta 1 and 2 Pieter, Try finding a copy of Soviet Warships 1945 to the Present, Revised and Expanded Edition. It's by John Jordan and the publisher is Arms and Armour, ISBN 1-85409-117-4. The book has two view drawings for both the 'Kresta I' (page 69) and 'Kresta II' (page 83). The only copy I have of Combat Fleets of the World 1984 / 85 has a few larger pictures of both. You may try a local for a library for a copy of it. in fact a few years on each side of 84 / 85 sould show the ships also. Good luck Roger Torgeson -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: JVT7532@aol.com Subject: Help needed "OREGON" Glencoe kit Hello, I have started to get everything ready for my Oregon kit and was looking for some info on the colors used during the Spanish American war era, and what paints they would relate to in say ModelMaster or Floquil. Also are there any good references on the Internet available. And one last thing I'm looking for a source and the proper size for the Anchor chains. I have Toms photo etch set and it looks to be a real winner, if fact buying this was what made me get this out of the pile to get it started. Any tips or help with this kit will be greatly appreciated Thanks to all and happy modeling. Jon -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: dhjonespsm@juno.com Subject: Re: Kresta I and Kresta II info. >> I'm looking for good top views (either drawings or photographs) of Soviet Kresta 1 and Kresta 2 class cruisers. I'm trying to find out their funnel configuration. Anybody know any sources? << The best sources are: Guide to the Soviet Navy - second edition (1977) by Siegfried Breyer and Norman Polmar. (USNIP) Profile and plan view drawings of both Kresta I and Kresta II by Breyer. Guide to the Soviet Navy - third edition by Norman Polmar (1983) (USNIP) Kresta II - profile drawing and 6 photos Kresta I - profile drawing and 4 photos including a nice aerial view. In the more recent editions of this reference (4th edition and the current 5th edition) the illustrations are fewer in number (printing quality not as good and the ones remaining are the same as those found in the 3rd. edition) the diminished coverage reflecting the obsolesence of the design. If you have difficulty in locating a copy of either of these books you can contact me off the list - I can supply copies of the pages. You might also check out Abebooks website and do a book search - they had copies of both of these editions listed for sale at a very reasonable price earlier in the week. Daniel Jones -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: CHRIS DRAGE Subject: Re: Kelly/Kashmir assistance Hi All, Just wish to make public my thanks to all those wonderful SMMeLies who gave so generously of the time top provide detailed research and answers to my queries regarding Kelly/Kashmir. I just hope the dio reflects the quality of the assistance given! A happy and prosperous New Year to all SMMeLies wherever you are! Regards, Chris He tao rakau e taea te karo, tena he tao kupa kaore e taea te karo.... (Te reo Maori) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: dhjonespsm@juno.com Subject: Re: Glenconnon and obscure TV shows >> OK, now that we've taken on Navy Log, Silent Service, etc., does anyone else on the list remember watching Thomas Mitchell--great character actor--playing the lead role as the Chief Engineer of the INCHECLIFF CASTLE in "Glencannon", a short-lived 1950s series based on the books by Guy Gilpatrick? << Sure - I remember all of the above. With the Glencannon show as I recall about the only time you actually saw the ship was during the title roll. I enjoyed it though. However, all these shows are easy! Here is one I will bet no one else on the planet remembers (or at least the network (CBS?) probably HOPES that no one remembers it). CONVOY - starring John Larch and David Heddison. (about 1967-68) The concept was "Wagon Train" at sea. Bad scripts, bad acting, trotting out every old cliche of the wartime propaganda films, and it was the first casualty of the season - cancelled after less than six episodes were shown. It WAS awful - but I watched it because they used a LOT of stock footage of ships to pad the insipid storylines. A 3 pointer in the old TV challenge - anyone else remember it? Daniel H. Jones -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "Michael C. Smith" Subject: USS Hornet deck markings I just got a good look at my copy of the original photo of the Hornet at Hampton Roads around the time she was commissioned, and the letters on the bow end of the flight deck are very clear - H N T - facing forward, which makes sense since, as has been pointed out, the letters would be facing a pilot landing over the bow with the ship going in reverse. The photo is 80-G-1027212 and can be ordered from the National Archives under that number. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: CBNJBB62@aol.com Subject: Re: Kresta I Dear Sir: I hope I have some helpful information. For the cruiser Kresta try getting the book Soviet Warships by John Jordan, 1983 by USNI About TV shows well, It must have been a segment because in the book I listed before about the Navy Log he (Thomas Mitchell) was quite busy with dramas using different names. In 1953 he won a emmy for best actor. About the countershadowing on measure 21 I remember seeing a photo in warship International years ago that white paint was applied on the under side of gun tubs or decks. Sincerely Craig Bennett -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: ECammeron@aol.com Subject: Re: Revell Forrestal and Essex When it first came out in the 50's, the Forrestal kit had F7Us, FJs, F2Hs, F9Fs, (I think) and A3Ds. When the Essex came out, it had F8Us, F11Fs, A4Ds, ADs and A3Ds. Later, the Essex was issued as the Wasp, with S-2, E-1, SH-3 and A-4 aircraft. Hornet had the same with the Apollo capsule. Eugene Cammeron -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: "Frank and Carol Berger" Subject: Re: USS Indianapolis It would seem that the Indy was painted in a combination of neutral haze gray for the upper hull and navy blue (purple blue range) for the lower hull. Decks are Deck Blue 20-B. If you are interested, I have a very informative message regarding the painting of the Indianapolis I could forward to you. Frank Berger -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: Jowfx@webtv.net (John Fox) Subject: Re: Lindberg kits Lindberg's USS Antietam, kit #1721, is another example of putting the wrong name on a model. They call the ship the Antietam, the ship on the box art has Antietam's hull number, but that's it. The model (and box art) has an angled deck and hurricane bow. It is either an advanced SCB-27C or SCB-125. Antietam was the first US carrier to have an angled deck. That was the only modification she received however, retaining her open bow and even her 4 island twin 5"38's. This kit is one of their 12" models making the scale 1/888 or so. BTW this kit comes with F-6 Skyrays, F-8 Crusaders, some kind of helo with twin rotors which kind of resembles an CH-46 but not quite, and a Gemini capsule. I don't believe that the Antietam was involved with any of the space craft recoveries though. John Fox -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Detaing small aircraft >> I'm seeking advice the various methods the SMML'ers use to detail small scale aircraft, in particular cockpit panel lines, flaps etc... << Not to toot my own horn, but Flagship Models makes a beautiful detail set for 1/700 scale modern carrier aircraft (FM 700-12). Details include sidewinder missiles, drop tanks, refueling probes, props, landing gear with doors, bomb pylons and relief etched. The parts were designed to fit F-14s, A-7s, A-6s and E-2s. These details are also included on our Nimitz class detail set (FM 700-11). Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. ht