Subject: SMML23/01/99VOL434 Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 03:38:22 +1100 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Calibre & Hood 2: Meaning of 5"/38 caliber 3: Re: 40mm BOFORS and 5"/38 4: Re: 5"/38 caliber 5: Re: 5"/38 nomenclature 6: Re: 5"/38 cal. 7: Re: Yamato turret tops 8: German Catapult Ships (continued) 9: Midway Carriers 10: Re: naval gun calibre 11: Re: KGV book 12: Re: Calibre 13: Benson class DDs 14: Re: Resin vs Plastic comparison 15: Re: Civil War flags 16: Liberty ship question 17: Re: Gun Caliber measurement 18: Calibers 19: Re: Dreadnought and Jutland 20: Re: 5"/38 Gun Barrels 21: Re: Gun caliber 22: Re: Helo Hangars on FFG 23: Re: ZUIHO question 24: US Navy Weapon models 25: Re: KGV BOOK 26: Books and model -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Camouflage 2: The latest Buzz. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Morley, James (London)" Subject: Calibre & Hood My understanding is that Calibre (or "...ber" if you prefer) is a measurement of barrel length relative to bore. Thus 5"38 Cal implies a bore of 5" and a barrel length of 38 x 5" = 190" or 4.82 metres. If I'm wrong, I've just made something of an idiot of myself!!! Re: the Tamiya Hood in 1/350.... if this is correct (unlikely), would someone please ring them up and tell them to stop that immediately (there are 2 excellent resin versions already) and get on with the 1/350 Nimitz (and sisters) that is otherwise going to go down as one of the most obvious unkitted large scale warships of all time. I mean really, what possessed them to select Enterprise?????? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: BSteinIPMS@aol.com Subject: Meaning of 5"/38 caliber Norman Samish writes: >> I have a Dumb Question: If a naval gun is called a 5"/38 cal, I assume that means it has a 5" bore, but I don't know what the "38 cal" means. If it meant 0.38 feet, that would be 4.56 inches, which isn't 5. So I'm baffled. Somebody enlighten me, please. << That's not a dumb question, Norman. It baffled me for quite a while, too. Simply stated, caliber (or calibre, if you are of British persuasion) is the length of the gun barrel in multiples of the bore. In this case, a 5"/38 cal. gun has a bore of 5 inches and the length of the barrel is 38 x 5" = 190", or 15.83 feet. The U.S. Navy used this designation system for most of their naval guns and rifles. Bob Steinbrunn Minneapolis (Where he learns with dismay that more snow, sleet, freezing rain, drizzle, slush, freezing mist, and ice pellets are headed towards his driveway this afternoon....) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Ed Grune Subject: Re: 40mm BOFORS and 5"/38 Hello all First of all -- Bravo Rusty! I anxiously await your 40mm BOFORS. Secondly, Norman ... you're partially right with the designation for the 5"/38. The barrel diameter is 5 inches. The 38 means that the barrel is 38x5" long or a shade over 15 3/4 feet. Friedman's US Naval Weapons discusses ordnance designations. Ed Mansfield TX (where its supposed to turn cold today ... down to the 50s) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Millen, Alan R." Subject: Re: 5"/38 caliber I believe, from way back in the dark recesses of the past, I had read that the "Caliber" was a way of referencing the length of the weapon. In other words, you take the 5 inch, multiply it by 38, and come up with a barrel length of 190", or 15' 10". A 4'/50 is 200 " long, or 16' 8". I don't know if this referred to the length from muzzle to end of breach, or only the length of the rifled portion, or ?. On the subject of dream large scale weapons, how about a 1/48 scale BB or CA aircraft catapult? Maybe even one on a turret??!! And why would Tamiya produce a 1/350 Essex? There is a workable Essex out there, the Lindberg kit. Altough not state-of-the-art, it isn't TOO bad. Why not a Lexington/Saratoga? Ranger? Wasp (the first)? a CVL or CVE? Would like to see 1/72 Higgins, Huckins, early and late Elcos, a 77' Elco. Am I dreaming?? But, then, since marrying and buying a "fixer-upper", I haven't BUILT anything in a couple of years, only acquired them, much to the chagrin of my bride. She has set her foot down," NO MORE UNTIL YOU BUILD SOMETHING YOU ALREADY HAVE!" Sigh!!!!!!!!! Alan R. Millen Hey Alan, Make sure your wife doesn't see this post then :-)). Ooops, Lorna just read this over my shoulder and she agrees. AARRGGHH!!! Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "RLOCKIE" Subject: Re: 5"/38 nomenclature The first figure refers to the calibre, the second to the length of the bore in calibres. Thus a 5"/38 gun has a barrel 5"x38=190" long. Other 5" guns in USN service had shorter (5"/25, 125") or longer (5"/54, 270") barrels. It is a useful way of distinguishing between ordnance without quoting the mark number. In land service equipment, length in calibres is often expressed as L/, hence 8.8cm L/56 for the famous '88' flak gun. Robert Lockie Cambridge UK -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: 5"/38 cal. In US gun terminology, the caliber portion refers to barrel length in multiples of bore diameter. So, a 5"/38 has a barrellength of 38x5", or 190" (15.8 feet). John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Ship Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: " F J Hueso" Subject: Re: Yamato turret tops To Mike Connelley: Regarding the question you posed, you can see photos 7 (p. 26) and 18 (p.30) as it appears that both forward turrets had the same shade. May be the darker shade of turret 1 (photo 8) was the effect of the bomb exploding near it? About the Type 89 guns, I'm unable, as you , to confirm one theory or another but as in other ships they are grey and the type 89 enclosed mounts appears to be grey (look at the photo1, Yamato fitting out at Kure), I think you are correct about the grey as their colour. Best regards Javier Madrid (not so cold and not so dry now) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Pletscher-Lenz-Schneider" Subject: German Catapult Ships (continued) MS SCHWABENLAND Built 1925 at Deutsche Werke AG, Kiel, for DDG Hansa, Bremen, as S/S SCHWARZENFELS. Bought by the Lufthansa in July 1934 and rebuilt similary to WESTFALEN. Differing from her predecessor, her catapult, a Heinkel-K-7, was positionend on the quaterdeck with storing facilities for aircraft on both sides. The first part of the catapult was a turntable to allow airplanes to be moved from their storing positions onto the catapult. The crane could be folded down when an aircraft was launched. Late 1934 she was recommissioned as SCHWABENLAND and went to duty off Bathurst. In summer 1936 she moved into the North Atlantic. When the USA denied mail-transmission licences in 1938, she was chartered to the Deutsche Antarktische Expedition for a mission to the South Pole. Presumably already before this mission, SCHWABENLAND was rebuilt. The catapult was moved to the port side, and the storing areas were regrouped. Later, during the war, she also received some light AA armament. On Oct.12, 1939 SCHWABENLAND was attached to the Luftwaffe. Her first area of duty was the Western Front, which finally brought her to the west coast of France. During the night of 6./7. Aug. 1942 she was convoyed from Boulogne back to Germany through the Channel. Her escorts succesfully fought off three attacks of British MTBs and MGBs. In Sept. 1942 she was moved to Norway. There she was torpedoed on Mar.24, 1944 off Egersund. But as her captain managed to beach her, she could be salvaged. From 7 Feb. 1945 she served as a storage ship at Oslo. From Jan.15, 1946 SCHWABENLAND was used as a house boat. At the end of the year she was made floatable again, loaded with gas ammunition and finally sunk on 31 Dec. 1946 in the Skagerrak. MS OSTMARK After the experience with WESTFALEN and SCHWABENLAND, the Lufthansa decided to build her own catapult ships rather than rebuilding further ships. So OSTMARK was built as a catapult ship from the start at Kieler Howaldts-Werke, Kiel, in 1936. Designed for coastal service, she was considerably smaller than her predecessors. She had a flush "flight deck" with a Heinkel-K-9 catapult which ran almost the full length of the ship. Her antenna masts which were combined with exhaust tubes were hinged like that on an aircraft carrier. The rear part of the catapult was a turntable. An airplane, when picked up by the crane at the stern, was put on the catapult, tail ahead, and then turned arround into launching position. OSTMARK served in the South Atlantic until 1939, where the outbreak of WW 2 caught her by surprise in Bolama, Portuguese Guinea. On Sep.6, 1939 she arrived at Las Palmas where she was confiscated on 1 Sep. 1940. On 3 Sep. 1940 she left to break through to the French coast, and arrived on Sep. 19 in the Gironde estuary. But while trying to reach Brest, on Sep.24, 1940, OSTMARK was torpedoed by the British submarine TUNA and sunk near the Ile d'Yeu. (To be continued) Falk Pletscher -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: ALTON007@aol.com Subject: Midway Carriers Does anyone know if a maker is thinking about building a Midway class carrier in a resin kit.......... Andy -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: ALROSS2@aol.com Subject: Re: naval gun calibre Essentially, the "calibre" is a variable used to express the length of the barrel. To get barrel length, you simply multiply the bore times the calibre; thus, a 5"/38 has a barrel that is 190" long (5" x 38). Al Ross -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "Foeth" Subject: Re: KGV book >> For anyone wanting more information on the KGV Battleships, there is a book called: King George V Class Battleships, by V.E.Tarrant, Arms And Armour Press, ISBN 1-85409-267-07, 1991. I got my copy from the Motor Book shop, London. << >> Since then I have been frantically searching the web for this book (including the shops listed in the Warship site), but I cannot find it. << Include me too on the wishlist for that book! Evert-Jan Foeth -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Foeth" Subject: Re: Calibre If I am not mistaken, calibre is the lenght of the barrel in terms of bore, so the barrel of a 5"/38cal would be (38*5)" long. Evert-Jan Foeth -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "Alan Lindstrom" Subject: Benson class DDs Can anyone enlighten on the appearance differences of the different subgroups of the USN Benson class DDs in WW2? I have seen the class referred to as the Benson class, Benson-Gleaves class, Benson-Livermore group, and Bristol class. I have also read that the "Benson" class had square stacks, while the "Livermore group" had round stacks. Also that the Bristol class was built without the 5th 5" mount. In photos, some have a rounded bridge, while others appear to have a square bridge. Alan Lindstrom -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Resin vs Plastic comparison No real difference at all. The only big difference is you will have to use super glue because plastic glue won't work on resin or metal parts. If you're an experienced modeler, you can handle it with no problems. Start small and build up to larger (and more expensive) models. I would suggest White Ensign Models HMS Bluebell kit as a good starter kit. It's small (about as long as your index finger) and has wonderful detail and photo etched parts to give you a good start on PE. If you run into any problems contact me or post your question here. There a lot of modeling experience on this site. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Hess1962@aol.com Subject: Re: Civil War flags I'm looking for a source for press-ons or decals (for use with aluminum foil) of American Civil War flags in a scale that would be compatible with the 1/600 Thoroughbred ships. The flags that come with the kits are well-done, but they are paper and do not lend themselves to being folded or "draped". I'd paint them on foil myself, but those are teeny-weeny stars, folks, and I'd probably screw them up. Any tips will be appreciated. Dave Hess, Kalamazoo MI USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Vincent McCullough Subject: Liberty ship question I'm currently building Iron Shipwright's 1/350 Liberty Ship. In looking at the picture of the pilot house on the Warship site, and trying to figure out what a structure on the top of the pilot house is. It is not represented in the Iron Shipwright model, and I would like to model it, but I have no idea what it looks like from perspectives other than the front and side. In the photo at: http://warship.simplenet.com/images/liberty/ob15.jpg , it's located between the port forward 20mm gun tub and the monkey platform in the center of the pilot house, and has a rounded bottom. This structure also appears on a Liberty model at the Smithsonian's Museum of American History, but sits further back on the port side, abeam of the stack, and has a platform astearn for crewmen to stand on. I thought perhaps it might be a chart table of some sort, but then why is the bottom curved? And why does it extend out beyond the top of the pilot house? Any suggestions? Vince McCullough Chantilly, Virginia -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: Rick Heinbaugh Subject: Re: Gun Caliber measurement >> I have a Dumb Question: If a naval gun is called a 5"/38 cal, I assume that means it has a 5" bore, but I don't know what the "38 cal" means. If it meant 0.38 feet, that would be 4.56 inches, which isn't 5. So I'm baffled. Somebody enlighten me, please. << Caliber (calibre to some?) is a way of describing the length of the gun barrel, compared to the already stated gun bore. So a 5" 38 cal gun barrel is 38 times 5" long => 190" => ~15'10", measured from breech to muzzle. It makes it easy to see the answer to the question of "what's the difference between South Dakota's 16" guns (45 cal) and the Iowa's 16" guns (50 cal)?" The difference is 5 x 16" = 6'8" length of the gun. Once in a while you will see a European reference to a 127mm/L38 gun; this "L" is probably for a perfectly logical word for "legnth" in French or German or something. (And BTW, 127mm = 5") No dumb questions; only unasked questions. Rick -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: Duane Fowler Subject: Calibers I'm sure there will be quite a few answers to this one but I finally found something I knew about! When referring to hand guns or rifles, the caliber is the bore diameter in decimal inches (a 50 caliber is .50 inches in diameter). When referring to large guns and cannons though, the caliber refers to the barrel length as a multiple of the diameter. A 5"/38 means that the inner diameter of the barrel was 5 inches and the length was 190 inches or 15 feet, 10 inches. A 3"/50 had a barrel diameter of 3 inches and a barrel length of 12 feet, 6 inches. It was really impressive for the larger guns like the 16"/45s with a barrel length of 60 feet! Best regards, Duane Fowler -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: RVanda1839@aol.com Subject: Re: Dreadnought and Jutland According to Anatomy of the Ship: Dreadnought, at the time of Jutland she was undergoing refit at Rosyth (pg 17 & 22). Rich -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: "Herron, Chris H" Subject: RE: 5"/38 Gun Barrels Norman, I think that the 38 figure refers to the rifling of the barrel (the grooves that spin the shell in flight for stability) in relation to the calibre of the gun. Thus a 5"/ 38 gun will have a nominal bore of 5" and a rifling ratio of one revolution for every 38 x calibre (in this case one revolution every 15 feet 10 inches.) Hope this helps. Chris (Seattle - it's raining !) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: Steven Rogers Subject: Re: Gun caliber One reader was puzzled by the use of caliber to describe different weapons. The caliber is the ratio of bore size to barrel length. Thus the 16"/45 cal guns of the North Carolina class were shorter than the 16"/50's of the Iowa class but had the same bore. This has a surprising effect on gun performance such as velocity and range. Steve Rogers -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: "mike.leonard" Subject: Re: Helo Hangars on FFG I recall spending a week on the USS Stark for grading exercises. There was a fairly wide passageway between the hangars, making each isolated and watertight. One hangar was actually used to hold a helo; the other one was a combination gymnasium, supply storeroom, and lounge for the helo det! Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: dhjonespsm@juno.com Subject: Re: ZUIHO question >> Well, if you're a bit patient, our IJN color chip set will be out in about a month. It will have both the greens used on carriers, plus the 4 grays, and a tan used on carrier deck camo. Using that, you could mix and match using your own favorite paints. << Great news for IJN fans - of which I am a card carrying member. >> As for those projections on each side of the flight deck aft, I believe they are the LSO platforms--though I stand to be corrected. << Actually the Japanese used a light system as a landing aid - rather different than the LSO system used in the USN. Those projections have a different purpose. Generally the flight deck style planking was extended to cover the tops of these projections (but not always - a few of the light carriers had the open frames with no planking on top) which were a girder framework that extended straight across under the flight deck. From this girder structure was suspended a traveling hoist which was used to launch and recover the collection of steam launches and cutters nested under the flight deck aft. Daniel H. Jones Plastic Ship Modeler magazine -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: "Graham Holmes" Subject: US Navy Weapon models With the eager requests for large scale models of Navy guns, I thought fellow Smellies would like to know of "Quartermaster" models. This is a line of Scale Ship Fittings in resin made by Bob Thomas here in Columbus Ohio, USA. Like many modellers, he helps out in our local hobby shop, and I checked with him today about what he makes. Well folks, all you requested is already covered, including: 40mm Bofors twin mount 5"/38 cal single and twin mounts(with single and double knuckles) pre war 3" mounts All the above have turned metal barrels. The above are ready in 1/48th scale, but Bob is interested in doing larger scales if the demand is there. Other items in preparation include 3" QF twins and 20mm Oerlikons. Dan Jones reviewed some of this range in PSM a few issues back,(can't remember which) and was favourably impressed. Having seen and handled is work, I will confirm he makes very impressive items. If anyone is interested, you can email him direct at qmaster4@juno.com Obligatory Disclaimer I have no financial interest in Quartermaster, or with Bob Thomas, I just know him as a friend, and fellow modeller who has given me much help and advice with my modelling. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: Malcolm Waite Subject: Re: KGV BOOK Hi Reference yesterdays question about a book about King George V class battleships by V.E. Tarrant The book was published in 1991 by Arms and Armour Press part of the Cassell Publishing house. It was distributed in the USA by Sterling Publishing Co. Ltd of New York. It's ISBN number is 1-85409-026-7 Hope this helps with the hunt. Malcolm PS it's an excellent book -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 26) From: CHRIS DRAGE Subject: Books and model HI Boys and Giggles, Does anyone know whether the publishing details for the following books: A. Hague: "Convoy Rescue Ships 1940-45" P. Kemp : "Allied Escort Ships of WWII" Similarly, does anyone want to sell a DocModel Hunt Type1 HMS Fernie kit? I need one of these and there doesn't seem to be any in stock anywhere. Happy modelling..... Regards, Chris He tao rakau e taea te karo, tena he tao kupa kaore e taea te karo.... (Te reo Maori) Hey Chris, when are you going to give a translation of the above ;->> Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Vimieraa@aol.com Subject: Camouflage Will Mr Apostolopoulos please contact me privately. His letter has an incorrect electronic address and I am therefore unable to reply. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "LAMKEEL" Subject: The latest Buzz. Having been downloaded with flue over the holiday period, I have enjoyed the latest modelling thoughts over the last month or so, I thought that I would put my pennyworth in.! ('Penny'-- ancient British coin). Wooden decks on Flower Class Corvettes? Yes, on the forcastle, a small area around the 4" Mounting and back aft, the area usually between the depth charge thrower(s). (Two or Four). Planks 5" wide by 2½" thick. But the area covered varied, according to the shipbuilder. The latest on W.R.'s Flower Class Publication:- I have been busy, busy, over the last year drawing Flowers from the shipbuilders drawings. Knowing that the space available was restricted, I decided to kill two birds with one stone and include all the drawings of ships and many component parts, construction etc, in my plans lists. I have completed over 50 large sheets on the subject and some would think it was time to call a halt. (Me included). I tentatively suggested that perhaps it would be an idea to produce the subject in two volumes. This fell on stony ground, but the compromise is that you will get extra pages. The bad news is that many many drawings will not be seen. Some units are drawn on single sheets, others are fully detailed with 4,5 and 6 sheets. All variations are covered, E.G. short fox'l, extended fox'l and modified hull lines. Different bridge layouts. One mast or two. Modified Flowers with revised hull lines, its all there. All but one of the weapons are drawn in detail, and WE anticipate that once the Atlanta is published we flash both boilers! (Either cylindrical or Admiralty three drum, whichever - all are drawn). Next subject:- Larger Naval Weapons. I have a 7" high, scratchbuilt, Twin 0.5" Vickers Machine Gun on a Manual Mark IV Mounting, in a glass case. This was a weapon fitted on many armed Trawlers, Motor Minesweepers and a few Coastal Forces craft as anti-aircraft or close range defence. This is a one off, was made to my drawings, and presented to me by that ace modeller, Peter Stern. But, I have drawn over 100 Weapon subjects. The very complex Quad. and 8 barrelled Pom Pom, is detailed on multi sheets. The 20mm Oerlikon, single and twin, U.S. and R.N. Manual and power operated. Depth Charge throwers, main armament for destroyers (DD's) and below, up to 4.7", R.N. submarines, the Twin 4" Mark XIX D.P. Mounting, 12 Pounders, 6 Pounders etc. The drawings are available, fully detailed, come in tubes by airmail and will not cost the earth! I must get back to the hold deck of the Modified Flower, H.M.S. Burnet. Yours "aye". John Lambert. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume