Subject SMML28/01/99VOL439 Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 23:50:23 +1100 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: RN Falkland paints 2: Re: Old built-up 1/700 ships -- Valuable? 3: Re: Ark Royal WWII 4: Re: HMS Ark Royal WW2 5: Re: models 6: Re: Enterprise References 7: Re: resin manufacture query? 8: Vehicles on ships 9: Virus Hoax 10: Re: Fate of the MINSK 11: Re: Nautilus Models & 1/700 scale Hasegawa 12: Re: Ian Allen Books 13: Re: German catapult ships aircrew members 14: Re: HMS Ocean 15: Re: Any color in the universe 16: 'Laser Type' thingies. 17: Re: Ex-Soviet Carriers 18: Re: national security 19: French naval guns 20: Re: 1/32 PT PE 21: Re: Viking Models contact 22: Re: Viking Models 23: USN DIRECTORS, ETC. 24: Re: SHIPBOARD TRANSPORTATION & PAINT COLORS 25: Re: Paint Chips Question 26: More on paint 27: Re: Various posts 28: Re: Rules of the Game 29: Re: USS Enterprise references 30: Re: Fujimi USS Lexington 31: Warping young minds, Security, Weather 32: Re: Virus Warning 33: USS San Francisco in scale 1:350 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Large scale weapons kits 2: USS Enterprise 1996 Cruise Book For Sale -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Pletscher-Lenz-Schneider" Subject: Re: RN Falkland paints As far as I know, the Royal Navy was testing measures to reduce the infra-red signatures of British warships durung the Falkland war. One of these measures was to paint a vertcal black pannel along the funnel and over the engine room. This was ment to diffuse the heat coming from that areas. So these black pannels can be regarded as a modern type of camouflage paint. Falk Pletscher -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Cadman Subject: Re: Old built-up 1/700 ships -- Valuable? >> I have a bunch (over 100) of Waterline Series ship models of Cruisers, Destroyers and Submarines. They are taking up space, and I am wondering if I should try to sell them, give them away, or just dumpsterize them. They are reasonably well done for being 20+ years old, and have been in a cabinet so haven't gotten dusty. Obviousely no photo-etch, and I didn't rig them (that wouldn't have survived). They would be good for wargaming, put does anyone use 1/700 ships in wargaming? << John trust me they have absolutely no value at all! In fact they are a liability, what with all that styrene and resin, not to mention all that paint and glue fumes! That's why I'm volunteering to take them off your hands for free!!! I will even pay shipping!!! ;-) Seriously though why not list what you have and let us make offers on them. I for one would be interested in them. Cadman's Home on the Web http://kc.net/~cadman/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Les Pickstock (Les Pickstock) Subject: Re: Ark Royal WWII I've been working on an Ark Royal model (Airfix 1/600th) until recently. It would appear that she wore gray for most of her life (although I am researching a possibility that she was wearing a blue panel at the waterline when she sank) During her time on patrol off the coast of Spain (during the civil war) she was in dark gray with neutrality flashes on the 4" turret sides, her deck appears to have been lighter gray with a large white circle at the stern end (an aiming mark for aircraft landing on) She under went at least 2 major re-fits, one in Portsmouth and the last in Gib where the number 5 and 6 (port side midships) 8 barrelled pom-poms were fitted. This was only 30 days before she was sunk and was done as preperation for a Malta convoy. When I decided to model the Ark I bought the Revell version and compared it with the Airfix for my money the Airfix is better. However I have no great preference for scale and the Revell is one option for those 1/700th fans amongst us. Now I'am going to stick my neck out here I'am sure I've seen a Japanese 1/700 kit of the Ark Royal III. I know Tamiya have never done the Ark so it may have been Fujimi, Hasagawa or Aeoshima(sp?). The Revell kit is not bad but will require some work to bring it right. the main downchecks I think are:- 1) Raised and prominant portholes. 2) The recessed decks along the sides are moulded in with some of the boats in bas-relief. 3) The "island" is iffy at best. 4) Only Fairey Fulmars are provided and they are just awful. These however are personal opinions and remember that most older models need work. The addition of PE and resin aircraft will make a big difference. WEM have a nice Carrier fret with cranes, ladders and rails and a/c props plus a lot of other useful spare bits and their RN AA fret will provide the weapons you need but remember you will need 4 frets as ther are 8 .5-quad Vickers and 4 or 6 8-barrelled pom-poms but at around £3 per fret the whole lot should come out less than a purpose made GMM fret and you,ll have lots of spare bits My own model is held up for a rush-job but I would appreciate anyones opinions on the colour schemes for Ark's boats and the solving of a mystery. At Ark Royal's mast head is what appears to be a 271 radar housing however this was installed at the time of her fitting out (1938) a good 3 years before 271 was invented. Can anyone shed light on this? Les Pickstock "I'd rather have a full bottle in front of me than a full frontal Lobotomy" Les, I think the Ark you're referring to is the Fujimi HMS Ark Royal. This is the post war fleet(?) carrier. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Lee Francis Wilhelmsen" Subject: Re: HMS Ark Royal WW2 >> Also any comments on the Revell 1/720 kit would also be appreciatted. << I built this kit many years ago... The kit can't compare to Tamiya models, but the hull itself isn't too bad. I remember having some "difficulty" getting the hull and deck to go together, but I did it in the end. The model is lacking anchors and the planes that come along aren't Swordfish (depressing, but I think they are Fulmars). A lot of detail (lifeboats) is molded directly into the hull...The actual superstructure on the deck seems a bit clumsy and lacking detail. All in all though, I think it's ok for the price. I'm thinking of getting it myself so I will be also following this thread for responses.... but mainly because there aren't many alternatives of British carriers from WWII... I don't know why someone hasn't made a high quality Ark Royal model. Surly she is just as famous as Rodney or Nelson? Oh yes, it also comes along with a destroyer... Best regards Lee Francis WIlhelmsen Stavanger, Norway -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "Tom & Carolyn Harrison" Subject: Re: models To all SMML members, Please take a minute to check out the attached site: http://starbulletin.com/1999/01/26/features/story3.html This is what I believe modeling is all about. Its not awards, its the joy of a completed model and the sharing with others that model. Tom -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: John.Kauck@rrd.com Subject: Re: Enterprise References I am building the Revell 1/720 Enterprise in her 1968 configuration and one of each of her aircraft in 1/72. I got some great photos from the United States Naval Institute, Photo Sale / Archives Assistant, 118 Maryland Avenue, Annapolis, MD 21402-5035. Let them know the hull number and the relevant dates and they will research it and send you photo copies. Then you can order the ones you like. Its a little expensive but given the difficulty of finding good reference books, it was worth it. They also have photos of planes as well in case you need references for squadron markings. Their website is: http://www.usni.org/cgi-bin/AT-USNI_HRPsearch.cgi. Also, I got a complete set of plans from the Floating Drydock: CVA(N)-65, USS Enterprise, USN Booklet of General Plans, circa 1962. They are basic blue prints from every angle in what I believe to be 1/350 but I'm not sure. The Floating Drydock is also on the web and I'd bet they have plans for or around the year you're referencing. Hope this helps. Happy modeling! John Kauck -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: ironship@usit.net (Jon Warneke) Subject: Re: resin manufacture query? Hi Chris, >> Anyway, one question that I have, being new to the Resin Model Ship realm,how is it those who supply these kits determine what ships to model?<< I'll take a shot at this, since it's a mystery to most how manufacturers decide on what to do. Basically, what we do at Commanders/Iron Shipwrights and Accurate Image isn't as mystifying as many may think. The big question that we ask ourselves is, "Will this specific ship cover production costs at a reasonable price?". There are a lot of requests that are made for a lot of ships, but what we've found works best are these questions. Is it a historical ship? Was it a "doomed" ship (i.e. sank in a great battle or under questionable circumstances)? Has it been done before? What will the reception within the ship modeling community be? Will anybody really care if it isn't done? Does it look neat??? What will the finished product cost? The last thing that's usually considered is the demand, since we've found (historically speaking) this. Let's say that there is a sudden explosion of requests for a Vaseline Tanker, and there's not a kit available at the present time. Do we do it? Well, we answer the seven questions above, and come to the determination that is isn't worth the time. Another piece of info that we've come to find out is that history seems to be the biggest determination of the future success of a kit. If we do a kit of, let's say a Psycological Warfare cutter with a massive speaker as it's main armament, what's the history of this ship? If we found out that it's sole claim to fame is that it sank as it was launched, it won't be done. However, if the ship had a key role in some battle as it screamed positive inspiration to the ships around it, then it probably will be built. There are a lot of intangibles in deciding what gets made and what doesn't. If all of the above questions are answered positively for the kit, but the price is out of line, you probably won't see it. If the cost is low, but nobody would care about it, don't look for it. There's a wierd combination of circumstances that have to come together a certain way to get a kit produced, and even then if the "warm fuzzy" about the ship doesn't occur, it probably won't get done. This has been a long-winded way of saying, "It depends...", and in the end that's what it really comes down to. Jon Warneke Iron Shipwrights/Accurate Image Models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Colin Ritchie Subject: Vehicles on ships One thing occurs to me about the Land Rover on the Frigate, was HM Prince Andrew embarked on the ship by any chance? I seem to remember a documentary about him a few years back, shown here in the UK,. They had a vehicle on board for his official visits when the ship was in port, just a thought..,... Oh in the same vein, a few years back I was at the Tall ships Race when the fleet was in Leith, Edinburgh, great time was had , and later in the afternoon, a Seaking flew over, and as an underslung load , a nice new shiny Jaguar, (car that is!). Apparently the car was first prize in a raffle, and it was being flown in as a publicity stunt. Enterprise References Thanks for the offers, I'll get back to you indivdually, and Bilol, yes I got the e-mail, and I've got the FSM with the Enterprise article looked out, yes I've found the E's web site, and even the crew association pages, missed the book, but I'll have another look, just as soon as I get a minute, it's a B**ch when work get in the way of model making! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Mark Krywienko Subject: Virus Hoax Hi Shane, With reference to the Virus warning posted on last nights SMML. The 'Buddweiser Frog' virus is a virus hoax. The following URL from the Symantec Anti Virus Research Centre documents it. http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/hoax.html Regards, Mark Krywienko (Sydney Australia) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Katz, Gene S" Subject: Re: Fate of the MINSK Mike's news item made me laugh. I was once at an airshow in Austin, TX and went aboard a P3C of a Navy VP squadron. They had an onboard video demonstration of their IR capabilities, running a tape that distinctly showed the MINSK underway in the dark. I casually mentioned to my girlfriend what ship it was. The Ensign giving the demonstration clammed up and then said it was classified info!! The other folks looked at me as if I wore a "cloak and dagger" disguise. My girlfriend spent the rest of the day concerned about the FBI or SPs picking me up and dragging me off in chains. I think she was really concerned about how she would get home and explain to her husband!! And now this "classified ship" is going to become a DisneyWorldEast. The world turns. Gene -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "Michael C. Smith" Subject: Re: Nautilus Models & 1/700 scale Hasegawa As much as I'd like help with the 1/700 scale Hasegawa Essex, I would note that much of the problems are surface detail and hangar deck openings, which I wouldn't think aftermarket resin would help. Unless you're talking about a new flight deck, which would really be nice - save a LOT of detailing. What sorts of other things could be replaced on the kit. What I'd really like to see, if no one is going to do a resin kit, is an aftermarket kit for the Fujimi Lexington. The kit wouldn't fix the errors in the hull (too big aft at the waterline) but a new flight deck (could do a prewar or 1942 layout), and new island pieces would be a big help. The forward piece has a teardrop (not rectangular) footprint, and the smokestack is actually oval in shape as it rises. I've been studying the original plans for some time, and the real ship is just a fascinating thing - wish we could get a decent model in 1/700 scale. Michael Smith Marshall, Texas -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Rick Heinbaugh Subject: Re: Ian Allen Books >> Does anybody have the ISBNs handy for the Ian Allen, Modern Combat Ships series. I've searched a few of the on-line stores for the titles but have so far drawn a blank. << The ones I have are: Modern Combat Ships 1 'Leander' Class, Cdr C.J. Meyer OBE, RN, (c) Ian Allen Ltd, 1984 ISBN 0 7110 1385 3 and Modern Combat Ships 3 Type 42, Leo Marriott, (c) Leo Marriott 1985 ISBN 0 7110 1453 1 The book jacket says "in series with 'Invincible' class, Paul Beaver" - that must be Modern Combat Ships 2. Don't know any current source; I bought mine in the '80s. Rick Heinbaugh Seattle, WA (40 F & it might rain a bit today...) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: CaptainOD@aol.com Subject: Re: German catapult ships aircrew members If my memory is correct, after about 1937 all aviation assets were controlled and transferred to the Luftwaffe replacing German Naval aviation units. I believe that the submarine commander in the book "Operation Drumbeat" had been a prior Navy pilot as well as General Osterkamp, the German Navy WW1 ace. All service members including a limited number of SS pilots/crew were trained by the Luftwaffe. This according to sources lead to critical in-service fighting concerning air assets to the fleet for reconnaissance and general support as the concept of joint service cooperation was extremely limited especially to the Navy. Bob O'Donovan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Mike.Dunn@dresdner-bank.com Subject: Re: HMS Ocean >> A couple of weeks ago, a very excited Peter Hall phoned us up, begging us to come and visit for TWO very good reasons. << Peter Hall? Ex-teacher? >> 1. HMS Ocean was being adopted by the City of Sunderland and would be paying a visit, and we could get on board and 2. One of the WEM illustrators, David Warden, who lives in Washington (the original one, that is..) was having a Burns night... well, we couldn't say no, so off we trogged to the chilly North-East of England..<< What, there are OTHER people in the Sunderland area that do these things? Damn! I've moved South now! >> She is capable of carrying 12 x HC4 Seakings, and 6 x Lynx AH7 or 6 x Gazelles, or it can carry 12 x Sea Harriers in its ferry role. The ship's primary role is to carry an Embarked Military Force with the afore-mentioned air support, and 4 x LCVP Mk 5 landing craft. Secondary roles include a limited ASW platform and a base for anti-terrorist operations. << Interestingly, now she's left the Port, she is doing trials of the Chinook for future deployments. Now THAT would be an interesting sight for a RN warship going into battle! >> The first thing that strikes you is the hydraulically operated starboard side loading ramp, wide enough for the largest vehicles to drive aboard. << I understand that there's also a vehicle ramp from this deck up to the flight-deck - no more waiting around for the lift! >> As for a kit.. well, we now have drawings and we also have enough photos to fill in those missing details.. 1/700 Scale .. mebbe one day if we get enough interest! << As I told Dave, COUNT ME IN! Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Vimieraa@aol.com Subject: Re: Any color in the universe I must thank the gentlemen for suggesting an upcoming epiphany. When you get to my age these don't come too often. in fact I haven't had one for about ten days and it can be frustrating. however it does not bother me too much unlike the late President Kennedy, who used to get a headache if he didn't have an epiphany every day. As for the right side/left side of ones brain. I've always preferred to go through life using the seat of my pants --- much more fun. On the question of scale effect, I have listened to. and read about this for all of forty years. To put it delicately, it's rubbish; has been, and always will be. I once made a model of the liner Mauritania (second of the name) at 1"=16feet. The model came out at around five feet long, scale effect on this, is of course nonsense. It smacks of the very old ship modeling canard (one that dates from the nineteen thirties) of 'selection and rejection of detail', coupled with the line, 'if it looks right it is right'. Well, this is what I say: If it looks right it MAY be right, and ------- if it looks right it may NOT be right. I have seen a million, no, make that two million ship models in my time and many have been superbly constructed but have been wrong in many respects. I once spoke to a modeler who said that he wasn't concerned about getting the underwater shape of the hull correct as it wasn't important, and anyway who would know? I once spoke to the editor of a warship series, who told me that he was not concerned about getting the close range weapons fit listed correctly as nobody was really interested in such things. I once spoke to an author who told me that he did not intend to include any close up, detailed photos in his book because it would confuse people. Thankfully this book is long out of print. I once spoke to the author of a well known book on R/N camouflage. who told me that he only put the book together at the insistence of the publisher, and that he was not really interesed in the subject. When I mentioned that in that least one instance a piece of art showed a 1941 patten on one side and on the other side, the 1943 design!, he said that it didn't matter and who knew anyway. A modeler once told me that he knew that his model should be painted in Mountbattern Pink, but that he was going to paint it in the standard grey because it looked better. A modeler once told me that all comouflage colors were various shades of grey. He refused to hear otherwise. A modeler once told me that he did not worry about getting his radar aerials correct, just as long as they looked right. I once saw a model of a R/N fast minelayer where the three stacks were of equal height (which was incorrect). The modeler said that he didn't care about this as long as the model 'looked right'. And on and on and on. What matter the obtaining of accurate references as long as the model 'looks right'. Who cares that a model of the Queen Mary is painted with red funnels. Who cares that a model of an Atlanta Class Cruiser does not have the underwater knuckle line. Who cares if the rake of the stacks is off by several degrees. And who cares that the color chips sold by Snyder and Short are acccurate, because scale effect and weathering and fading is more important. And who cares that wee tri two obtain akurate day ta at the bee ginning ass long as it looks rite, wright? Eye wrest mi kase. ROTFL, Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "Douglas Martin" Subject: 'Laser Type' thingies. Folks: So the RN had mini 'Star Wars' type 'weapons', on Warships in the Falklands campaign, the truth is out! When I first read this post I thought, 'odd' but some of you seem to know about these things. I was aboard quite a few RN Warships in Rosyth at Navy days, in those years, purely on a private basis, never noticed a thing....... Seriously, that campaign showed up a lot of deficiencies in modern warships, with many lessons having to be 're-learned' from previous conflicts. It will be interesting to see what capacity the 2 new RN CVs that will be built in the next 10? years to replace the Invincibles, will have in air complement and weaponry. I see no reason for this topic not to be discussed, 'National Security' is one of these dubious methods of covering up what we need to know, or an excuse to hide 'foul ups'..... Oi/Kitakami. From memory, back when the first 1/700 Waterline kits came out, each Tamiya kit came with a 'picture' of all the models available in the range and I'm sure Kitakami was one, but with a cut down stern as in the Kaiten version. Mikuma was also on the list of ships, but has never appeared in the shops ever, as far as I know. I only got my 'Fuso' kit about 10 years ago, and for some unfathomable reason Tamiya never built a 'Yorktown CV5', why only do Hornet and Enterprise when they did all other capital ships in a class?. I think other 1/700 W/L kits although on this 'photo montage' may never have been kitted? Douglas (One day I'll build the stockpile, maybe.........) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: BILL HENSLER Subject: Re: Ex-Soviet Carriers >> "The Washington Post carried a story yesterday that the ex-Soviet carriers Minsk and Varyag have been bought by Chinese commercial developers to be turned into floating amusement parks" << The Wall Street Journal had a prequel to that story. The speculation on the Varyag is she will be torn apart by the Chinese government and her hulk will be used to "reverse engineer" possible prototypes for future Chinese supercarriers. The US makes it a point of scrapping or making museums out of its old carriers. Old weapons can come back to haunt the seller. Bill Hensler -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: Pieter Cornelissen Subject: Re: national security >> National security? This is an international list, not just USA, and we are talking UK weaponry anyway! Regarding email, it is a non-guaranteed delivery that can be duplicated/intercepted at any point in it's progression, if you know what you're doing. However, there is so much email generated these days, systems can't scan everything! << Oh yes they can, and it's being done on quite a large scale. In Europe most european intelligence agencies and the NSA are working together in a system called 'Echelon' which filters ALL electronic transmissions in Europe on certain keywords (like 'echelon'; Hi guys!). This is an extension of a similar NSA run system that monitors the rest of the world. That said, one shouldn't feel worried about it. Unless you are living in Britain, China or Singapore the actual use of information from the system is technically illegal (something like searching you house without a warrant) and acting upon such information would bring authorities in a position in which they would have to explain things they don't want to explain (sorry for my english). Most governments use a 'neither confirm nor deny' attitude about this system. Second, I rather doubt that modellers get really sensitive information anyway, as most sensitive information has nothing to do with how hardware looks like and if it does it's very easy to rig a desinformation campaign (remember the F 19?). In short, all official infomation on current militay objects is suspect, but that has been the case since the good old days of the Russo-Japanese war. It won't deter me from building nice models of ships and I do like the amount of educated guesssing that's a part of building, for example, modern day Soviest vessels. Pieter Cornelissen Delft, The Netherlands (Where it's been raining for days now which got me grounded with a serious flue.) I hope you get better soon Pieter. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: "Robert Lockie" Subject: French naval guns A friend who is interested in the use of naval guns in British coastal defences has come across a reference to the use of French 138mm M1910s in such defences during WW2. Apparently they were taken from two French battleships interned at Portsmouth in 1940, the Paris and Corbert(?). He is keen to find out anything about them, particularly drawings or photographs, and evidence for their use in British coastal defences. Can anyone out there help? He already has the John Campbell book 'Naval Weapons of World War 2' and also 'Jane's Fighting Ships of WW2'. Robert Lockie Cambridge UK -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Kevin Wenker Subject: Re: 1/32 PT PE First, the virus warning is an absolute hoax. Pay it no mind. All the emails about these things is almost as bad as the virus. I am in the computer industry and we deal with these daily. Repeat: The Bullfrog virus is a hoax. Second, I would be interested in Al producing a sheet of photoetch for a 1/32 PT. He does and I will (take one, that is). Kevin Wenker -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: Dave Judy Subject: Re: Viking Models contact I contacted Mr. Slaughter a number of times in the past with this number,1-800-786-5292. I haven't used it lately, so I hope it will help! Dave Judy -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: Chris Neel Subject: Re: Viking Models I was able to get through at Viking@eastland.net, however, my response came from msgross@eastland.net, the author of the response was: Teresa N. Slaughter VP Operations Viking Models 1005 West 7th Street Cisco, TX 76437 Phone 254-442-1474 Fax 254-442-3270" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: Baker Subject: USN DIRECTORS, ETC. For those who want to know which directors and associated fire control systems were on USN ships at specific times, the most authoritative source is the U.S. Navy publication ARMAMENT SUMMARIES. Copies of the WWII era editions (which were updated at about three month intervals toward the end of the war) are held at the Navy Library at the Naval Historical Center at the Washington Navy Yard, and the Ships Histories Branch there (under John C. Reilly) can probably supply the necessary information by consulting them. Listed were such items as the director marks and mods, the stable elements, and the associated radars (although the user was expected to know which radar went with which system). The publication still exists, although, after a period when it was unclassified, it is again classified CONFIDENTIAL,apparantly more to forestall public (i.e., enthusiasts, modellers, and naval reference book editors) inquiries than for any need to protect the information from the shrivelled remnants of the Russian Navy. By the way, Mare Island was not the only yard to shoot those glorious crane shots; similar work was done at Puget Sound (and is in the National Archives) and at Philadelphia (from which it seems mostly to have disappeared). A.D. Baker, III -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: Baker Subject: Re: SHIPBOARD TRANSPORTATION & PAINT COLORS With regard to the reports of odd vehicles being carried by warships from time to time, during the Vietman War, my ship, the U.S.S. CAMP (DER 251) thought we were pretty sporty when we purchased a round reed boat from a Vietnamese fisherman and painted the 5-ft. diameter craft in haze gray with black boottopping. We used her as a paint punt to touch up our own waterline. We were much chagrined when another DER in our squadron bought an entire Vietnamese junk about 18-ft. long and transported her atop the after deckhouse back to Pearl Harbor. By the way, the haze gray that we used varied considerably in shade from lot to lot and manufacturer. When in a yard period, it was standard procedure to mix the cans of paint together in 55-gallon drums to obtain a reasonably uniform appearance when painting out ship; at sea or in foreign ports, a touch-up generally resulted in a rather piebald appearance after a while (and, of course, if you traded ships's trash and garbage for a free paint job in Hong Kong, it usually peeled off within a few weeks, which looked even worse). Bottom line is that, at least as things were 20 years ago, while there may have been an "official" haze gray, the real thing was quite noticably variable in shade. A.D. Baker, III -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: Paint Chips Question Sean: You're correct in your assumption: modelers can use their favorite brand of paint to match to the chips. You're also correct in noting the color change as paint dries: it usually darkens. So, keep careful notes about mix proportions, paint a test patch, let it dry, compare it, adjust as necessary. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 26) From: John Snyder Subject: More on paint >> IMHO, this caveat emptor holds as well for the reference of paint chips. While perfectly usable as 1:1 references, their value diminishes as model scale is reduced because of the white that must be mixed in >to give proper scale effect. << Ah, not quite correct. Scale effect is not that big a deal--it's just a matter of chroma adjustment. BUT, the real value of the chips is in getting the HUE correct before adjusting for scale effect. That's been the big problem with the Floquil marine colors: they were way off in hue to begin with, being largely too yellow. If you don't start with the correct hue, you're just not going to in the right ball park whether you stay with a 1:1 chroma, or lighten for scale effect. A rose may be a rose by any other name, but gray ain't necessarily gray.... John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 27) From: CBNJBB62@aol.com Subject: Re: Various posts I have this to share for Don Bridge about the modern combat ships: BOOK 1 -LEANDER CLASS -ISBN-0-7110-1385-3 BOOK 2-INVINCIBLE CLASS -ISBN-0-7110-1386-1 BOOK 3-TYPE-42 -ISBN-0-7110-1453-1 BOOK 4-TYPE-22 -ISBN-0-7110-1593-7 For Shane about the ARK ROYAL it seems she had a refit in England from Sept,1940 to Nov,1940.I don't know what kind work was done because it's not listed the book Aircraft carriers of the Royal and Commonwealth navies. Oh for Rob Weilacher the rumored ships were showned in the 1998 SKYWAVE catalogue as possibles for production. TAKAO and ATAGO ca's, DD-429 Livermore class DD were in it. Sincerely Craig Bennett -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 28) From: IBea351423@aol.com Subject: Re: Rules of the Game In reply to Kashyap from seatraining school who I could not access, the Rules of The Game by Andrew Gordon was published in 1996 by John Murray. ISBN 0-7195-5076 9 A superb read. Ian Beattie -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 29) From: "Michael C. Smith" Subject: Re: USS Enterprise references Ian (and others): I saw the Enterprise, Eisenhower and Vinson at Norfolk in Nov. of 1997 and have bow-on, starboard quarter, and port quarter pictures of Enterprise from the pier. That may not be anything you don't already have, but e-mail me off-list if they'd be useful and I'll scan them and send them to you. Michael Smith Marshall, Texas -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 30) From: "Michael C. Smith" Subject: Re: Fujimi USS Lexington Chris: I'd just slice the deck supports off, backfill with sheet plastic for support, add the new flight deck for support and to get the shape right, patch with sheet plastic and putty, then sand smooth. I do not know if the resulting hull contour is correct, but it'd be as close as this kit allows. And is this your lucky day or what? Five or six years ago I worked my tail off for weeks tracing hull lines and forms, superstructure decks and profiles and flight deck outlines to do a scratchbuilt 1/700 Lexington (as built) from the original builder's plans. I reduced the 1/96 builder's plans to 1/192, traced them to eliminate the extraneous detail, and then reduced the hull lines and flight deck outline down to 1/350 - the island platforms and detailed flight deck are still probably 1/192. I tried to do it in a logical fashion so I could build a model from it Contact me off-line by e-mail and I'd be glad to scan in what I can of the bow lines and flight deck outlines for this section. Should be plenty to get the bow right, at least. After looking at the plans, I just decided that if I was going to have to change the hull contours in the stern, build a new flight deck, and scratchbuild the entire island, why bother with the kit? I've done a scratchbuilt Wasp (CV-7) and Texas (BB-35) in 1/700 scale, so how hard could a Lexington be? Of course I have ended up doing nothing, so maybe that wasn't such a good plan after all! Anyway, drop me a line and I'll see what I can get scanned in. Of course I'll want pictures of the finished product in return! Michael Smith Marshall, Texas -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 31) From: "Charles Wegman" Subject: Warping young minds, Security, Weather Hey Y'all, Finally had to chime in. >> I have a bunch (over 100) of Waterline Series ship models of Cruisers, Destroyers and Submarines. They are taking up space, and I am wondering if I should try to sell them, give them away, or just dumpsterize them. << DON'T PITCH YOUR SHIPS! As I read this, two immediate options came to mind. The first might require a small investment of time on your part. Donate them to kids (preferably kids without BB guns and fireworks) so that we may indoctrinate them to our way of thinking and grow our space on hobby shop shelves across the world. I was thinking maybe the local Scout Master could set you up for a meeting where you could explain either the historical or modeling side of your fleet. Then you give 'em away and start some smoke between those kids' ears. The second option is to put them up for sale on ebay. I've seen built models, like you're describing, average about $4.00 a piece. To get that price, you have to be able to post photos though. Not big money, but maybe enough to get one really nice kit by the time you're done. Note from Shane: What a GREAT idea. >> An interesting question has been brought up indirectly about military technology. A person asked a question about laser technology. We should be careful as what were asking as it may reveal something that isn't normally made available. << What a hoot! We have a president who "allegedly" sold satellite Plans/Technology to Red China and you're worried that we're giving away valuable military secrets? Anybody with intent, a camera and a library card knows at least as much as we do so I wouldn't sweat it. >> Just joking, mate. Pure jealousy, that's all!! After this ex-Texan (Gulf Coast) spent this early AM chipping ice off of his New Jersey windshield (windscreen?). But the really fun part is that I can do it all over again in the morning! << Great Gene, Tell everybody you're a Texan! Then they'll figure out your true identity and our second invasion plans... Oops! Did I mention that I have a camera and a library card? Doesn't matter anyway. President...err Governor Bush keeps demobilizing more and more units every time he reads Bob Steinbrunn's weather reports (Who really needs icicles? We'll let 'em keep them for now and wait 'till it's sunny and warm, like here. That's the way we did it the first time). Chuck Wegman Interplanetary Death Squad Supervisor No. 34 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 32) From: "Charles Wegman" Subject: Re: Virus Warning In regards to the urgent Bud Frogs Screensaver Virus, may I direct your attention to: http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html My Great Grandpa told me to "believe none of what I heard and half of what I see". This definitely holds true with any "Virus Warnings". The problem is that the majority of computer users (I just drive this thing, I don't know how it works) are gullible because of lack of information (just like muffler bearings on a car). Hopefully this site can help educate you, my fellow SMMLers. As with everything else though, think about what you're getting and who you're getting it from. I might be worried if it was a F*@#%r Screensaver set, then again maybe not. Chuck Wegman Interplanetary Death Squad Supervisor No. 34 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 33) From: Reidar.Berg@notes.dynoind.com Subject: USS San Francisco in scale 1:350 I have decided to go for USS San Francisco (CA38) in scale 1:350. In this respect I have notice that there are two companies producing this ship in resin, Classic Warships and Accurate Image Models. Which of these kits shall I go for (accuracy, details, price)? Reidar Berg, Narvik, Norway -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: BSteinIPMS@aol.com Subject: Large scale weapons kits This e-mail was in reply to my enquiry regarding the availability of resin-cast naval weapons kits. The writer sounds like a gentleman. Bob Steinbrunn Minneapolis (where he is astonished to have measured his porch-hanging icicles at 37"...) Bob; Apologies for being tardy in my response to your inquiry but I was caught off guard by Graham's posting which iniated your inquiry to begin with! Hopefully you have read his follow up message that some of his initial news was not entirely accurate. I will explain by giving a short history. Many years ago I began building SCALE ship radio controlled models. I have since focused on 1:48 scale because it allowed me to get down to real "nuts and bolts" detailng levels. Building in 1;48 has some drawbacks though; the obvious is finished size of the model but the most important was the sparsity of kits and fittings. Because plans can be found if one does some research, the lack of kits isn't a hinderance as I have developed the ability to scratch build from plans. The lack of fittings, however, prompted me to get involved in the resin casting business. I'm pretty good at scratch building the first item but to build 8 more just like it was a different matter. So I learned to cast. From this I have developed a small fittings business under the name "QuarterMaster". The fittings list has grown over the years and I have expanded into 1:32 and 1:24 scales as well. The 1:48 line features items that I developed due to my building a 1:48 fletcher class destroyer [USS Kidd] circa. 1945. The larger scale items are predominantly tugboat fittings. There's a big market for these in California. Now to the guns. As Graham mentioned, The 5"38 cal. single mounts have been available for sometime. These are the turrets not the open mounts. There are 20 or more pcs. which include a 1 pc. turret shell, machined aluminum gun tube, deck mount [2 pc.] plus all hatches, doors, etc that would be seen externally. When finished, the mount will swivel and the guntube can be moved over its range. Currently the price is $35.00 but that may change soon. Still debating that one. The 40 mm. bofors is presently under development. So far the 2 pc. mount, pedestal, gun body are complete. This is being done as a twin mount. When the twins are done, I will do the quads.I do have a limited number of machined gun tubes for this as well. If you know of anybody that can machine additional tubes for me please let me know. The 20 mm. will also be done but not for a while yet. These things do take time. I havn't been able to find anyone that can machine gun tubes for this but I'm still pursuing that . Again, I would appreciate you putting the word out. Thanks for inquiring and sorry if the announcment was premature but I WILL get these things done. Smooth Sailing, Bob Thomas "QuarterMaster" P.S. Please forward this message to members of your SMML group. Thanks.>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Mark Knowlton Subject: USS Enterprise 1996 Cruise Book For Sale I have this book for sale as I have been noticing alot of people looking for some kind of reference for the Big E lately. The book is the official Cruise Book that is published after every cruise. It is full color and 687 pages and very heavy. It has shots of all areas of the ship and of course pitures of the crew like a High School yearbook. I would like to sell it for $50.00 and $5.00 shipping in the US. Reply to my email if interested. Mark Knowlton -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume