Subject: SMML20/03/99VOL490 Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 00:16:50 +1100 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Degaussing cables 2: LCI's 3: Re: How to reproduce water? 4: Re: De-gaussing cables. Still lost 5: Loose Cannon web site 6: IJN rocket launchers 7: Re: Victory at Sea CDs 8: WW2 Naval Warfare overview 9: Re: Degausing cable question 10: Fixing holes in resin splinter shields 11: Re: Questions: Naval Guns and U.S.Drydocks 12: Re: Degausing cable question 13: Re: Victory at Sea soundtrack 14: Re: How to reproduce water 15: New Book 16: Lady Lex 17: Skywave 1:700 LPH??? 18: Minesweepers 19: Re: De-Guassing cables 20: Re: Degausing 21: Re: Degausing 22: Enterprise Battlegroup 23: Cairo stack color 24: Re: degaussing 25: Flower Class Corvettes 26: Fletchers at the IPMS(USA) Nats 27: Re: Degausing cable question 28: Re: Iwo Jima LPH 29: Re: 1/700 Auxillaries 30: webtv 31: Re: Goodbye Wright & Logan 32: degaussing cables -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Gene Larson Subject: Re: Degaussing cables Shane wrote: >> Degaussing cables were used to literally de-gauss the ship to produce either a positive or negative charge to the ship. << Degaussing was/is the removal of magnetic fields in a ship, not positive and negative charges. The purpose was to provide better protection against magnetic mines. Gene Larson, Alexandria, Virginia mailto:genenrg@Naut-Res-Guild.org Nautical Research Guild, Inc. http://www.Naut-Res-Guild.org "A non-profit, tax exempt, educational organization with international membership, dedicated to maritime research and accurate ship model Note from a verrrry sheepish Shane :-(( Hi gang, I must apologise for not checking my answer against my references. I typed up my answer in the morning & then promptly forgot about checking it, before sending SMML out last night. Sorry, Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Colin Ritchie Subject: LCI's Hi there , This is a strange request but stay with me on this. My wife has been badgering me to build the new Tamiya 1/35th "Dragon Wagon" US WWII tank transporter, (I'm not an AFV builder normally but when was the last time a wife/partner was badgering you to spend £80 on a kit?). However I want to add something other than a burned out tank on the back. I've come across a photo taken in 1945 of said wagon hauling a small infantry type landing craft, in preparation or a river crossing. So here's the question, do we as a group know of any models of small landing craft wthat would fit the bill? I have an idea for a transporter heaving the LCI into a river, anybody done water in 35th scale?...... Colin Ritchie -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Les Dorr Jr." Subject: Re: How to reproduce water? >> It's the first time I build a 1/700 waterline ship model (Italian W.W.I battleship Dante Alighieri) and I don't know how to reproduce water. Can you help me? << I haven't actually tried this yet, but how about crinkled, painted aluminum foil? Several years ago there was a Fine Scale Modeler cover showing a 1/700 USS KIdd underway on an "ocean" of blue-painted crinkled-up foil. I think the white foam and wake were some kind of household caulking. Looked totally convincing to me. Les "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: De-gaussing cables. Still lost >> Degaussing cables were used to literally degauss the ship to produce either a positive or negative charge to the ship. << I'm still lost. What is Gauss and why would anyone care whether the ship had a positive or negative charge? Keep it simple, I'm 600 miles from the ocean. The closest ships here are in the local hobby shop. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Loose Cannon web site >> Hugh L thank you very much for the heads up on the Loose Cannon kits but where do I contact them?? << You can find Loose Cannon's banner on the Warship home page. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "FERNANDO, YOHAN" Subject: IJN rocket launchers Hi all, I was wondering if anyone had any details about the rocket batteries installed on late-war IJN carriers. Besides looking really cool sitting there on the sponsons, how effective were they? (My guess is not at all). Are there any reports by US pilots of their use in combat against them? Thanks. Yohan Fernando -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: NEFFD@dteenergy.com Subject: Re: Victory at Sea CDs For the Soundtrack to "Victory at Sea" try: Collectors' Choice Music PO Box 838 Itasca. IL 60143-0838 www.ccmusic.com (800) 923-1122 They have a lot of music you can't get in the music stores and their service is good. They do not have the "V at S" soundtrack listed in their current catalog, but I suspect they have it. I suggest you search their website for it. Don Neff Novi, MI, USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: JGordon262@aol.com Subject: WW2 Naval Warfare overview In the March 1999 issue of Atlantic Monthly magazine can be found an article entitled "Victory At Sea" (no points for originality) by David M. Kennedy. Its a 19 page overview of the Atlantic and Pacific theatres of war, written in an in-depth but very readable style with maps and photos of the main personalities. I thought it was an excellent read, presenting the US, Japanese, and German agendas, in that order of importance. Very much worth seeking out. BTW, the joint US Navy/Marines "Operation Urban Warrior" anti-terrorist exercises concluded here yesterday. Some of the warships will be on display here today and tomorrow. Ah, definitely a Saturday to look forward to! JG -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "JTI - Marc Clupper" Subject: Re: Degausing cable question Ships, like any other mass, have a small, but noticeable effect on the Earth's magnetic field. The Germans (in early W.W.II) had made a very effective mine detonator that detected this change in the magnetic field as a ship passed nearby or overhead. The Allies lost many ships early in the war due to this type of anti-ship mine. One night, during the Blitz (I think), a German plane was spotted dropping one of these mines in the Thames. (Due mostly to the fact that a safety arming mechanism had mistakenly been left it and that the mine landed in a mud flat, the mine was safely recovered by the British). After dissecting the mine, the British discovered that it measured variations in the magnetic field and the detonated if a significant change was detected. Degaussing cables developed and then were wrapped around a vessels hull and then electrically charged in order to create an Electro-magnetic field around the ship. This Electro-magnetic field had the effect of "reducing" the magnetic signature of the ship to allow it to safely pass these types of mines. If I remember correctly, the use of degaussing cables was discontinued later in the war as new techniques to degauss the ships hull directly were developed. There exists a good documentary that covers the whole story in detail. There was even one incident cited where a merchant captain had safely navigated a mined channel. The ship docked and the captain ordered the degaussing system turned off. Unfortunately, the ship had stopped directly over one of the mines and instantly blew up. Hope that answered your question. Regards, Marc Clupper Please visit www.1250fleets.com and enjoy! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Alan Lindstrom" Subject: Fixing holes in resin splinter shields Any suggestions on how to fix the holes, gaps, voids, etc, that sometimes appear in splinter shields and other thin parts on resin kits? Thanks, Alan Danville, CA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Jon Parshall Subject: Re: Questions: Naval Guns and U.S.Drydocks >> 1) Are there any resources that deal with large calibre naval guns, in particular their construction, design, differences in calibre, ranges, penetration power, difference in shells, etc. << John Campbell's "Naval Weapoons of World War II" is an excellent book on this topic, and gives details on construction techniques for the large ordnance of the major combatants. The whole topic of armor penetration is, of course, near and dear to my heart, so you might want to check out the portion of my site devoted to it: http://www.skypoint.com/members/jbp/gunarmor.htm Here you will find some tools for brute-forcing your way through armor penetration questions. If you get really involved in this stuff, contact me directly (mailto:jonp@key-tech.net) and I may be able to help out, or put you in touch with people like Nathan Okun, who *really* know the topic area. Cheers, jon parshall- Imperial Japanese Navy Homepage http://www.skypoint.com/members/jbp/kaigun.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Kenneth H. Goldman" Subject: Re: Degausing cable question Shane's answer to Rusty's question explained what degaussing cables do, but he left out why. The idea was to, in essence, reduce the ships magnetic signature, thus making it less vulnerable to magnetic exploders on mines and torpedoes.. Ken Goldman THE WALRUS AND THE CARPENTER http://www.wman.com/~khgold/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "Kenneth H. Goldman" Subject: Re: Victory at Sea soundtrack Sorry, people, I can no longer resist: The score for Victory at Sea was composed by Richard Rogers, NOT Rogers and Hammerstein. Hammerstein was the lyricist on the team's musicals. Since there were no words to Rogers Victory at Sea music, Hammerstein would have been bored just sitting there. Robert Russel Bennett was the conductor. Ken THE WALRUS AND THE CARPENTER http://www.wman.com/~khgold/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "Kenneth H. Goldman" Subject: Re: How to reproduce water Rusty did write an excellent article on modeling water, but there are almost as many methods as there are modelers, and all of them are correct if they achieve the desired results. Paolo Pizzi used to use toothpaste! I use a product called Das Pronto. The results of my technique can be seen on my website, which includes an article in the Blue Book section about the theory behind modeling water. Ken Goldman THE WALRUS AND THE CARPENTER http://www.wman.com/~khgold/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: John Snyder Subject: New Book While visiting an old friend, now the California State Archivist, in his office last week, I noticed a book lying on a coffee table in his reception area as we were walking out to go get a cup of coffee. It was--appropriately enough--a coffee table style volume titled _Blue Water Beat: The Two Lives of the Battleship USS California_. Written by George Gruner, it was recently published by the Maritime Museum in San Francisco. I did a quick flip through it and decided I needed it for my library. Not finding any way to web-access the Museum's bookstore, I ended up ordering it from Amazon.com. I'll do a quick review for SMML when it shows up. It appeared to begin with an earlier CALIFORNIA, and ended with the CGN CALIFORNIA, but the bulk of the book is BB-44. I glanced at some great-looking photos, so am looking forward to the book's arrival. BTW, seeing my interest, my friend took me over to a box that had arrived for accession into the State Archives: it was all the author's materials, and one suspects perhaps even some photos he chose not to use. I'm going back soon to check out that box.... John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Mark McKellar Subject: Lady Lex I received my issue of National Geographic today and there is a short artcle w/pics of the Lexington at rest 3 miles deep. Neat stuff.... Mark (and Spring is just around the corner...) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "Les Dorr Jr." Subject: Skywave 1:700 LPH??? >> According to Hobbyweb, Jim Shirley had an Iwo Jima in 1/700, out of production I'm sure, Skywave has one around US$27. << First I've heard of a Skywave LPH. Anybody have info on this kit, if it exists? I'm intrigued by the relatively reasonable price tag. Les "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: CHRIS DRAGE Subject: Minesweepers Hi all, If it's minesweepers wer're talking about then my 2ps worth includes: Halcyon Class Bangor Class Caroline....? Regards, Chris He tao rakau e taea te karo, tena he tao kupa kaore e taea te karo.... (Te reo Maori) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: "Douglas Martin" Subject: Re: De-Guassing cables Rusty: These cables will be seen on most warships of WW2 and were designed to 'de-magnetise' the ships magnetic field, in order to counter 'magnetic' mines - which would otherwise have gone off in the vicinity of the warship. Douglas (Scotland) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Bradford Chaucer Subject: Re: Degausing >> Degaussing cables were used to literally de-gauss the ship to produce either a positive or negative charge to the ship. Gauss being the imperial? measurement for EM induction, which has since been replaced by the tesla unit of measurement. << Not to quibble, but degausing is a process of eliminating a magnetic field. It has nothing to do with positive or negative charges which would be electrosataic, not magnetic. Degausing is employed to lessen the hazzard of iron or magnetic mines which would be attracted to a magneticized hull. Regards, Bradford Chaucer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: Pieter Cornelissen Subject: Re: Degausing >> Degaussing cables were used to literally de-gauss the ship to produce either a positive or negative charge to the ship. Gauss being the imperial? measurement for EM induction, which has since been replaced by the tesla unit of measurement. << That doesn't answer the question, I think. Degaussing was the answer to the development of magnetic mines (or influence mines). These mines reacted to the disturbance in the earth's magnetic field by a large mass of metal like a ship. When a large mass of metal moves through water it creates a magnetic 'wake' which was used to set off a mine. As this wake is strongest under the keel of a ship these mines had much more effect then classic 'contact' mines. A well placed magnetic mine could break a ships' back, leading to a write-off (or something like it; HMS Belfast's 2.5 year docking period). By putting a current through a degaussing cable the ships' magnetic filed was not neutralised but altered in character, so magnetic mines wouldn't recognize it. This type of protection was not exaxtly fail-safe, and modern ships are designed in a way that reduces a ship's magnetic signature and/or makes it easy to neutralise the magnetic wake. Pieter Cornelissen -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: "K. Hagerup" Subject: Enterprise Battlegroup I'm finally getting around to building my Tamiya 1/350 Enterprise and wish to display her in a waterline diorama unrepping an escort. I would like to know the names of any Spruance class DDs that were in Enterprise's battlegroup in the same timeframe as depicted in the Tamiya Enterprise kit's configuration. Thanks, Ken -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: "Duane W. Christensen" Subject: Cairo stack color Along the thread of info about ironclad data, A friend visited the Cairo at Vicksburg and was given a sheet listing the colored recognition bands painted on the stacks of the city class ironclads. Cairo: Gray. Carondelet: Red. Cincinnati: Blue. Louisville: Green. Mound City: Orange. Pittsburg: Light Brown. Baron DeKalb: Yellow. Of course there is little chance of finding out the exact shade of each color, but there it is. Duane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: SantMin@aol.com Subject: Re: degaussing Rusty, The degaussing coils of a ship actually created a magnetic field that canceled out the natural magnetic field of the ship and it's electronic equipment, thereby making her neutral. This was a defense against magnetic mines and torpedoes. Cheers, Bob Santos -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: Flower Class Corvettes Chris Buttercup was a Harland and Wolf built ship. The others built in that shipyard to exactly the same design, were:- Abelia, Anchusa, Arabis (1st), Armeria, Aster, Vervain (ex Broom), Bryony, Calendula, Camellia, Crysanthemum, Clarkia, Cowslip, Eglantine, Erica, Freesia, Fritillary, Genista, Gentian, Gloriosa, Gloxinia, Harebell, Heather, Hemlock, Hibiscus, Hyacinth, Ivy, Kingcup, Ling, Mallow, Majoram, Orchis, Heartsease (ex Pansy), Peony, Periwinkle, Picotee, Pimpernel, Rhododendron. Every other original Flower would have been very similar except for individual yard variations and of those you list all except Alisma (another Harland +ACY- Wolf ship) were Canadian Flowers. Hope this is of help. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 26) From: Ed Grune Subject: Fletchers at the IPMS(USA) Nats Howdy: How is everybody coming with their 1/700th Fletcher entries for the IPMS(USA) Nats? The contest is 4 months away and its time to check on progress. For those of you who tuned in late -- The SMML participants have agreed to build some 1/700th Fletcher destroyers for the IPMS National Convention being held in Orlando. We hope to have enough of the same class of ship on the table to attract attention to our branch of the hobby and hopefully generate a split category. So everybody, lets get working on your submissions. The more the merrier. I'm building the Tamiya Fletcher. I've grafted on the Skywave lower hull. I hope to paint the decks this evening & apply the base coat for the camoflage later tonight or first thing in the morning. I'm using Tom's detail set too. I also have a completed USS Pringle - equiped with a Kingfisher - thats completed and waiting to be boxed up for the trip. Ed Mansfield, TX Two weeks ago the governor declared a drought emergency; it hasn't stoped raining since! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 27) From: "Bill & Kaja Michaels" Subject: Re: Degausing cable question >> Degaussing cables were used to literally de-gauss the ship to produce either a positive or negative charge to the ship. Gauss being the imperial? measurement for EM induction, which has since been replaced by the tesla unit of measurement. << Great answer, Shane, but you forgot one important fact: Why they're used. The cables are used to make the ship less vulnerable to magnetic mines. Bill and Kaja Michaels -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 28) From: ECammeron@aol.com Subject: Re: Iwo Jima LPH Ships converted to LPH types were CVE Thetis Bay, (The first LPH), long hull ESSEX class BOXER, PRINCETON and VALLEY FORGE. After Thetis Bay commissioned and was found to be of value, a plan was to developed to convert the CVE BLOCK ISLAND (COMMENCEMENT BAY Class) to an LPH. The plan was dropped when it was realized the unmodernized ESSEX class ships would be an even better platform. The seven IWO JIMA Class LPHs came out in the 1960's: IWO JIMA, OKINAWA, GUADALCANAL, TRIPOLI, INCHON, NEW ORLEANS and GUAM. Eugene Cammeron -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 29) From: ECammeron@aol.com Subject: Re: 1/700 Auxillaries Other 1/700 Auxillaries to add were AO CIMARRON and SALAMONIE from Naval Works. Both T-3 AOs, CIMARRON as in 1942, SALAMONIE as in 1944. Naval Works also did AD HAMUL (C-3) and AV CUMBERLAND SOUND. As Doc Modell (WSW) did a French AO for a while. As well as their APA CALLOWAY. Some other possibilities using the BOGUE/ATTACKER C-3 Hulls - Repair Ships, some sub tenders, destroyer tenders, transports and seaplane tenders. And you can come up with lots of special purpose repair ships by converting the Skywave LST. Eugene Cammeron -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 30) From: Jowfx@webtv.net (John Fox) Subject: webtv I just want to thank everyone who offered to help us poor souls with this webtv spambloc thing. It is very much appreciated. Hopefully this mess will be cleared up soon. Thanks again. John Fox -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 31) From: Sanartjam@aol.com Subject: Re: Goodbye Wright & Logan I recently saw an article about Wright & Logan going out of business on March 31 after being in business 75 years. For those in the UK, I understand there's sale on from March 16th to the 31st. Sad, but I can't say I'm too surprised, since the only inquiry I sent to Wright & Logan went unanswered. It will be interesting to see what happens to the collection of naval photographs. Art Nicholson -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 32) From: SJantscher@aol.com Subject: degaussing cables Hi All, To further expound on Shane’s pretty good explanation for degaussing cables, I think he may have left some area of confusion concerning degaussing. Most lay people will confuse the term “charge” to mean some form of electrical voltage or amperage. In the case of ships, an electrical charge is a disadvantage because of voltaic corrosion, ie. the difference in electrical potential between the ocean and the ship will cause severe corrosion to the ship. This is not what degaussing cables are for. To counteract this problem engineers a long time ago developed what are called sacrificial “plates” or “metals” made up of a more easily corrosive metal (than steel and iron), so the ship’s electrical charge causing corrosion will be dissipated through the plates, and not through something important like the ship’s hull.These plates are attached firmly to the hull below the waterline. Most of you with outboards have a small replaceable sacrificial metal somewhere on the outside of the lower unit. Now back to the degaussing cable, and what it does. In fact, it is simply to make the ship neutral magnetically. Large capitol ships have the extra electrical generating capacity that will constantly energize the cables (wound lengthwise around the ship). (Not counting the fact that they are extremely valuable, as is the copper degaussing lines.) Smaller vessels will have to be degaussed either by passing slowly through a degaussing range (an area of a harbor with submerged electrical cables that generate a “counter” magnetic effect) or in port having temporary cables strung lengthwise around the ship, to do the same that permanently attached cables do for the large capital ships. The length of time this “treatment” lasts is variable based on the region of the earth the ship travels over. As a (iron/steel) ship cruises the oceans, it also continually passes through differing regions of the earth’s magnetic field, thus building up it’s own magnetic field again. Now why do this? Ask yourself why mine sweepers were generally made of wood. Magnetically activated mines are the reason. As an iron ship passes near a magnetic mine, it will to a certain degree (based on iron mass and distance) deflect, or influence the earth’s magnetic lines of force. By degaussing one’s ship properly, on can delay the onset of a ship’s influencing the local effect of the earth’s magnetic field to the mine’s magnetic field detector (magnetometer). What would detonate a mine without degaussing, may mean a miss with the degaussing. Hope this helps, Steve Jantscher PS- We see degaussers every day at the check out lanes. They’re those flat pads that say “don’t put your credit card here”. If you do, you’ll degauss it, and no ATM machine on earth will be giving you money. Generally the same principle, much smaller scale, and hopefully your wallet won’t blow up! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume