Subject SMML24/01/99VOL435 Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 23:51:37 +1100 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Books 2: Re: 1/350 Lindberg Essex 3: Re: Civil War flags 4: Re: Liberty ship question 5: Re: Benson class DD's 6: Re: Gun calibre 7: Re: USS Midway 8: Re: German catapult ships. 9: Re: helo hangers RN 10: Re: Helo Hangars on FFG 11: Essex Class Carrier 'Shangri-La' 12: Re: DUAL HANGARS 13: Re: Calibers and odd bits. 14: Re: Liberty ship question 15: Floquil marine colors? 16: Data on hull #'s 17: Re: Liberty Ship Question -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Re: midway carriers -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: Books Elliott, Peter. _Allied Escort Ships of World War II: A Complete Survey_. London: Macdonald and Jane's, 1977. Drawings by Alan Raven. ISBN 0 356 08401 9 John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Michael C. Smith" Subject: Re: 1/350 Lindberg Essex >> And why would Tamiya produce a 1/350 Essex? There is a workable Essex out there, the Lindberg kit. Altough not state-of-the-art, it isn't TOO bad. Why not a Lexington/Saratoga? Ranger? Wasp (the first)? a CVL or CVE? << Alan, I wholeheartedly agree - I want a decent Lexington (in 1/700 would be great as well - the Fujimi is much worse than people realize). BUT, please don't overestimate the Lindberg kit. It is essentially a motorized toy that appears based on the Revell 1/720 scale Intrepid (the flaws are similar), and to my mind its best feature is that it is the same apparent scale as the Revel angled deck Essex ships, and thus provides a useful counterpart (you can swap out the island for one of the Revells and have an early postwar Essex). The overall hull and dimensions are actually pretty accurate and it could serve as a good basis for kitbashing a decent Essex with one main problem - the bow is totally, totally wrong. It holds two 40mm quads and is squared off a little (again, like the Revell Intrepid) so it's apprently supposed to be a "long hull," but it is the length of a "short hull" bow (and the completely wrong shape). To build a decent Essex, you'd have to completely rebuild the bow, unless someone comes out with a part that would replace the bow completely, sort of like Hasegawa does for their Essex/Hancock. Once that's done, the kit is really no worse than the Hasegawa - the basic lines are okay, and you can select how much detailing you want to do. So I would certainly like to see an injection molded 1/350 scale Essex with options for long & short hull. The cost of the resin kit just places a lot of us out of the market. But I agree with you, I wish they'd do a Lex/Sara before that - if you need an Essex fix bad enough you can buy the resin (and eat noodles for a year!) Michael Smith Marshall, Texas -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Kenneth H. Goldman" Subject: Re: Civil War flags Since you have a source of paper flags in the right scale, spray them with Krylon Krystal Klear or Matte Fixative, building up to a good, relatively thick coating. After it is completely dry, you can wash/gently rub most of the paper off from the back side. This won't make a good decal since some paper fibers always remain, but should thin them down enough for your purposes. Experiment on something you don't mind ruining to get the hang of it. If the paper is thick enough, you might even be able to split the dry paper with a knife and separate the layers. If you try this, hold the flag face down on a hard flat surface while peeling from the back. Ken Goldman THE WALRUS AND THE CARPENTER http://www.wman.com/~khgold/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: ironship@usit.net (Jon Warneke) Subject: Re: Liberty ship question Hi Vincent, >> I'm currently building Iron Shipwright's 1/350 Liberty Ship. In looking at the picture of the pilot house on the Warship site, and trying to figure out what a structure on the top of the pilot house is. It is not represented in the Iron Shipwright model, and I would like to model it, but I have no idea what it looks like from perspectives other than the front and side. In the photo at: http://warship.simplenet.com/images/liberty/ob15.jpg , it's located between the port forward 20mm gun tub and the monkey platform in the center of the pilot house, and has a rounded bottom. << This structure is probably a flag locker, and is basically a retagular box with a rounded bottom. This one's unusual with the canvas dodger around it, and I'm fairly certain this is so the signalmen can work in some sort of relative calm. The structure's interior probably looks like any other standard flag locker. The reason why this isn't on the kit is that the kit was built as a generic Liberty ship, and not any specific ship, since there were so many differences between ships as you've cited below with this locker. >> This structure also appears on a Liberty model at the Smithsonian's Museum of American History, but sits further back on the port side, abeam of the stack, and has a platform astearn for crewmen to stand on. I thought perhaps it might be a chart table of some sort, but then why is the bottom curved? And why does it extend out beyond the top of the pilot house? << The curvature, I believe, is to provide a place for the water to drain to and allow the flags to "dry" somewhat (I was a tank commander in the Army, so...). As for it extension beyond the pilothouse, that could be any number of reasons (providing room for a standard locker, captain's preference, etc.). This locker is probably one of many differences that you'll find between this kit and the real ship. The plans that were used for the kit were purchased on the Jerimiah O'Brien, so they are sanctioned plans. Good luck with the kit, and I hope you're enjoying it. Jon Warneke Iron Shipwrights I am Elmer J. Fudd, millionaire. I own a mansion and a yacht! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Pieter Cornelissen Subject: Re: Benson class DD's >> Can anyone enlighten on the appearance differences of the different subgroups of the USN Benson class DDs in WW2 << According to the inevitable Terzibaschitsch the differences between the Benson/Gleaves/Livermore/Bristol class, the last treaty influenced class of US destroyers, were as follows; Benson; basic model, 8 ordered in FY37, five 5'' guns A, B and Y guns were enclosed, the other two 5" guns were in open mounts. Gleaves; two 37 Bensons with higher steam pressure, otherwise the same. Livermore; 16 ships ordered in FY 38 and 39 with high steam pressure, otherwise the same. Bristol; 72 ships ordered in FY 40 (in parallel with 119 Fletchers!!) with high steam pressure and only four 5'' guns, which were all in closed mounts. Ships built by Bethlehem and Seattle Tacoma were called 'group 2' and had square funnels, the rest (also Benson, Gleaves and Livermore) had round funnels. Ships from DD 620 (?) had square bridges. The earlier ships were all modernised during the war, gained closed mounts and lost the fifth 5" gun. After 1943 all ships looked more or less the same. BTW, according to Paolo Pizzi Skywave is going to release a 1/700 Livermore. As these ships did not have a flush deck they might turn it into a good model (EVIL GRIN). I'm looking forward to it. Pieter Cornelissen -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Norman Samish Subject: Re: Gun calibre >> One reader was puzzled by the use of caliber to describe different weapons. The caliber is the ratio of bore size to barrel length. Thus the 16"/45 cal guns of the North Carolina class were shorter than the 16"/50's of the Iowa class but had the same bore. This has a surprising effect on gun performance such as velocity and range. << To all those that responded to my question about the meaning of naval-gun "caliber," thanks very much! Your eagerness to share your knowledge is gratifying. The length of naval gun barrels, typically 38 to 50 bore diameters, seems comparable to that of common rifles and pistols. These range from about 5.6 to about 86. I know how the velocity of rifle and pistol bullets changes with bore length, and I'd like to find out similar information about naval projectiles. Can one of you experts give me information or a reference about naval ballistics? Thanks. Norm Samish -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: CBNJBB62@aol.com Subject: Re: USS Midway I know of a master of a USS MIDWAY CV-41. A resin kit of the 1945 configuration. It's owned by Mike Bartell of Imperial Navy Productions. I saw his master at the local IPMS chapter a few years ago. Whether he's still in business I don't know. Craig Bennett -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: CBNJBB62@aol.com Subject: Re: German catapult ships. Dear Falk: Thank you for the information on the German catapult ships. A member of the same ship club that I'm in scratch a model of the catapult ships and he specializes on construction of the model rather the history. Craig Bennett -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: CBNJBB62@aol.com Subject: Re: helo hangers RN A question. In 1991 the H.M.S. CAMPBELTOWN visited the area I'm in and in the frigates helio hangar next to the Lynx helicopter was a land rover car that was the ship's car. Is this standard on all modern RN ships or the exception to the rules? Craig Bennett -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: John Burch Subject: Re: Helo Hangars on FFG Mike Leonard's note prompted me to reply with the following recollections, which might be of interest. The FFG twin hangar arrangement was directed by DoD when the ship was still designated PFG 107 Class. Ships from FFG 7 through 35 were designed and built to operate SH-2s (LAMPS MK I); flight decks were marked in an "X" pattern, as SH-2s used a sideways landing approach. No RAST (Recovery Assist Securing & Traverse) system was used with the SH-2s. (Subsequently, some early FFGs were retrofitted to LAMPS MK III standard.) FFGs 36-61 were designed and built to operate the SH-60B (LAMP MK III). The flight deck markings in these ships had a "+" pattern because the SH-60B used a straight-in landing approach; this resulted in the "sloped transom" which supported a shelf, necessary because a capstan at the stern would otherwise have obstructed the SH-60B landing approach. RAST was provided as an integral part of LAMPS MK III. The RAST tracks lead out of each hangar and converge towards the center of the landing circle markings; each track has a dedicated "beartrap" trolley device which was used for capturing a "kingpin" on the underside of the A/C and is used to trundle the A/C in or out of the hangar. Control of the RAST is by an operator in a semi buried "bubble" on the forward, starboard side of the flight deck. A distinctive feature of LAMPS MK III is the data link antenna (fiberglass radome), which on FFGs is located on the 96 ft platform on the mainmast. FFGs 36 through 61 received Link 11, concurrent with LAMPS MK III, which shows up in the form of a fifth whip antenna, located on the 02 level, starboard, just forward of the hangar door. The magazine for torpedoes is located on the main deck, forward of the hangars, and torpedoes are moved aft, along the mid-ships passageway, to which Mike referred, to the flight deck using a bomb loading trolley (yellow gear), by passing through the water tight door between the two hangar doors. A set of heavy, sloped metal sheets (removable) is used to get the trolley over the combing of the water tight door. Torpedo and sonobuoy loading/unloading is done on the flight deck. A/C engine start is electical using a heavy cable (from the hangar I think) plugged into the A/C. When landing a SH-60 A/C using RAST, a line is dropped from the A/C (and is discharged of static electricity by a flight deck crewperson using a "shepards crook" discharger); is captured by the Beartrap and attached to a winch below deck. The pilot pulls "up collective" while the winch exerts tension to bring the A/C down into the trap, which is activated by the operator in the bubble. FFGs were the first LAMPS MK III equipped ships in the USN (in '84) and normally operated with a single helo, however, on occasion, in the early years, they might operate with two, if no other LAMPS III capable ships were present in a force, particulary those forward deployed. During tests and trials the hangars were regularly used as berthing compartments, with three-tiered pipe racks secured to the pad-eyes in the hangar deck. Each hangar could easily accomodate up to 40 people (been there, done that). As a major fire at-sea can ruin your whole day, FFG 36 and beyond featured a grate covered recess in the flight deck at the hangar doors, provided to capture fuel spilled (and probably aflame) in a flight deck crash, and channel it toward overboard discharges; similar capture and discharge provisions are made below decks under the RAST tracks and in the RAST winch rooms. We use to test this by up-ending a water filled Dempsey Dumpster on the flight deck and seeing if any water made its way anywhere into the ship. John Burch Gaithersburg, MD, USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: Essex Class Carrier 'Shangri-La' I'm interested in doing a model of the carrier Shangri-La in 1/700 scale but need a bit of help. Basically I need to know the composition of it's airgroup (apart from the Helldivers of VB85) and numbers. It's anti-aircraft set up, positioning of 40mm +ACY- 20mm and whether anyone does transfers in 1/700 for its lightning bolt tail symbol. I would also like to know whether the Hasegawa kit is suitable for conversion (long hull, short flight deck) Look forward to hearing from you. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Baker Subject: Re: DUAL HANGARS For those who seem to care, the OSCAR AUSTIN and subsequent ARLEIGH BURKE-class DDGs in the Flight IIA series have two, separate, side-by-side hangars separated by such things as ventilation ducts, various lockers, and the exhaust uptake space for the after 2,500 kw gas turbine generator. DDG 81 is now named WINSTON S. CHURCHILL; previously, her official name was just WINSTON CHURCHILL, but someone persuaded SECNAV Dalton to add the S. when it was pointed out (perhaps facetiously) that the name might be confused with that of the American romance novelist Winston Churchill. She never had a "SIR" in front of the name, except in some non-official (and very incorrect) notices at NAVSEA. Cheers/A.D. Baker, III, editor, COMBAT FLEETS OF THE WORLD, 1998-99, U.S. Naval Institute Press, Annapolis, Md., 1998 (1,220 pages, 4,600 illustrations and listing at $150.00, about a third the price of a smaller, less accurate, and far less comprehensive foreign naval reference that some of you folks may have heard of) Check us out; we have data and pictures galore. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Bradford Chaucer Subject: Re: Calibers and odd bits. I would like to offer a suggestion. There were a number of responses to the question about the meaning of caliber. All were prompt, accurate and helpful, but also identical. Perhaps in the future, we should consider filtering or summarizing multiple repetitive responses with perhaps a list of the names of the responders to save bandwidth. Second as to why the choice of Enterprise over Nimitz, because Enterprise was the first CVN, even if today outclassed by newer ships like Nimitz. As for Bob Steinbrunn's tagline, I always thought that Minneapolis was an Indian term for place where all he worlds lousy weather heads first!! :-) >> But, then, since marrying and buying a "fixer-upper", I haven't BUILT anything in a couple of years, only acquired them, much to the chagrin of my bride. She has set her foot down," NO MORE UNTIL YOU BUILD SOMETHING YOU ALREADY HAVE!" << >>> Make sure your wife doesn't see this post then :-)). Ooops, Lorna just read this over my shoulder and she agrees. AARRGGHH!!! Shane <<< Hmmmm maybe I ought to consider a law review article on the effects of interference with or disparagement of hobbies on divorce rate??? :-) Also some one suggested a ships catapult in larger scale as a good modeling subject. I agree, it should be done in 1/48 scale and could go really nicely with the Monogram Kingfisher that must be in every model collection larger than 5 airplanes!. Actually just to expand a bit, it should consist of the catapult on either a deck mount or a BBS turret, and the AC crane used to lift the plane onto the cat. Regards, Bradford Chaucer Note from Shane: That's not a bad idea, Bradford. But where it could possibly fall down is the fact that the list members are far more knowledgable than myself & what if I edit out the correct answer & leave in the wrong answer! As long as the same answers are short, it may be best just to leave them in. Any comments appreciated. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: William Schnakenberg Subject: Re: Liberty ship question >> I'm currently building Iron Shipwright's 1/350 Liberty Ship. In looking at the picture of the pilot house on the Warship site, and trying to figure out what a structure on the top of the pilot house is. It is not represented in the Iron Shipwright model, and I would like to model it, but I have no idea what it looks like from perspectives other than the front and side. In the photo at: http://warship.simplenet.com/images/liberty/ob15.jpg , it's located between the port forward 20mm gun tub and the monkey platform in the center of the pilot house, and has a rounded bottom. This structure also appears on a Liberty model at the Smithsonian's Museum of American History, but sits further back on the port side, abeam of the stack, and has a platform astearn for crewmen to stand on. I thought perhaps it might be a chart table of some sort, but then why is the bottom curved? And why does it extend out beyond the top of the pilot house? << Sorry if I am going about this the wrong way, but I am a new subscriber and am not sure how to posts responses to the newsletter. The item in the picture you refer to is the signal flag bin where the signal flags are stored, hoisted from and lowered into. Flags are stored by being hung in the bin in a sort of office drawer file folder system such as a Pentaflex. The curved bottom aids in draining. Bill PSP Terrorist - D'Lanok de Caresk chapter - Anti-Troll Unit 235 Serial Numbers-R-Us! The USS Salem, CA-139. The World's only preserved Heavy Cruiser, Quincy, MASS. http://members.xoom.com/ltwes329/salem.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: BillBramha@aol.com >Subject: Floquil marine colors? Dear Greg, I'm a list subscriber, but a complete newbie to cyberspace and ignorant of the protocol of posting a message. On the (perhaps mistaken) assumption it's done by E-mailing the message t0 you, here it goes: Does anyone have tips on airbrushing with Floquil marine colors? Specifically, using reflectance reducer to achieve a scale flat finish without obscuring fine brass details? I find Floquil the most frustrating of paints to work with, and would be interested learning the correct way to handle them, as no other manufacturer, as far as I know, produces WWII colors for USN vessels. Bill Bramhall -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Don Myers Subject: Data on hull #'s A first post so excuse any errant wording or protocol on my part... I have been staring at a set of profile plans I received from the Smithsonian Institute. The plans are for the R2-S-BV1 version of the C2-S-B1 cargo ship. Specifically, I have been attempting to match US Maritime Commission hull #s (1202, 1205, 1206, 1207, 1210, 1212) with Moore Dry Dock Company hull #s (289, 292, 293, 294, 297, 299) and DANFS is inconsistant with #s and names. If anyone has access to Sawyer & Mitchell's "From American to United States" and can provide Merchant and Navy names, reply to my e-mail address. Having served on one of these "reefer" ships, USS PICTOR (AF-54), ex SS GREAT REPUBLIC, I am interested in modeling her as she was configured during mid 60's Viet Nam service. Memories and cruise book pictures are all I have to go by and I understand photos of ship modifications are hard to come by. Any ideas or sources out there? Lastly, PICTOR's armament was twin 40's. Some of the models in catalogs refer to Mark (type or make) #'s. For this era, what specific model part is appropriate? Excuse the lack of proper terms, I was in the black gang. Thanks in advance for any response from the knowledgable folks out there. Don Myers -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "mike.leonard" Subject: Re: Liberty Ship Question If we're seeing the same thing, it looks to me like a flag bag -- a storage locker for alphabetical signal flags. Usually the bottom was rounded but not always. Mike L Alexandria, VA USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: James Corley Subject: Re: midway carriers >> Does anyone know if a maker is thinking about building a Midway class carrier in a resin kit......... << Nautilus has announced a resin update set for the MIDWAY as she looked in 45.... sorta the "Operation Olympic" version. Nautilus Models Here are the resin sets & the photoetch now available, but we also carry a full line of KMC and TAC Scale Dynamics parts for aircraft. Add $3 to total for Priority Mail shipping. We accept check, m/o, Visa/MC. ***** Nautilus Kits #S-01 THRU #S-04 are resin upgrade sets for the Revell Lionfish WW2 Fleet Sub. This kit has been released under many names over the past 40 years, but the kit has never improved. ***** S-01 USS BLUEFISH update set $19.95 ($21.00 w/S&H) The upgrade includes a fairwater to represent USS BLUEFISH in the summer of 1943. The set includes the EARLY cut-down fairwater, periscopes, TBT and deck guns. The set includes one 4"/50 mount, one 40mm single mount, 20 20mm guns with a tripod and a conical base each. This configuration should allow for the completion of any one of the mid-war boats. S-02 USS HARDER update set $19.95 ($21.00 w/S&H) The upgrade includes a fairwater to represent USS HARDER in the summer of 1944. The set includes the LATE cut-down fairwater, periscopes, TBT and deck guns. The set includes one 4"/50 mount, one 40mm single mount, two 20mm guns with a tripod and a conical base each. This configuration should allow for the completion of any one of the late-war boats. S-03 USS GATO update set $19.95 ($21.00 w/S&H) This set will allow the builder to convert the Lionfish kit to the original fit of the "1500-ton" submarine as built in 1941. The boat has the fully streamlined fairwater and periscope shears and is fitted with a single 3"/50 gun aft and a .50 cal MG in the sail. S-04 USS ICEFISH update set $19.95 ($21.00 w/S&H) The Balao set represents the penultimate WW2 sub class in its early configuration. This set will come with the early-style Balao periscope shears and is fitted with a 5"/25 deck gun, a 4"/50 deck gun, two single 40mm and two 20mm guns. ***** SM-01 USN Fleet Sub Photoetch $15.00 ($16.00 w/S&H) This set is now available and is photoetched brass to complete the Revell Lionfish kit, either with or without the Nautilus conversion sets. ******Coming Soon******* SPRING 1999 SPR99 D-01 1/350 FLETCHER class DDE, 1950 ASW update for Tamiya kit SPR99 D-02 1/700 FLETCHER class DDE, 1950 ASW update for Tamiya kit This set will convert either Tamiya kit into a 1950 ASW updated destroyer. The set will include complete new superstructure and the following weapons: 2 Mk 33 twin 3"/50 mounts 3 Mk10 Hedgehog 1 Mk15 trainable Hedgehog 1 Mk108 Weapon "Alpha" The assortment of ASW weapons will allow for the completion of several different ships including USS Renshaw & USS Conway SPR99 D-03 1/350 FLETCHER class DD, FRAM conversion set for Tamiya kit SPR99 D-04 1/700 FLETCHER class DD, FRAM conversion set for Tamiya kit This set will convert either Tamiya kit into the DASH-equipped FRAM DD of the mid 1960s. This set will include complete new superstructure, tripod mast, funnel stacks & caps and the following weapons: 1 Mk108 Weapon "Alpha" 2 Mk10 Hedgehog VDS - Variable Depth Sonar array photoetch for the flight deck nets and radar mast. SPR99 C-40 1/480 YORKTOWN 1942 Update set for Revell YORKTOWN kit This set will correct the Revell kit into the YORKTOWN as she appeared at Midway. The set will comprise a new resin island and guns. It is designed to fit the excellent GMM photoetch set for this kit. White metal airplanes will be offered seperately. SPR99 A-01 1/480 TBD Devastators 10 pcs SPR99 A-02 1/480 F4F-4 Wildcats 10 pcs SPR99 A-03 1/480 SBD-3 Dauntless' 10 pcs ****New Subjects**** FALL99 C-10 1/540 INDEPENDENCE 1998 update set for Revell Forrestal kit FALL99 C-20 1/540 MIDWAY 1945 update set for Revell MIDWAY/FDR kit FALL99 C-30 1/540 ORISKANY 1972 Update set for Revell LEXINGTON kit WINT99 C-11 1/540 FORRESTAL 1976 update set for Revell Forrestal kit WINT99 C-41 1/480 HORNET 1942 Update set for Revell YORKTOWN kit These sets will include full superstructures and gun sets for the intended set. Some sets will also include updated sponsons, etc. Each will be designed to use the appropriate Gold Medal Models set to complete the model. Nautilus Models 2550 Alberta Lane Marietta, GA 30062-1504 james@NautilusModels.com 770-943-3482 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume