Subject: SMML05/01/99VOL416 Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 23:50:16 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Availability of 1/350 RMS Queen Mary 2: Re: Online Bookstores 3: Re: BATTLESHIP Scharnhorst 4: Re: Watching and learning 5: Re: MB Models service 6: Fuso and Yamashiro Anatomy book 7: Re: 1/200 Yamato 8: Re: OKLAHOMA CITY 9: Re: Online Bookstores and KGVs 10: Re: Revell 1/144 11: Re: Blue Water Navy...USS Kidd Kit 12: Re: Oklahoma City (CLG) 13: Need Help 14: Converting a Revell Elco into a 'Ron 29 boat 15: Re: Scharnhorst & April /40 16: Re: Request for 1:1250 models 17: Great Eastern 18: Re: Flower Class Deck Planking 19: RN use of Buckley class destroyer escorts in WW2 20: Re: KGV turret roofs in 1944 21: Re: HMS Belfast 22: U.S.S. Constitution by Mamoli 23: Re: HMS Lion @ Jutland -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: WSW ASKOLD kit 2: Re: Profile Morskie -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: ironship@usit.net (Jon Warneke) Subject: Re: Availability of 1/350 RMS Queen Mary >> Am looking for a 1/350 scale model kit of the Queen Mary. This scale is not in production now. If anyone knows where I can find such a kit, pleaseadvise. Currently, only German Revell and Modelcraft produce a ~1/600 scale model. << You're probably not going to find a kit in this scale for quite a while, unless Minicraft or Academy do it. I have the 1/600 Revell Germany kit, and when scaled out to 1/350 (for a pattern...), the length was well over 35+ inches. I can't remember the hull height or beam, but this ship was far beyond anything we were prepared to do in resin. Jon Warneke Iron Shipwrights -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Alberto Rada Subject: Re: Online Bookstores Hi Mike Try : http://www.abebooks.com/ They represent a huge number of bookstores around the globe with new and used books at very good prices. They have helped me a lot in building my now growing Marine library SALUDOS Alberto -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Foeth" Subject: Re: BATTLESHIP Scharnhorst >> The Scharnhorst's are refered to as Battlecruisers as the designers started with the WWI designs for Yorck and Mackensen as a starting point. I would not really rate KGV as being undergunned, over complex turrets being their main fault. they are often refered to as Pengelly's masterpeice. << Concidering their 14" guns to the Rodneys 16", and the fact that no other nation used anything lower than 15", I would say that the KGV might suffer in a BB vs BB engagement. The Bismarck/PoW fight is not really representative, concidering the PoW crew's training and the state of her turrets. Also, at the short range, the PoW 14" guns were able to penetrate several lightly armoured regions on the Bismarck, not really giving a conclusive fact. I have just found Roberts & Raven's British Battleship book, so I can give their design some attention. In a fully trained KGV vs Tirpitz fight, one would have to see what the outcome might be, as the KgV's too are protected well, and have the benefit of radar. Although the Scharnhorst originated from cruisers, this does not make them so, and I still believe that their heavy armouring should give them the battleship title, although being severly underarmed. German literature often does. Off course, this is a point of debate, and will remain so, I think. Another point I might introduce is the heavy secondary armament on the Scharnhorsts, but, their high speeds might reduce them again to cruisers. As for the Renown fight: it might be interesting to draw a parallel to the cruiser engaments at Jutland, where armaments and armouring were balanced in a different way by the two nations, just as in this fight, although the Renown's guns are much heavier than the Scharnhorst, but Renown's armouring is weak, to say the least. I fully agree that sea battle's depend greatly on many factors, including luck, and viewing the luck of the Germans, they might as well have lost. This remains pure speculation, however. As for radar: in view of the bad quality of the radar sets, and the maintenance on behalf of the crew, I do not think it would make much differnce. According to Erwin Sieges' articel on Fumo equipment, confidence in the equipmetn was so low, that many ships carried uncalibrated radar during the war, so this would definitely be a pro for the Brisish later in the war. I do not know what quality the radar on Renown was during the engagement (if they carried any at the time) As for horizontal armour: yes, undoubtedly true. Bombs could penetrate all armoured decks from a certain height, and in view of the Tallboy bombs, only three meter thick reinforced concrete could take a direct hit, although it would need thourough repairs! Several german fortifications were hit with tallboys, without damaging the subs in the bunkers. Plunging shellfire also is a major threat, and I think the Renown is particularly on the disadvantageous side on this point, as 2 inch deck armour is very light. Good thing too that that handsome vessel was not sunk. Evert-Jan Foeth -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Watching and learning I'm sorry to hear the problems some of you are having regarding BWN's replacing defective parts. Mike has always been a little slow to answer, but I have always received what I believe was good service. I purchased two extra A/C sets for my Yorktown and was told the decals didn't make it from the manufacturer in time to be mailed with the kit. However, Mike assured me they would be sent as soon as they arrive. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt until he proves different. I also can understand "forgetting" to answer every request. I send out at least 50 catalogs a month and answer a ton of emails. Here at Flagship Models I have had only one request for a replacement set (not bad for 8 years), which I promptly filled. Several times I have been out of stock on one or two items due to my distributors ordering large quantities. I send a letter informing the customer it has been back ordered and will arrive very soon and if they would like their money back, I would cheerfully refund, no questions asked. I include my phone # and email address. The point is, sometimes, even with the best of intentions, people just slip through. It's happened a couple of times to me. What I have learned is keep the lines of communication open. As long as the modeler knows he's not been forgotten, modelers as a group are very patient and understanding. As we all can see here, the problem most folks have is not communicating with them. I am getting ready to introduce Flagship's Close-In Weapon System kit. SMML has been a great learning tool for me to see first hand what people dislike and like about mail order model companies. I just wanted you all to know it has not fallen on deaf ears. I'll keep plenty of extra parts on hand. I'm always watching (reading) and learning about this business. I also can understand MB's frustration about not being mentioned when a model they make is left out of an article. If the modeler who wrote it indeed wouldn't recommend MB because of problems in the past, that's his alternative. I have been fighting that battle ever since I started Flagship. The problem is GMM and Tom's Modelworks were around quite awhile before Flagship and that name recognition is HARD to overcome. I see it almost very day right here, but I just have to live with it. GMM & Tom's didn't get such good reputations if they didn't deserve it. Sorry to ramble. Just watching and learning. Rusty White Flagship Models inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: MB Models service Speak of the devil! While I was reading SMML (8:30 am) I got an email from Mike Bishop. He said the decals would be shipped today. I sent the email yesterday. As I said, until Mike proves to me otherwise, I'll continue to recommend MB Models and mention their good service. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Michael Connelley Subject: Fuso and Yamashiro Anatomy book Hello: I remember reading here that there will be a new "Anatomy" book on the Fuso and Yamashiro due out before too long. Anyone out there in SMMLand know when this book is supposed to be released and/or how much it'll cost??? Cheers Mike Connelley -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Randall S. Millar" Subject: Re: 1/200 Yamato I purchased this kit in November '98, and so this info *should* be fairly accurate. I purchased mine from Rainbow10, which listed the kit at $159. I think the shipping was something like $40, making the whole proposition ~$200. This was *FAR* cheaper than anything else I could find, either in the states or overseas. The kit arrived in perfect condition. GMM does still produce the PE set, listing at $80. I recommend this set, although others tend to think it too bulky. I even managed to find Skulski's book for something like $60. One of the most valuable lessons I've learned thus far about this project is that there are very few *facts* known about how the ship really looked, including coloring, etc. Skulski's drawings are invaluable, and the size of the model allows for many levels of detail to be added/omitted. Have fun! Randy -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: OKLAHOMA CITY Interesting, in that during one fleet exercise off the Southern California coast in 1968, we (USS BAINBRIDGE) ended up sinking a target DE by gunfire (the ONLY time I ever saw our 3"50s perform as advertised--got some great color slides). Anyway, the day before we sank her, OKIE CITY had put a Talos missile (trying out a surface-to-surface mod) right through her amidships! BIG hole! And now she's relegated to target status herself.... John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Douglas Martin" Subject: Re: Online Bookstores and KGVs Michael: The owners of this list have a website below, goto their 'links' page and you will see links to bookshops. (Incs the UK 'bookshop' link) I'm not sure if the guys want to add in non Internet bookshops, like a couple I could mention for UK folks (and others if they want to try Mail Order) Caroline at WEM also has books for sale. For anyone wanting more information on the KGV Battleships, there is a book called: King George V Class Battleships, by V.E.Tarrant, Arms And Armour Press, ISBN 1-85409-267-07, 1991. I got my copy from the Motor Book shop, London. There is a pic of Duke of York, April 1942, painted in 'overall medium grey', its a pic from high port, guess what, the turret tops look 'darker' than the side colour, but lighter than the deck colour. I'm saying no more! Douglas Note from Shane: Douglas is referring to http://warship.simplenet.com/ . -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "David P. Judy III" Subject: Re: Revell 1/144 There are the type XXI German subs ( WWII and postwar Wilhelm Baur) and a Type 206 coastal sub. I've built the XXI, these are beautifully moulded kits w/ fine detail, a pleasue to build! Dave Judy -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: valiant@home.com Subject: Re: Blue Water Navy...USS Kidd Kit Thanks a lot JZ and Alberto! I was thinking about buying a kit or two from there. I'm not giving a single cent of my hard earned money to a company that operates under the motto of 'screw the customer, we've got his money'. I'm still trying to get product outta another company and I ordered the stuff almost a year ago. I've complained and have been promised the already paid in advance product but no sign yet. So I'm starting to plan a serious flame campaign ...because you know the old saying...do unto others as you would have them do to you. Aaron Propper modeler on the loose NOTE FROM SHANE: Okay gang, let's pop this on the head straight away. SMML IS FLAME FREE, so any flames WILL be cut out. As for the MB/BWN thread, I think it would be best to stop here, before it gets out of hand. Unless of course, you feel you can contribute positively to the issue & not just muddy the waters further. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: James Corley Subject: Re: Oklahoma City (CLG) From: SeaPhoto@aol.com Subject: Re: Oklahoma City (CLG) >> The latest I have heard is that she is scheduled to be towed from Mare Island to Pearl Harbor this week. From there she goes to a target range for a SinkEx - rumor is that she will be a target for a submarine torpedo. << Thats a little more dignified than being cut-up, a la Coral Sea.....last last time I saw her I almost cried she looked so pitiful. From: tomkremer Subject: Hornet Museum Ship James writes: >> Of course, if she were next to the Hornet (the CV you saw) there may be a small sliver of hope that she'll join the Hornet's museum flotilla. Actually Hornet is down at the ex-Alameda Naval Air Station and is now open to the public. << Oops...shoulda read "(the CV you saw??)" ..... forgot the ?? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: fleetnut@juno.com (Stephen C Gustafson) Subject: Need Help Hi SMMLies I am in need of your help on two counts: 1) Anyone know of a modeler named Bob Bracci in Connecticut? A diorama he created of Pearl Harbor in 1:4100 appeared in a late 1994/early 1995 special issue of Fine Scale Modeler. I have emailed them with no result. I really would like to correspond with Mr. Bracci about his diorama. Any help would be appreciated. 2) For years I have been bitten with the naval shipyard bug. I have quite a few volumes about various U.S. Navy shipyards but I am hoping for more. I know that there are fairly large scale plans of most if not all current and past facilities but have had no luck contacting the "right" person. If any of you naval types out there know the "Man With the Plan" please let me know. Thanks so much, Steve Gustafson -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: HDente@aol.com Subject: Converting a Revell Elco into a 'Ron 29 boat I am converting a Revell Elco into a 'Ron 29 boat with the Elco Thunderbolt 4x20mm turret on the stern. I wonder if any of you have opinions on the following: 1. Were they really Thayer Blue ( measure 16) or a locally procured, perhaps RN color. 2. Decks were supposedly 20B and photos I have seen show the deck as being darker-but what about the top of the day cabin, lockers, etc. The photos would indicate a hue of the same intensity and value as the vertical surfaces, but they are pretty fuzzy. 3. Recognition markings. Victor Chung states in his book that Med based PTs had a 4' yellow recognition stripe on the bow and a 4' red stripe on the stern. I can see the bow stripe in some photos of Ron 29 boats, but not the stern, and not all the photos where the bow is visable is the stripe present. Any help would be appreciated Harry Dente -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: jmaine@golden.net Subject: Re: Scharnhorst & April /40 Hi all, A recent post asked about the encounter between the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau and the British battlecruiser HMS Renown in April 1940. This encounter took place in the early hours of 9 April as both England and Germany were in the midst of sending naval forces into Norwegian waters. Each side had the same idea of denying access to this strategically important area to the other. The English plan, "Operation Wilfrid", called for a force of four destroyers, covered by HMS Renown, to mine the Norwegian Inner Leads (to interrupt the vital iron ore traffic going to Germany). The Germans on the other hand were in the midst of a full-scale, sea-borne invasion of Norway itself. They committed practically the entire Kriegsmarine which, for this undertaking ("Exercise Weser"), was divided into five invasion Groups. Of these, Group 1 consisted of ten troop-carrying destroyers headed for Narvik, covered by Scharnhorst and Gneisenau (commanded by Vice-Admiral Lutjens of Bismarck fame). The ten destroyers accomplished their task of landing troops at Narvik (although all ten were subsequently wiped out in the two naval Battles of Narvik). The two German battlecruisers (OK, or *battleships* which is certainly what the Germans always called them) then headed north to make a diversionary move into Arctic waters. Meanwhile, HMS Renown was herself cruising in the same general area (Vice-Admiral W. J. Whitworth commanding). In the early hours of April 9, the two German ships were sighted from HMS Renown, silhouetted in the dawn light at great range. The British ship, slower and less well armoured, mounted 6 x 15" guns versus the Germans' combined total of 18 x 11". The key factor throughout, however, was the weather - a wild Arctic gale with huge seas. HMS Renown immediately pursued the German ships, but in the fierce storm her destroyers could not keep up so Renown proceeded to engage on her own. There ensued a ten minute exchange of fire. Renown took two 11" hits which caused superficial damage but in response she struck the Gneisenau (Lutjens' flagship) with three 15" shells, knocking out her gunnery control system and one of her turrets. However it was no part of Lutjens' orders to engage British heavy units if it could be avoided, and he turned his ships into the gale and increased speed to 28 knots. His ships took a terrible pounding from the storm but the Renown soon lost contact and the battle was over. Perhaps it had been a "close shave" for both sides! John Maine -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: b29@ix.netcom.com Subject: Re: Request for 1:1250 models Randy: Navis doesn't make any of the ships you want. ALBANY as a CGN was made by Trident Alpha (Ta10002). It has been out of production for a long time, and was a poor model. CHICAGO, (Ta100204) also out of production was quite good, but is hard to find. COONTZ was made by Hansa (S113) and can still be found second-hand without great difficulty. FORREST SHERMAN was made by Wiking (US-30), and though long out of production can also be found second hand because a lot of them were made. Finally, DEALEY was made by Trident Alpha (Ta10322) and Delphin (D76). Of the two, I recommend the TA model. Both are out of production. To obtain such models, check out the list of dealers on the 1250 Page of the Warship website, or advertise on the bulletin board in the site. Paul Jacobs 1250 Editor http://Warship.Simplenet.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "Kenneth H. Goldman" Subject: Great Eastern Okay group, does anyone know if there is an available kit of Great Eastern -- especially in her cable laying configuration? Ken Goldman -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: "Steve Sobieralski" Subject: Re: Flower Class Deck Planking >> I have the 1/72nd scale HMS Bluebell - the decks are moulded with the gaps between deck timbers standing up above the surface of the decks. How does one paint such a deck? << One of the many shortcomings of the Matchbox kit is the (poor) representation of a fully wood planked main deck. Every source I have ever seen on Flowers indicates that deck planking was limited to a section of the forecastle from a point about midway between the hawseholes and the windlass aft to the centerline of the 4" mount as well as two small areas at the aft end of the deckhouse near the stern. The rest of the deck was steel with the exception of narrow semtex walkways running fore and aft on both sides of the ship. (If you have access to the old Ensign No. 3 publication on Flowers it shows all this quite clearly.) Most of those raised seams on the deck should not be there at all. In my opinion your best course of action would be to sand them completely off and utilize wood strips for the three planked areas . Steve Sobieralski -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: "Robert Lockie" Subject: RN use of Buckley class destroyer escorts in WW2 I acquired the Skywave kit of the Buckleys last year and rather fancied building one as a long range escort. These escorts had massive racks for large quantities of depth charges down the sides and none of the photos I have seen are very clear as to the size or shape of these racks. Has anyone out there come across a decent drawing or photograph of the area and/or know of any other mods that the RN carried out to these ships? I have the Squadron Signal book on DEs, Al Ross's book on the USS England in the Anatomy of the Ship series and British Escort Ships by HT Lenton in the WW2 Fact Files series. Many thanks Robert Lockie Cambridge UK -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: "Robert Lockie" Subject: Re: KGV turret roofs in 1944 Alan Raven quotes B15 (a dark grey blue) for metal decks under the Admiralty Standard Type Schemes in Plastic Ship Modeller 1997/1. It would be consistent with practice to assume that all other horizontal metal surfaces were similarly painted. Humbrol 96 seems to be widely recommended by those who have attempted to match RN paints in the past but I cannot comment on how close Tamiya Field Blue is to the colour B15 as I do not have any. The 1929 Munsell number for B15 is 7.5B 4/2, again according to the Raven article. Robert Lockie Cambridge UK -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: "Robert Lockie" Subject: Re: HMS Belfast Damian 'The Cruiser Belfast' by Ross Watton, in Conway's Anatomy of the Ship series has several drawings of the rig in 1/200 scale for 1939, 1942, 1945 and 1959. As to camouflage, Watton states that Belfast carried Admiralty Disruptive Camouflage Type 25 after the 1942 refit, which he gives as 507A dark grey, 507C light grey, B5 dark blue-grey and B6 blue. The painting on the rear dust jacket suggests that metal decks and turret roofs were in B5, with planked decks in bare wood. Alan Raven's fine article in Plastic Ship Modeller 1997/1 suggests that for 'other horizontal surfaces (e.g. turret roofs)', 'the most common colour was probably 507A'. Raven also has bare wood decks with metal areas as being in 507A, 507B (medium grey) or MS1 (dark grey). Robert Lockie Cambridge UK -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: "mike" Subject: U.S.S. Constitution by Mamoli I'm interested in building the U.S.S. Constitution ship kit by Mamoli, and would like to know how good of a kit does Mamoli produce. This will be a advanced level for me, then I will try scratch building. Any info would be appreciated. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: "John H. Werler" <110370.665@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: HMS Lion @ Jutland I am just starting to build the 1/700 battlecruiser HMS Lion by Classic Models and I am wondering if anyone can help me out concerning the following questions. Any assistance will be appreciated. Thanks. (kit appears to be very nice; even given the controversy regarding the beam measurement). 1. I plan to complete her to the 1916 configuration at the time of Jutland which is what is indicated as the basis of the kit itself. The instructions call for a "medium blue grey" paint scheme for hull and superstructure. However, photos and models that I have seen for this period show her in what appears to be a lighter grey paint scheme for side surfaces (as opposed to a darker grey that appears common for the Grand Fleet in previous years). Although I have several references for British color schemes in WWII, I have not been able to find much in the way of WWI reference. Does anyone know of a reasonable paint match for the Lion at this time period; especially a match in the Polly S series? 2. For horizontal surfaces, the instructions call for a "chocolate brown linoleum" for superstructure decks. The only photos I can find for horizontal surfaces are three B&W photos of models (apparently from the Imperial War Museum collection) on page 153 of the book Building Warship Models by P. C. Coker. These undated photos depict HMS Lion at what appears to be close or slightly after 1916 and show what looks like an extremely dark paint on top of the superstructure and after boat shelter decks as well as the main turret tops. This would appear to be much darker than a chocolate brown in B&W. Again, any match available? 3. The kit contains no provisions for torpedo netting but my references indicate that she still carried such netting at this time. I will need to add stand-off braces and a small torpedo net shelf along each hull side. However, I am not sure how to simulate the rolled up netting itself other than to simply add plastic rod of an appropriate diameter. This may not look as convincing as something more flexible which could be constricted at tie down points. Anyone have any experience here? In parting, I just want to add that I continue to be extremely impressed by the depth of knowledge and experience that shows up on SMML and, especially, by the helpful manner in which this information is shared regardless of experience level. I find this listing fascinating and hope that the current level of quality and helpfulness continues. I'm thoroughly hooked! Still hoping to see a 1/700 kit of HMS Tiger to join the other "Big Cats" on their way to Jutland. What a diorama that would make! John Werler Houston, Texas -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Pletscher-Lenz-Schneider" Subject: WSW ASKOLD kit I just saw the first test shots of the ASKOLD kit of WSW. As I did the master it is not fair to comment the kit by myself. But I think it is a pretty good kit, and it has one surplus over the WEM kit: The gun placements can be built with open gun ports and a free look into the ship's interior or with closed gun ports. On the other hand the kit comes with no etched brass parts ( as usual with WSW kits). Falk Pletscher -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: HDente@aol.com Subject: Re: Profile Morskie Profile Morskie plan books are in stock at $11.00 each. Fuso, Scylla, Chokai, Belfast and California are in. Also in stock are Soviet Warships of the Surface Fleet, 1960 to 1983 for 38.00, and Warships of the USSR and Russia, 1945-1995 at 55.00. Shipping and handling are $4.00 under $50.00. $5.00 over $50.00, payable by check or money orderin US funds to RIS, 205 Maryland Ave, Paterson, NJ 07503 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume