Subject SMML06/01/99VOL417 Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 05:52:10 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Watching and learning 2: Re: RON29 PTs 3: Re: FUSO and BUCKLEYs 4: Re: Mail order problem solution 5: Re: Flower decking 6: Re: ElcCo PTs in RON 29 7: Re: USS Constitution by Mamoli 8: Re: RN Buckleys 9: Re: Need help 10: BWN - He no monster...He misunderstood ! 11: Ensigns, Jacks, Signal Flags And Shapes 12: Resin Warpage 13: Re: Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, & Renown 14: Re: HMS Lion at Jutland 15: Rivets 16: Type XXI U-boote 17: Flame Pages 18: Last word on the Hornet 19: Navy Log 20: [Q] Z-33 and U-47 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Potemkin and Aurora Kits by Ogonek -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS Note from Shane: Yet another apology for being late with SMML. I'm in the middle of upgrading to windoze 95(groan), which meant I'd had to re-format my HD to get rid of the OS2 warp partition & backup(100mb using msbackup on 70 discs) & restore. It took longer than I'd thought, because I forgot where I put the CD-Rom drivers. Hopefully Win 95 will be installed & running properly by tonight's SMML & it won't be another allniter :-). Sorry, Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Sheridan, John" Subject: Re: Watching and learning Rusty makes some excellent points about keeping the lines of communications open if you have a problem with a product or a question that needs to be answered by the manufacturer. Since I am the front man for Microscale Decals, I get over 20 emails per day from customers. I try my best to answer them all, but every once-in-awhile I forget to answer a question or forward the message to the home office. Hey, I'm just as human as the next guy and we sometimes become busy and, well, you know the rest. Suffice to say, you need to understand this when you send an email to a manufacturer. In this day of instant communication and instant gratification, we now expect a quick personal answer to every one of our questions. I hate to burst your bubbles but, there is person at the other end of your message who is just as busy as you are. Sometimes we forget to follow-up or respond in a timely fashion. Most model makers own a very small shop with usually 1 person doing the work of 10 people. On top of this, they also need to be their own PR department and answer questions from their customers via email, phone, and snail-mail. If you send a message and do not get a response in a timely fashion, do what I do: follow-up either by email or giving them a call. You will probably find that you have not been ignored but the manufacturer was simply either too busy or just plain forgot. And do not forget the #1 rule: Always be polite! You will get much more from us if you are polite than if you scream and rant. If you plan on sending an email to a manufacturer remember this: When you send an e-mail to a manufacturer you are 1 person asking a question. The person on the other end is 1 person answering questions from many sources. John Sheridan @ Microscale Decals http://www.microscale.com If I'm talking Decals, then I'm talking for Microscale, Otherwise I am speaking for myself. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: ALROSS2@aol.com Subject: Re: RON29 PTs There are some significant differences between the early and late series 80' ELCOs that you might want to consider during your conversion of the Revell kit. o The starboard .50 turret sits about 3' aft of the original position o The cockpit instrument panel on the later boats is quite different from the earlier boats. o Only the first few (perhaps 10) 80' boats had planked decks; from about PT 117 on, they had plywood decks. o The four THUNDERBOLT boats were PT 556-559. o I doubt that RN colors were used in lieu of Thayer Blue. o I have the original factory drawings for the THUNDERBOLT if you need reference material. Al Ross -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Baker Subject: Re: FUSO and BUCKLEYs The FUSO Anatomy book was held up by the sale of Conway's parent organization, Brasseys. The USNI Press, which was to handle to the book in the U.S.A., has told me that the book may be available by March, but it is all dependent on the British publisher sorting out its new financial situation and getting back into production. With regard for configurations on U.S.-built destroyer escorts in the British Royal Navy (where they were all referred to as the "Captain" class, regardless of U.S. classing), a new book called, appropriately enough, THE CAPTAIN class, was due out in December 1998 and was to be profusely illustrated. I have one on order from Anthony Simmonds at Greenwich, and he did carry it in his latest catalogue. Again, it had been delayed in publication, but that is not at all unusual with publishers, especially where the book is for a limited, specialist audience. A.D.Baker, III -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Mail order problem solution >> I've complained and have been promised the already paid in advance product but no sign yet. So I'm starting to plan a serious flame campaign ...because you know the old saying...do unto others as you would have them do to you. Aaron Propper modeler on the loose << Aaron, If the company you're having trouble with advertises in FSM (most of them do) you can file a complaint with them. They take this mistreatment of readers seriously. They will ban such companies from advertising in FSM because this kind of thing filters down to FSM. The last thing they want is to be blamed for someone else's bad service. If this gets around it will eventually affect their advertising rates, which is where part of their income comes. About 5 or six years back I received a letter from FSM notifying me of a complaint by a FSM reader that he sent his money but never received their catalogue. No problem, I was able to verify that it was indeed sent but probably got lost in the mail. I sent him another. The point is, FSM may be able to help IF this company advertises in FSM. Also, if this is a mail order company (I assume), you can file a complaint with your local Postmaster. The PO really takes this stuff seriously. I don't know any of the particulars, but this could be a federal crime if the transaction was made through the US Mail or delivered via the PO. They have investigators who do nothing else but follow up on complaints. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Gene Larson Subject: Re: Flower decking The current series in the Nautical Research Journal on "Flowers" by N. Roger Cole of Canada might be of some help. There are a lot of photos included. Gene Larson, Alexandria, Virginia mailto:genenrg@Naut-Res-Guild.org Nautical Research Guild, Inc. http://www.Naut-Res-Guild.org "A non-profit, tax exempt, educational organization with international membership, dedicated to maritime research and accurate ship model building." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "Robert Lockie" Subject: Re: ElcCo PTs in RON 29 According to Al Ross in Vol 2 of Allied Coastal Forces of WW2, the Elcos used in the Med, left Elco in Measure 31/5P (a green scheme) but were repainted in Measure 16 (light blue) in theatre, and he seems to know his stuff on this subject. Decks are stated as being 20-B and the usual practice was to continue this on other horizontal surfaces as well. Said book also contains a plan view and starboard elevation of a RON 29 BOAT, PT 562, in 1944, with a 40mm aft. Camouflage 1, the Floating Drydock book, confirms 20-B for horizontal surfaces in Measure 16, and includes a clear photograph of the DD USS Sampson whose horizontal surfaces are clearly darker than the verticals in this measure. The only thing that confuses me is that Measure 16 is supposed to be white 5U and Thayer blue 5B in a pattern (much like the RN Western Approaches scheme), so were the RON 29 boats in blue and white or just blue? Perhaps Al can help us out here? Robert Lockie Cambridge UK -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: KoopmaFS@utrc.utc.com Subject: Re: USS Constitution by Mamoli Hi Mike... >> I'm interested in building the U.S.S. Constitution ship kit by Mamoli, and would like to know how good of a kit does Mamoli produce. This will be a advanced level for me, then I will try scratch building. Any info would be appreciated. << I've had only a limited experience with them. Several years ago my parents bought me their BOUNTY.(My mother can be a big spender around Christmas. With student loans and car loans there's no way I can afford to spend more than 200 hundred dollars on a single kit) For all that money, what I found in the box, hhhmmmm, not sure it was worth THAT much. It contained enough materials for the single planking, yet as I continued with the hull I discovered that it didn't have enough to be double planked. The kit materials included several woods other than basswood that were pretty, but like the mahogany, a pain to work with. Other than that the quality of the materials were good. The real downfall of the kit was the directions and the accuracy. There were several areas of the instructions in which it was obvious that they had never really done a test of their own construction methods. I managed to see several problems ahead of time and devise my own approach to the them. But there were still several instances, particularly while planking the deck, that there were mating and overlap problems with their bulwark construction method. The rigging diagrams needed to be thrown out. Yeah, it was neat and complex looking, but almost completely fictitious. No ship rigged in that fashion could actually be handled properly under sail. Certain aspects of detailing such as sheer breaks, the beakhead rails, and decorative carvings were also off the mark (white metal and brass castings included were clean and excellent, but of the completely wrong subject matter). Looking at the picture of the buildup in their catalog shows a completely different set of castings. Maybe they're a different generation kit, who knows. The solution to both of these was to get the Anatomy of the Ship series book on the BOUNTY to help me rig it properly, and create my own Carvings out of boxwood. At that point I may as well have been scratchbuilding since the only thing used, that they produced, were the laser cut plywood bulkheads, and the basswood planking that woulkd have been avilable less expensively at my local model shops. However, as I mentioned earlier this was a completely different subject kit than the one your looking for. I simply put forth my experiences with this kit, and I've heard that other modelers are also having similar problems many of Mamolis' other kits. My personal experience with wood ship kits, has been that you may be better off to see if Model Shipways has a Constitution kit (I haven't seen one of their catologs recently, so I have no idea if they make one or not). I've built three of their kits, two solid carved hull (Gjoa, a kit that they produced in the late sixties, and their more recent SULTANA), and another was plank on bulkhead (RATTLESNAKE). When it comes to historical accuracy, ease of construction, and value per dollar I've found them to be far superior. I'm not sure if this long winded response is what you wanted to hear, but I hope it helps, one way or another. Good Luck, and Happy New Year Fritz -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: RN Buckleys Robert: The book you want to lay hands on is Peter Elliott's _Allied Escort Ships of World War II_ (1977). There are several good photos of the depth charge racks on the long-range escort versions, plus some elevation line drawings that show some other dc rack and thrower arrangements. If you have trouble finding a copy, let me know and I'll send you xeroxes of the appropriate pages. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: Need help Steve: For Mare Island NSY (oldest naval shipyard on the West Coast, now closed), try contacting the Mare Island Museum for plans and photos. You should be able to find them through information (Vallejo, California, Area Code 707). If you have trouble, let me know and I'll track them down for you. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Steven Rogers Subject: BWN - He no monster...He misunderstood ! Shows to go...I have had only excellent service from Mike Bishop. So far, I've bought his Perry class frigate, Burke class DDG, and a Russian sub. I also have his 1/350 decal sheets. I purchased direct off his site at the NAVIS page. The SoDak is next!!! I need a few more pennies to complete my Nov. 1942 campaign. Damn the torpedoes... Steve Rogers -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: John Burch Subject: Ensigns, Jacks, Signal Flags And Shapes SMML01/01/99Vol412 raised an issue (item #3 by Duane Fowler) regarding British Ensigns. I wanted to see if the topic could be broadened to include a general overview of the subject of ensigns, jacks, signal flags and shapes, etc., for the Naval powers (for WW II and postwar). I have been a ship modeler for over forty years, and have never really seen any overview of the subject. I have been tremendously impressed with the general fund of knowledge represented by the SMMLers and thought that this might be a good topic where we could learn a lot from each other. A couple of things that started me thinking about this; one, was the fact that few of the 1/700 scale kits that I have built provide a battle gaff, from which an ensign can be flown(so I have to add them); second, is that the GMM flag decal sheet for 1/700 and 1/350 provides the Australian National Flag, but not the RAN Ensign; third, cover art for various kits (e.g. Skywave J-4 YUGUMO, and J-2 ASAGUMO) show ships steaming along with the Ensign flown from the flagstaff, aft, and not from the battle gaff (this is not correct USN practice but might be correct for the JMSDF). To get this topic going let me outline what I know (or think I know): ENSIGNS: The RN flies the White Ensign. The RAN flies a White Ensign without the red cross of St. George on the field, but shows the stars of the Southern Cross (same as national flag) in dark blue. The USN ensign is identical to the national flag (Stars and Stripes). The IJN and JMSDF ensign is the Rising Sun flag. In port, when in commission, and during daylight hours, the ensign is flown from the flag staff at the stern. On getting underway, a call is made to “Shift Colors” and the ensign is hoisted to the battle gaff (located on a high arm of the mainmast or foremast), while concurrently the ensign at the stern flagstaff is lowered (and crew stands at attention). Upon docking and securing from sea, the reverse process is followed. In port, the ensign is raised or lowered at dawn and dusk, respectively. JACKS: The RN jack is the Union Jack (Crosses of St. George, St. Andrew and St. Patrick on dark blue background). I believe, but am not sure, that the RAN uses the same jack as the RN. The USN jack is also referred to as a “Union Jack” but is dark blue with the same arrangement of white stars as the national flag (exceptions: in 1976, the bicentennial year, all USN ships flew the “Rattlesnake Flag”, the first American Naval Ensign, as the jack; subsequently, the oldest commissioned ship in the USN flies the “Rattlesnake Flag” as the Jack). The IJN and JMSDF jack is the “Hinomaru” (red circle on a white field). In port, when in commission, and during daylight hours the jack is flown from the jack staff at the bow. On getting underway, a call is made to “Shift Colors” and while the ensign is hoisted to the battle gaff the jack at the bow is lowered. Upon docking and securing from sea, the reverse process is followed. I believe, but am not sure that the jack is raised and lowered at dawn and dusk, the same as the ensign. Jacks are only flown when not underway. SIGNAL FLAGS and SHAPES: I know very little about this subject. I do believe that when conducting Flight Operations the “Fox” flag (red diamond on a white field) is flown from port and starboard signal halyards; this would be correct practice for aircraft carriers or “small boys” conducting flight ops with helos, and probably applied when battleships or cruisers launched or recovered seaplanes. When towed arrays are deployed (i.e. left streamed behind a ship) “shapes” (I don’t know what shapes or numbers) are flown from port and starboard signal halyards to warn ships that might cross the stern and hazard cutting the towed array. I believe “shapes” are flown to indicate a ship is out of control (lost steering control), but I don’t know what these shapes (or sizes) look like. Questions: 1) Either in the movie or the book “Pursuit of the Graf Spee”, I remember a reference to HMS EXETER flying four Battle Ensigns when engaging GRAF SPEE; where would these have been flown from? Are Battle Ensigns noticeably larger than a normal ensign? Was this normal RN practice for the WW II period? 2) http://warship.simplenet.com/images/Helena/Helena%20Tulagi%20before%20sinking.jpg shows USS HELENA (Last photo before being sunk at Kula Gulf) flying the jack (and appearing to be at anchor) but flying the ensign from the battle gaff). Why isn’t the ensign flying from the flag staff, aft? Is this correct practice for wartime (but not “peacetime” as we have experienced it for the last 50 some years)? 3) Is the cover art for Skywave J-4 YUGUMO, and J-2 ASAGUMO, showing them underway with ensigns flying from the flagstaff, correct or incorrect for the JMSDF? 4) What are the actual dimensions of ensigns and signal flags? I can scale to 1/700, 1/350 or any modeling scale, given the actual dimensions.( I have a Power Point file that I created with the RN, RAN and USN ensigns that I use with a Canon BJC-210 color printer. Printer resolution limits me to fairly large ensigns in 1/700 scale. I think the simpler signal flags could be dealt with satisfactorily.) 5) Besides the “Fox” flag for flight ops, which I believe is required by International Rules of the Road, are there other standard signal flags which should be included when modeling a ship in a tactical or other special situation (as in a diorama)? 6) Is there anyone able to provide a description of the “shapes” flown for deployed towed arrays (again, I believe required by International Rules of the Road) and “not under control” situations? Are “shapes” flown when a FOXER, FANFARE, NIXIE or other towed decoy is deployed? 7) I remember when going to sea in USS McINERNEY (FFG 8) in June 1987, for post refit trials, she flew an individual unit flag (which I had never seen or heard done in the USN before). Any one else seen this? 8) Why is the battle gaff on WW II FLETCHERs and IOWAs (to mention only two examples) mounted low on the after stack? 9) What practice do other navies, such as the RCN/Canadian Forces, French Navy, Kriegsmarine/Bundesmarine and Italian Navy follow regarding ensigns, jacks, etc.? Thanks in advance for any and all responses. Hopefully others can raise questions that I haven't thought of on this topic. John A. Burch -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Rob & Heather Weilacher Subject: Resin Warpage I have aquired a kit which appears to be warped - it is a Classic Warships 1944 San Francisco in 1/700. The rear deck (after the large rear superstructure) bows upward quite noticably. I have heard stories of using hot or warm water... how does one go about straighting this hull ? Rob -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Sanartjam@aol.com Subject: Re: Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, & Renown Hello SMML, I think John Maine provided a very good description of the April 1940 engagement between the Renown and the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. If anyone wants to do a little more reading, there are descriptions of the battle in Garzke & Dulin's book on Axis and Neutral Battleships of WWII (still in print), Raven & Roberts' British Battleships of WWII (out of print, but there were a lot printed), and Peter C. Smith's book on the Renown, "Hit First, Hit Hard" (out of print and very hard to find), to name a few. I realize the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were often referred to as battleships by the Kriegsmarine, but that is strange since they were announced as 26,000 tons, which I think was the treaty limit for battlecruisers, not battleships (whose limit was 35,000 tons). Also, calling something a battleship does not make it so; a true battleship would have had deck armor sufficient to keep a 14" shell out of her machinery spaces, but such a hit doomed the Scharnhorst at the Battle of the North Cape. Incidentally, by April 1940 the Renown had deck armor from 2" up to 4," but she had not yet had a Type 284 gunnery radar added (that was not until the fall of 1941). Now will someone PLEASE put out a kit of the Renown! Cheers, Art Nicholson -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "Robert J. Mitchell" Subject: Re: HMS Lion at Jutland Somewhere in my collection I have a photo of Lion, minus Q turret which would be in the period immediately after the battle. I'm pretty certain the that the torpedo nets have gone and the ship is 'medium' grey with no panel. I can't see the turret roofs but I would hazard a guess that the dark grey areas would have been painted in pre-war Home fleet Dark Grey, which has been described as being so dark it's almost black. The corticene which is a type of linolium is of ten described as being the colour of 'Milk Chocolate'. I use Humbrol dark earth. I have Lord Chatfields biography which devotes several chapters to his time in Command of Lion, and if anything comes to light I will let you know. There was actually a three part article on scratchbuilding Queen Mary in Marine Modelling. You can build Princess Royal from the Lion Kit without too much trouble but Queen Mary is slight bigger and has round funnels. Oh!, for a kit of Tiger, I'll have to add her to my wish-list. Hope this is of some help. Bob Mitchell -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "Kenneth H. Goldman" Subject: Rivets I guess I'm a glutton for punishment. I'm building a a 1:48 Turbinia and need to know if anyone has perfected a method of making rivets on the hull plates other than applying drops of CA and crossing one's fingers that the dots come out uniform. Ken Goldman THE WALRUS AND THE CARPENTER http://www.wman.com/~khgold/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Tom Eisenhour Subject: Type XXI U-boote Greetings, all and Happy New Year! What camouflage would Type XXIs have worn in 1945? Thanks, Tom -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "Millen, Alan R." Subject: Flame Pages Bravo, Shane, for not letting the SMMiLey pages become a soapbox format. I have acquired several BWN kits, have not built any as time is no longer totally my own since getting married, but they are really beautiful kits. I have no issue with Mr. Bishop, and can only hope, before any judgement is made, that ALL sides get equal time for rebuttal. Thanks for all the time and effort you're putting into this, Shane. Any ETA on the more of the archives? Alan R. Millen Note from Shane Re: SMML Archives The rest of the archives should be up sometime in the new year. Sorry, I've got no idea when. Just make sure you've got plenty of reading time when they do :-) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: JGordon262@aol.com Subject: Last word on the Hornet >> Actually Hornet is down at the ex-Alameda Naval Air Station and is now open to the public. << Ok, hold on a second... I'm opening my window, sticking my head out, and peering down the street.... YES! The Hornet is still here! The Hornet looks great from a distance, but up close you can see flaws such as glue blobs, fingerprints, and dust stuck in the paint. The overall color is too glossy, and it is obvious they used pastel chalks for rust stains, and they put it in the wrong places. I must say though, the figures are excellent. Suffering from IPMS syndrome, Jim Gordon Alameda, CA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: John Snyder Subject: Navy Log In light of our recent discussion of that 1955 TV show on SMML, it's interesting that there is a letter to the editor in the current issue of USNI Proceedings on the same subject, written by a (woman) secondary school teacher who went looking for the series to show to her students (she was writing to Proceedings to suggest the Navy should consider what Navy Log did to provide examples of "leadership, inventiveness, determination, and courage for today's youth"). Anyway, she found that the films were produced privately, with Navy Department assistance, are currently listed in the USNI catalog for "internal use of the Navy only", and that the films themselves are apparently in storage at Norton Air Force Base. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guye -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: "Ingebrethsen, Kyrre" Subject: [Q] Z-33 and U-47 Hi gang. Before I start, I'd like to introduce myself, as the life on the net tends to be a bit unpersonal. My name is Kyrre Ingebrethsen, I'm 26 with 15 years of active modelling behind me. I work as an air traffic controller at Evenes, Northern Norway. The airport is near the coastline of the Ofotfjord, where the battles of Narvik were fought, which, in a way, I find thrilling. The Georg Thiele is still lying bows up in Rombak Fjord, and the mountains are littered with He 111's, Gladiator's and Skua's (That's planes, but although this is SMML, I guess you knew that.:-) Although my main interrest lies in things with wings, I also like ship modelling, if the scale isn't too small. Finding the SMML was a good thing, as threads on the RMS tends to become a bit weird and unserious. (I must admit I'm part of that, I go under the name Zapper on Rec.Models.Scale.:-) Anyroads, I have two questions, both related to German ops in Norwegian waters: 1. I've got the Z-31 kit from Heller with GMM rails, radars and stuff. I'd like to build the Z-33 as she was at the time of the "Black Friday" (It was Friday, wasn't it?). I've tried to look through my references for info, without luck. So I'm turning to you guys, hoping this hasn't been covered a billion times b4. So; which guns should I use, what radar, what colours and camouflage and if you'd be so kind and add "any other pertinent remarks" I'd be very happy. 2. Günter Prien roamed these waters in April '40. From my window back home in Harstad I can see the point where U-47 got stuck on a sandbank April 16, just off the island of Rolla. He managed to get afloat again after cunningly leading the allied ships present to believe he was British by using light morse signals. That's the story as I know it. Has anyone anything to add? I just read this in a local book, and I was wondering if this is the official story? To add some modelling to this, could you tell me the state of the U-boot at this time? Did he still have the bull on the conning-tower? How about colours and camouflage? If you have any URL's to add, I'd be happy. Yup, that was my first post to SMML. I shoot from the hips and ask questions. Hopefully I'm doing it right...:-) Regards, Kyrre Ingebrethsen Harstad, Norway Yep, you're doing it right "Zapper" :-). Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: RCClem@aol.com Subject: Potemkin and Aurora Kits by Ogonek Someone on this list a while back was looking for these kits. I was at my local hobby shop today and noticed that he had one of each of these. I already have both of these kits, but I paid more than the sticker he put on these. I'd like to see these kits move quickly so that he is encouraged to stock the more unusual models, instead of the standard Revell Arizona and Missouri, etc. If you are interested, contact me off List and I could give you the number and name of the shop or buy them myself and ship them to you for cost. You have to promise to be a builder, not a speculator that would just post them on ebay for profit. Roger Clemens Hinsdale, Illinois -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume