Subject SMML08/01/99VOL419 Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 00:21:37 +1100 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Modern royal navy colors 2: Rigging problems and other thoughts 3: Re: Straightening resin 4: Re: Titanic to Olympic 5: Re: PT boat colors 6: F***** Class decking 7: Flag Deportment 8: scale ship yard and BaD ship models 9: Moving from modelling in 1/350 to 1/700 10: Re: HMS Lion at Jutland 11: Re: WEM 1/700 Askold air bubble 12: Re: Fuso and Yamashiro Anatomy book 13: HMTS Olympic, #2810 14: Re: Scale Ship Modeler Magazine 15: Explaining Black Friday 16: Re: HMS Canada -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Re: WSW ASKOLD kit -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: EMSR569@aol.com Subject: Modern royal navy colors I need some help finding a good match in 1/700 scale for royal navy gray(late 50's to today). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Keith Butterley Subject: Rigging problems and other thoughts Hi all, Hope everybody had a wonderful holiday season, for the record I received the Airfix Warspite, a book I would highly recommend to my fellow Maple Leafs: The Canadian Naval Chronicles 1939-1945 and best of all, a scanner. So be forewarned OK on to business. I have been rigging my latest project a rebuild of the Matchbox "K" class destroyer (Kelly or Kipling, I chose the latter) using WEM PE. It seems when I get a line tight on one side it causes the line going the same way to go slack. I was wondering if anybody could reccommend a way around this problem. But on the other hand every picture you see of a ships rigging the lines are not what you would call taught, there is always some slack. That brings me to this question, what is the groups consensus, if any, when putting a model in a contest should the lines be rigid? The reason I mention this, is that at the local IPMS there are only a very, very, small handful of ship modelers. Therfore all the judges are armour and aircraft types and they seem to like the tight lines. Which is fine because at least you know the ground rules going in, but I woud certainly like to hear what everybody thinks about this. Happy New Year Keith Butterley -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Burl Burlingame / Pacific Monograph Subject: Re: Straightening resin Aloha If your microwave is big enough, warped resin can be straightened there. Microwaves heat from the inside out, so if the part feels warm, it's HOT inside. Use SHORT bursts of about 10 seconds, until the part is flexible, then tape or clamp it to a flat surface for several hours and leave it alone. Burl Burlingame Pacific Monograph, 1124 Kahili Street, Kailua HI 96734 A historical interpretation company. Visit our web site at http://www.PacificHistory.com/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Burl Burlingame / Pacific Monograph Subject: Re: Titanic to Olympic Aloha I'm interested in this thread as I'd like to do the same thing! While I've seen many photos of Olympic's dazzle scheme from the port side, I've not seen any from starboard. The two sides were different patterns, and the Admiralty changed patterns on occasion so the ships could not be ID'd from their patterns. Did Olympic carry any guns or other tophamper? Burl Burlingame Pacific Monograph, 1124 Kahili Street, Kailua HI 96734 A historical interpretation company. Visit our web site at http://www.PacificHistory.com/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: CaptainOD@aol.com Subject: Re: PT boat colors A long time ago I was involved in restoration of military vehicles, and one area that was researched and might be a source of information on Robin Egg Blue/light Blue use on the PT boats. To make a long story short, there were during WW2 no "Navy gray" vehicles, landing craft, Amphibious Tractors, etc, as we know it, they were painted in Aviation paint called Intermediate Blue, a color which is can be described as Robin Egg or Light Blue with a gray cast. This color was to used on equipment near the beach/shore line. Many small Naval boats, landing craft, and other auxiliaries were painted in this color which was already a standard in the Navy inventory supply system. I don't know if later PT's were painted using this aircraft color but there is certainly a pattern of its use for boats. Other early 70 footers were described as light blue when delivered to the Philippines. Bob O'Donovan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Tom Dean Subject: F***** Class decking One of our fellow modelers mentioned earlier that the best thing to do would be to sand off the representative wooden decking. He is absolutely right! Not only is it poorly done, but it in no way represents the ships as built or any conversion done. I am sorry, but I erased that particular daily message so I can not refer to him by name. As was stated the only obvious wooden decking was on the area of fo's'cle from about the centre of the 4" gun to just abaft the hawspipes. Wooden decking was used on the bridge, boat deck, and an area on quarterdeck, between the engineroom housing and the depth charge rails, especially on the ships that were at one time fitted for sweeping. Having said that, most of this except for the open bridge, ended up being removed at some time or another leaving bare steel plating. In pics these plates are very obvious and easy to represent with styrene sheeting. Later in the war as mentioned they were covered in various walkway patterns in symtex or like materials. This particular model represents the Corvettes from the 1939-40 program as they appeared after major refits. Extended fo's'cle, 271 radar lantern, more AAA etc. Do not make the mistake of trying to use the kit to represent more than these ships without thinking of extensive "kit bashing" In the case of the Royal Canadian Navy, only 10 ships are suitable to represent. They were built for the RN but nevered turned over and remained in Canadian service. I have been asked for advice on this kit a number of times and always offer this. Limit the ship you are representing to this period and batch. I have seen too many finished exactly to the instructions and then finished with a pendant number of ships that looked nothing like it. Research the particular ship as much as possible. No two Flowers are exactly the same at any give point in time. If possible try to find copies of any or all of the following pubs. "Corvettes of the Royal Canadian Navy" (Macpherson-Milner). "The Flower Class Corvette AGASSIZ" (McKay-Harland). "Canada's Flowers" (Lynch) They will improve the accuracy of your model ten fold. Tom Dean Hamilton, Ontario Canada -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Tom Dean Subject: Flag Deportment Regarding the request for information on the usage of flags the following is for the Canadian Navy. If representing a Canadian ship prior to 1965 use the following. In harbour, white ensign at the stern, blue (Canadian) ensign at the jack staff. The blue ensign had the union flag in the corner of a royal blue flag with the arms of the Dominion of Canada in the fly. 1961-1965 same as above with the Canadian Red Ensign at the masthead. Red Ensign same as blue only had the coat of arms of Canada at the fly. All this changed in 1965 when ships and establishments lowered the white ensign and replaced it with the new National Flag of Canada. Believe me there wasn't a dry eye in the fleet that day, I know I was there. For a few years (?) in harbour the Canadian flag was flown at both the ensign and jack positions. The one at the ensign being on size large than the one at the jack. For example a destroyer would fly an 8breadth at the ensign and a 6 breadth at the jack. In the late 60's ships started flying the flag of Maritime Command at the jack. This was a white flag, Canadian flag at the upper corner of the staff and the emblem of maritime command at the fly. (Fouled anchored, superimposed by the air command eagle topped with a crown-all in royal blue) This was replaced a few years ago by the Naval Jack which has slight variations but is quite similar. That is how things stand now. As far as deportment it is similar to most western navies. When in harbour, ensign and jack, 0800 until sunset. All raised and lowered together by all ships with the appropriate fan fare. Worn as per custom of harbour in which ship is visiting. When leaving harbour the jack is struck when the last line leaves the jetty. The ensign is kept in postion until clearing harbour or while underway in pilotage waters, then it is shifted to the sea position, (varies from class to class but usually highest point available on the mast) where it is flown at all times. The reverse when entering harbour. Ensign shifted to ensign staff when in harbour entrance and jack raised when first line secured. There are several different combinations of this as fits a ceremonial occassion. Can't describe them all here as the "Bunting Tossers" went to school for ages to learn all this stuff! Of course they had to, thats why they werent "Sparkers"!! Hope this helps a bit, rather than confuse Tom Dean Hamilton, Ontario Canada -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: BILL HENSLER Subject: scale ship yard and BaD ship models I love large ships. I like to sail them on the local ponds in Columbus. Currently, I want to build the BaD ship model U.S.S. Brooke frigate. BaD makes a simple kit for a reasonable price. I was thinking of getting that kit and then ordering a hull from scale ship yard. This way I'ld have a full kit. The price of fitting the Scale Ship yard kit would nearly pay for the price of th BaD kit. I've ordered stuff from Scale Ship Yard. Some days Lee is good. Some days Lee flirts with getting a complaint from me to the US Postal service to shut down his company for mail fraud. Anybody ever build a large scale ship from both BaD ship models and Scale Ship yard and "bash" both of the kits together? For the aggregate cost of $200, a 1/96 scale Brooke is quite reasonable and seems like a fairly good deal when you check out the prices for the resin kits that go for $300 or more. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Lee Francis Wilhelmsen Subject: Moving from modelling in 1/350 to 1/700 Hi list Lately I've been modelling in 1/350 scale, but have now fould that I would like to try 1/700, mainly for 4 reasons * Storage space * Price * Overall model selection * Time/effort between starting subjects (big models = much time?) For this reason I've been looking around at various 1/700 modells, GMM kits etc. I was thinking about starting with the 1/720 Italeri Ark Royal (WWII). Has anyone built this model? Does anyone else make a better 1/700 Ark Royal? How accurate is the scale (is 1/720 really 1/700 and will I notice any difference?) What kind of photoetching sets would you recomend for building this set? (I've noticed that 1/700 sets are less model specific and therefore more "general" than 1/350, meaning that one PE set can be using on several types of models. Correct?) I'd like to add extra planes (preferably swordfish). Who makes the best? Oh well, I suppose that's enough daft questions for today. Take care! Best regards Lee Francis Wilhelmsen Stavanger, Norway -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Max Loosli Subject: Re: HMS Lion at Jutland >> ..... There was actually a three part article on scratchbuilding Queen Mary in Marine Modelling. << Bob, Do you have any idea of the dates/volume numbers/issues this was done in, and what scale? I think I'd like to try and get backorders if they do them. I am scratchbuilding (sort of) a 1/350 HMS Lion and when (if) I finish I will probably try HMS Queen Mary or may be HMS Tiger or maybe HMS Princess Royal or maybe ............ sorry, got carried away there, I have this 'thing' for battlecruisers ! Best regards to the list for 1999, only two years to go to the millennium Max -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "Caroline Carter" Subject: Re: WEM 1/700 Askold air bubble Hi Guys, We're now back from Colorado....... although our skis are still in Denver.. shame we never got to meet Dan Jones on this occasion (definitely next time, Dan, when we have transport!), but a Happy New Year to all!! 235 E-Mails await our attention, and I have 16 SMMLlie sessions to trawl through this evening.. Just a quickie post re Pieter's Askold kit about the airbubbles near the casting gate, this is always a potential problem with any resin kit due to the nature of the beast. Airbubbles can form just inside the casting gate just below the surface. Usually removing the casting sprue iis one of the first jobs that any modeller wil do so the problem is quickly apparent if it does exist. 9 times out of 10 if a bubble is present it is small enough to sort out with a little filler. If however, you do find a large void lurking under the spriue, we will of course replace the casting if necessary. Best Regards, Caroline Carter, Business Manager, White Ensign Models, http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Caroline Carter" Subject: Re: Fuso and Yamashiro Anatomy book Hi Michael, The last news we heard before Christmas was that the book had been delayed until February ( I think it is already 2 years overdue.. we have a ton of back orders for this book at this time, with more arriving daily). BTW, for eveeryone's information, Conways have described it as follows: 320 pages, 890 detail drawings 35.00 pounds (U.K. recommended retail) Best Regards, Caroline Carter Business Manager, White Ensign Models http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Duane Fowler Subject: HMTS Olympic, #2810 The Olympic had at least three different paint schemes during the war. In the first, she had her white sections painted medium grey, her funnels painted dark grey, and her hull left black. She appears in a photograph at Mudros in that scheme with the unit number "2810" on a large red board across the front of A deck below the bridge. She also had the number "267" on a large board attached to the railings on either side of the forecastle. Later she was painted in two very distinct dazzle patterns. The first was more angular while the second had more curves. The colors were primarily black, white, blue, red, and yellow. Sometimes two different intensities of the primary colors were used. In the hand colored photograph that you mentioned taken from an aircraft is not very accurate. It is of the Olympic in her second dazzle camouflage scheme. If you compare it to the actual black and white image, you will notice that several areas are shaded differently than the hand colored image would suggest. The fourth funnel has at least three distinctly different shades of grey and yet the hand colored image shows only two different colors. The photograph is very interesting in that it is the only one that I know of that shows even a small portion of the starboard side in the second dazzle scheme. It also shows good detail of the topside of the ship, although a lot is covered by the thousands of troops on board. The deck guns and life boats and rafts are very obvious. More is known about the first dazzle scheme. There are photographs of both sides and there is even a water color painting to show the colors used (dark and light blue predominated). The antifouling paint was untouched during the ware, as far as I know. There does not seem to have been any boot topping paint applied, either. The camouflage paints were applied very quickly and often were not of the best quality. There are even reports (unconfirmed) that house paints may have been used. I have several photographs and references for the Olympic, as well as a decal set for the conversions. Let me know if there is anything else I can help with. Best regards, Duane Fowler -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Gene Larson Subject: Re: Scale Ship Modeler Magazine RVanda1839@aol.com >> Just talked to a lady at the subscription office for Challenge Publications. --- the lady said they are going to bring back SSM with the May/June 99 issue. I wonder--do ship modelers have a lobby group or a Patron Saint looking over our interests? << I think enough of us wrote enough letters and e-mails to get the point across! When I called today (thanks for number) I was told that the December 98 issue (Vol 24 #10) of Scale R/C (current name) has been out for some time. I did not receive my issue, and the lady said that there are no "back issues" available. They did not print enough for some reason. There is no excuse for this situation, but---. Does anyone have a copy they are willing to sell? Perhaps some do not keep issues after reading them. Since Scale Ship Modeler is coming back I would like to keep my set complete. Gene Larson, Alexandria, Virginia mailto:genenrg@Naut-Res-Guild.org Nautical Research Guild, Inc. http://www.Naut-Res-Guild.org "A non-profit, tax exempt, educational organization with international membership, dedicated to maritime research and accurate ship model building." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "Ingebrethsen, Kyrre" Subject: Explaining Black Friday Just to clarify, without reference at hand: It was called Black Friday because of an attack on Z-33 on the western coast of Norway, near Foerde, and Gossen airfield. The attack was made by Beau's from 404 and Mustangs from 65 Squadron (as I recall). A couple of Mustangs, several Beaufighters and I think two German FW's were downed. Z-33 was literally unharmed. So because of the allied losses, it was named thereafter. It might have been in '44, but like I said, I don't recall at without the books in front of me. The books are back home, I'm at work... Regards, Kyrre Ingebrethsen -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Ron or Julie Hillsden Subject: Re: HMS Canada The Maritime Museum of BC has the "ship's crest" (sorry, I don't know what else to call it - it's made of iron, about 3 feet tall, was fitted on the bow). May want to give them a try: http://MMBC.BC.CA/ Ron in Victoria BC 8C rain -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Caroline Carter" Subject: Re: WSW ASKOLD kit Hi Falk, Hi SMMLlies (again!) Regarding Falk's previous message, >> I just saw the first test shots of the ASKOLD kit of WSW. As I did the master it is not fair to comment the kit by myself. But I think it is a pretty good kit, and it has one surplus over the WEM kit: The gun placements can be built with open gun ports and a free look into the ship's interior or with closed gun ports. << Not completely true! Of the 16 hull gun embrasures on the vessel, our kit has the option of modelling 12 of these in the open position, with the armoured flaps being included as photoetched components. The four broadside hull guns we only give as closed due to the difficulty of casting open voids into the sides of the hull. >> On the other hand the kit comes with no etched brass parts( as usual with WSW kits). << For any modeller who decides that they do prefer the WSW kit, the photoetched brass from our version is available separately. Whilst this is of course designed around our own kit, I am sure that most of the components would fit the WSW kit. Check it out at the following location: http://whiteensignmodels.simplenet.com/askold/askold.htm Best Regards, Caroline Carter Business Manager, White Ensign Models http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume