Subject: SMML22/03/99VOL492 Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 00:05:46 +1100 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: LCI 2: Re: SMS Emden 3: Book needed 4: Re: LCI diorama 5: Reference books 6: Fw: [navydestroyersailors] Re: Loss of USS Little at Guadacanal 7: Kombrig Sevastopol 8: Re: Research for S.M.S. Emden 9: Those dreaded Flo......s again.! 10: Titanic White Star Buff 11: Comment on "Victory at Sea" article in Atlantic Monthly 12: Stealth Ship Sighted 13: Ship waterline lengths needed 14: USCG Kit list 15: Victory At Sea CDs Available 16: Re: Victory at Sea CDs 17: Re: Electrical Charging 18: Re: IJN Rocket Launchers 19: Injection molded Coast Guard ships 20: Landing craft on Pacific M26 21: Landing Craft tanks and clarification -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: WEM Updates -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: ALROSS2@aol.com Subject: Re: LCI Well, at 158' and 250 tons, you probably aren't going to find LCIs on over-the-road transporters ... :-} Besides the old Lindberg and Monogram kits mentioned, The Quarterdeck (address unknown to me at the moment, but I can get it) produces an excellent 1/48 scale resin LCVP and 26' motor whaleboat. A friend of mine has both and showed them to me last year - they are impressive. Al Ross -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Cpecksark@aol.com Subject: Re: SMS Emden Suggest getting a 1/350scale Revell kit and using that as a pattern to scale up and get started on the scratchbuild .The GMM etched set would also give a lot of detail information until you can find a profile . Regards, Colin -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: CA139JOHNF@aol.com Subject: Book needed I am in need of the book from the Anatomy of the Ship Series, The Flower Class Corvette: HMS Agassiz. Found one at ABE but Amazon.com beat me to it. Does anyone know of a copy or have one I can purchase ? John Frohock USNSM http://uss-salem.org Is it Spring yet? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: SantMin@aol.com Subject: Re: LCI diorama Colin, The Revell/Monogram(?) LCI is 1/35 scale. I have a photo of one being hauled to cross the Rhine and I was thinking of doing somethind similar with it (except I was going to use a smaller truck!) I understand that they were painted OD before being shipped inland and that the navy folks wore army garb. As far as modeling water goes, I guess there are as many ways as there are modelers, and I think I have tried most of them. It seems that most modelers have their favorite way so you will have to go with "what works for you". If you could tell more about what you want to show and how much work you want to put into it, I could suggest a method that might do it for you. Cheers, Bob Santos -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: Reference books Tom If you can find them try R A Burt's British Battleships 1889-1904 and British Battleships of World War One. They'll take care of the RN big gun ships Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "Shaya Novak" Subject: Fw: [navydestroyersailors] Re: Loss of USS Little at Guadacanal >> From: Randy Schuldt To: worldwar2@onelist.com Cc: navydestroyersailors@onelist.com Subject: [navydestroyersailors] Re: Loss of USS Little at Guadacanal Tab (prpse@webtv.net) recently asked me about the USS Little (APD4). I thought I'd respond via the list, since there may be others out there who would be interested. The USS Little started out as DD79, built in 1917. It was one of the Class of 1916-17, which were referred to as "1,000-tonners", "Flush-Deckers", and "Four-Stackers". Sometime during one of her re-builds, she lost two of its boilers, two of her stacks and was converted to a high-speed transport along with her sister-ships, the Colhoun (DD85, then APD2) and the Gregory (DD82, then APD3) who also figure in this story. The conversions cut the former DD's speed from 32 to 23 knots. As APD's they were intended to land Marine raiding parties of company strength. They could accommodate up to 200 troops and carried 4 LCP-R landing craft, known as Higgins boats. On 28 Aug 1942, Little and Colhoun (that's the correct spelling) were escorting the auxiliary Kopara, who was discharging stores on Guadacanal. The trio got under way at 1415 (2:15pm civilian time) in response to an air alert. At 1512, they were attacked by a formation of 18 twin-engined Japanese bombers. As the APD's were pitifully under-gunned (4-3" 50cal dual-purpose and 5-20mm guns), they stood little chance of fighting off the planes. The Colhoun was the victim of some pretty phenomenal marksmanship for horizontal bombers attacking moving targets. Two sticks of bombs fell on or within 50 feet of the Colhoun and within two minutes she went down, taking 51 of her crew with her. The Little is next heard from on 4 Sept. as the result of a rumor that Savo Island was harboring a contingent of Japanese troops. Little and Gregory landed the 1st Raider Battalion on Savo. After discovering no Japanese on the island, the Marines were returned to Guadacanal where they landed at dusk. Instead of returning to Tulagi, Division Commander Hugh W Hadley chose to patrol off Lunga Point. The IJN had dispatched three destroyers-Yudachi, Hatsuyuki, and Murakumo to bombard the Marine positions on the 'Canal that night. At 0100, Little observed gun flashes to the east. Both APD's went to general quarters and turned to investigate. They thought that a Japanese submarine was conducting a nuisance bombardment and closed. Little's radar picked up the contact at two miles. Commander Hadley was faced with two choices-he could turn and run (a logical but distasteful decision) or, relying on surprise, try a hit-and-run attack. He chose the latter. Before the two APD's could move to the attack, a Navy Catalina happened by. Seeing the gun flashes, the patrol plane tried to help by dropping a string of flares. Unfortunately, they turned out to be only half a mile from the American ships. The Japanese destroyers spotted the two little APD's and switched their fire and spotlights to the American ships. Little began firing first, but was soon answered by the superior firepower of the Japanese destroyers (3.5" for the Americans Vs 5.5" for the Japanese). The first two Japanese salvos were short, the third over, but the fourth found its mark followed by others. The Little's skipper, Lt. Commander Lofberg, tried to beach the Little, but her rudder was jammed. There was no course left but to abandon. Before the order could be carried out, another salvo hit the bridge, killing both Lt. Commander Lofberg and Commander Hadley. Gregory had been taking her share of Japanese shells and also had to be abandoned. The Japanese destroyers then moved between the two helpless APD's and sank both ships with gunfire, killing many sailors in the water. The survivors were rescued the following morning. The Little lost 22 killed and 44 wounded while Gregory lost 11 killed and 26 wounded. Admiral Stansfield Turner praised the action of the Colhoun, the Little and the Gregory in his report: "The officers and men serving in these ships have shown great courage and have performed outstanding service. They entered this dangerous area time after time, well knowing their ships stood Little or no chance if they should be opposed by any surface or air force the enemy would send into those waters." (From Turner's report, "Loss of U.S.S. Colhoun, Gregory and Little" 13 Dec 1942) Reference: "History of United States Naval Operations in World War II, Volume V: The Struggle for Guadacanal, August 1942-February 1943", by Samuel Eliot Morison. "United States Naval Vessels: The Official United States Navy Reference Manual, 1 September 1945", edited by Samuel Loring Morison. Regards, Randy -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Bruce Buchner" Subject: Kombrig Sevastopol I just purchased the Kombrig 1/700 Sevastopol. My references for the Tsar's navy are pretty slim. Does anyone have any info on color schemes that it would have worn. The directions are pretty slim. Bruce Buchner -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Darren Scannell Subject: Re: Research for S.M.S. Emden >> I am interested in making a scratch built series of WW1 British and German light cruisers and dreadnoughts. I thought I would start with the S.M.S. Emden (inspired by Model Ship Builder #118). << Dean's Marine sells a kit of the SMS Emden in 1/96 scale suitable for R/C. Seatec sells Dean's kits in the US and the Model Dockyard has one listed on it's website. http://www.model-dockyard.com/deankit.htm There is also a kit of the HMS Skirmisher. Darren -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "LAMKEEL" Subject: Those dreaded Flo......s again.! Dear Chris, and fellow smellies. I'm sorry to add to the confusion. Yes, Harland & Wolff shipyard in Belfast did build all those Flowers, the first bulk order for 20 vessels on 19/9/39 and a second similar order 0n 8/4/40, including 6 units for the French Government. These were taken over by the R.N. whilst still under construction.(When France was occupied). But it would be wrong to think that 40 similar vessels were produced, or even two groups of 20 similar vessels. The reason why this mass produced cheap escort has so much interest (To me anyway) is the vast variation in its content. Whilst the original Smiths Dock design or set of drawings was provided to all the different shipyards engaged in this vast building programme, the general class produced a number of variants as time passed. 24 early units were selected to be fitted with steam M/S winches as Fleet Sweepers. The problem was that there were not enough steam winches being produced to supply them all, so a number of Flowers went to sea with just the wooden winch beds fitted, to be retro fitted later. Other variations occurred with providing bullet proof protection or splinter shields outboard of the 2 Pdr. and 4" guns. With the arrival of Axis influence mines early in the war degaussing cables were added. Thus units completed with the cables in cable runs fitted externally around the the hull, and prone to being damaged by heavy seas. Those units that could accept this addition, i.e building was not so far advanced, had the cable runs fitted internally. It then became a standard fitting. When it was realised that the U Boats were operating away from inshore waters, crews had to be increased from the original 40 to 60, then 90+ as additional equipment was found, produced and fitted. Armament varied too. The old breach loading 4" Mark IX Mounting was "retired" from M/S sloops built during the great war and was available from store, but not much else was. Numbers of .303" Lewis and Hotchkiss guns were available from store, and the U.S. provided .300" Savage/Lewis in some numbers under Lend-Lease, but they were in short supply as the expanding army had to be equipped at the same time. These light machine guns were of little help against modern aircraft. The 2 Pdr. (40mm) Mark VIII Mounting was authorised, but production was only just getting under way. (The Mark VIII 2 Pdr. gun has some 400 parts and is a rather complex weapon). Modern weapons were in short supply, and early units were badly wanting in anti-aircraft defence. The 0.5" Quad Vickers Machine Guns on the "M" Mark III Mounting was provided in some cases, but in general it had to be the dreaded 'stopgap', steam powered, Holman projector, or paired .303" Lewis guns. The Flower design continuously evolved due to operational learning, experience learned slowly, the hard way. Bridge design was changed during the war, there were five different layouts or designs. When radar came on the scene the Type 271 lanterns are found in various locations, to port, starboard or on the centreline. The hull plating was extended to provide additional accommodation, but there was no official design for early units, and it was added at refits, to suit. Thus the length of the fox'l deck varied by feet, in different shipyards and units. When the reworked "modified" hulls were introduced, bilge keels were increased to help reduce and slow the violent motion at sea. New equipment was coming off the production line and changes were seen in the loss of cowl ventilators, when three drum boilers were introduced. The funnel was now vertical. Earlier the number of scuttles was ordered to be reduced to keep down costs and construction time. When it was realised that crew conditions were so bad, that T.B. was a threat, additional ventilation had to be provided. Most had one mast, in front of the bridge, some had two, and later the single mast was moved aft of the bridge. Early units only had two Depth Charge Throwers (Mark II), later four were provided and later units (from late 1943) had the up market, Mark IV thrower, the same as new Sloops of the Modified Black Swan Class. By 1944 the Flower was virtually a young Frigate. New open bridge layout, radar, hedgehog, 20mm Oerlikons, (4,5 or 6). All on the same seaworthy hull, with a similar main engine, increased displacement, much increased crew, and still managing about 16 knots maximum. Others, were fitted for acoustic minesweeping, as Buttercup. Some were equipped for towing. A few, based abroad had strange armament fits, gained locally. The number of depth charges carried had increased as a result of operational requirements. It was a story of constant development, refit and modification to the basic design. I have drawn a number of H & W units (Rhododendron, Anchusa, Bryony, Genista, Buttercup) from original "As Fitted" plans. As well as units from other shipyards. It is truly a mix, and that's what makes it so much fun. (It just takes that much longer), BUT I'M GETTING THERE! (See my list of drawings in an earlier Smellies) Yours "aye". John Lambert. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: leefrancis.wilhelmsen@concrea.no Subject: Titanic White Star Buff Hi I know I've read the formula for White Star Buff somewhere, but I can't find it now. Does anyone have the formula? Best regards Lee Francis Wilhelmsen Stavanger, Norway -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: gjstein@mindspring.com Subject: Comment on "Victory at Sea" article in Atlantic Monthly(March 1999) pp 51-76. The article by David M. Kennedy (Professor of History at Stanford) is, in general, a nice standard history with very few new insights for the readership of this list. That is, no outrageous howlers. However, the article is an excellent example of the "new" approach to American history in the leading universities. My suspicions were raised in the first paragraph: "By war's end these vaulting leaps in military technology had swept all the combatants, including the United States, across older moral frontiers as well." Then followed a nice general history. However, when we get to the last page, I found myself getting quite upset at, to put it simply, the "new" history [illustrated also by CNN's History of the Cold War] approach of "moral equivalency." When I find myself reading the following from a contemporary academic, I get upset. Kennedy writes: ""The moral rules that had long stayed warriors' hands from taking up weapons of mass destruction against civilian populations had long since been violently breached -- in the Allied aerial attacks on European cities, and even more wantonly in the systematic firebombing of Japan." GIVE ME A BREAK. Where is the discussion of Nanking, Warsaw, Rotterdam, London, etc.? Poland didn't attack Germany. China didn't attack Japan. Don't get me wrong. No one would argue that war brings out the best in humankind. And, I'm not one of these fanatics who objects to putting axis decals in model kits. I build kits from all the combatants; that's just a hobby. No "moral equivalence" is intended by kits of all the combatants. Rather, I do get a bit upset with the "both sides did it, thus, both sides are equal morally" fashion of much contemporary academic scholarship. So, read the article - it's a good general overview (with nice maps) - but be aware of the author's ideological position. Sorry about the "flame" but the issue is at least as important as "degaussing." Prof. George J. Stein, Chairman Dept. of Future Conflict Studies (USAF) Air War College -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: JGordon262@aol.com Subject: Stealth Ship Sighted 3/20/99 Alameda, CA, USA The US Navy Stealth Ship "Sea Phantom" has been cruising the San Fransisco Bay Area this week as part of Operation Urban Warrior. The Sea Phantom docked this weekend behind the floating museum, USS Hornet, allowing close up inspection of its exterior. The stealth ship was roped off to visitors, but it's side entrance door was open allowing a glimpse of the interior. This oddly shaped vessel reminds me of the Air Force's F-17 Stealth Fighter jet, with flat plate siding angling upward in a pyramid fashion. The vessel is a catamaran design, with at least a meter of space between the water and the bottom of the ship. It is not very large at all, maybe 150 feet in length. It was painted a very banal shade of medium grey overall, with obvious rust, scale, paint blistering, and dirt. This led me to think that it is not coated with special radar absorbing materials on its skin. Not what I would have expected from one of the US Navy's most top secret projects. In fact, it looked like a quick studio mockup for a cheap Hollywood movie. It may have been a decoy-hmmm, ya, that's it! The Real Thing is off on a special ops mission and this one is just the PR floater? Yes, I do need a vacation. (YOU said it, not me: Shane ;->>) JG -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Evert-Jan Subject: Ship waterline lengths needed I'm constructing a speed/length diagram, using all the ships from Whitleys BB book, but half of his ships don't get a waterline length. Anyway, Scharnhorst and Alaska are the clear winners, with Scharnhorst performing slightly better, and the entire US pearl harbour fleet gets two thumbs down. I need the waterline length of the following ships to complete the diagram, (waterline length at trials): Minas Gerais Almirante Latorre Gourbet Bretagne Dunkerque Richelieu Queen Elizabeth's (plus speed, including after modification) Royal Sovereigns (plus speed, including after modification) Nelson King George V Lion Vanguard Cavour Vittorio Veneto Fuso (plus speed, only after modification) I'm also thinking of drawing a diagram with displacement, speed and power demand at trial conditions, but displacement is rarely given during trials. Perhaps I need to take the design displacement? Else I'll take Lwl^3, and not displacement. Evert-Jan Foeth -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "Bill & Kaja Michaels" Subject: USCG Kit list >> A friend of mine is looking for any injection molded Coast Guard ships for his dad (who is in his 70's) to build...He too old, ornary and generally cranky for resin (so HE says), but wants to continue to build...Can anybody tell me what they know of? The larger the scale, the better....Thanks << Glenn, Check out my listing of USCG model kit subjects at: http://www.tiac.net/users/billkaja/kitlist.htm I list boats, ships, and aircraft; in and out of production; modern and age-of-sail; static and RC. I am just the compiler of a list-- I don't have any of the kits for sale, and don't have any personal experience with a lot of them, either. There's not much currently in production for ships, I'm afraid, but a lot of the Lindberg kits are still available from old kit dealers and from on-line auctions such as Ebay. Good luck! Bill -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Marc Flake Subject: Victory At Sea CDs Available Hey SMMLers: Don't know what happened to it, but Friday night, I sent an e-mail that did two things: 1) Indicated that the Victory at Sea CDs (both volumes) are now available at www.borders.com. The price is $10.79 each and they "Ship Immediately"." 2) Provided a Mea Culpa for listing Hamerstein as a participant in the composition (I guess I've seen one too many "King and I" commercials). That's the trouble with e-mail. One doesn't tend to examine it as closely as one does the printed word. Hope this one goes through. Marc in Mansfield (Texas) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Steve Singlar Subject: Re: Victory at Sea CDs For the Victory at Sea CD's try Amazon.com. My daughter bought both for me through the web site. They also have an audio preview as well. Was in DC last week, temps in upper 70's. Happend to run into the Assoc. of Naval Aviators convention being held at the same hotel that my meeting was held. Great hand out, pics of carriers and so on. Fello from Newport News Shipbuilldin said a more detailed show is coming up about the loss and discovery of the Yorktown. He had some excellent underwater photos which he would not part with. Steve Singlar Pelham, NH -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: Dave Swindell Subject: Re: Electrical Charging >> For voltaic (or galvanic, as I learned it), sacrificial materials can be used, such as zink anode's. Especially around the propeller, the charge is highest, and the corrosion worst, so there you would find a lot of heat zink anode's (which are further down the electrical ladder than iron or steel, so corrode first). But, it is possible to have an active anodising system, where you litterally charge the hull. This is very expensive, also in tems of electrical power demand. I don't know if warships use this system, but I have seen it on fast cooled freighters. << Whilst an impressed current cathodic protection system might cost the equivalent of a small family car, this is fairly cheap when compared to the cost of a ship. They may draw a bit of power, typically a few kilowatts, but when you're generating 2-3 Megawatts, again this is fairly insignificant. The systems do work if properly set up and monitored, and they also protect the zinc anodes (belt and braces job!) to some extent, most of these are OK at our mid term refits (2 1/2 years) to last til the full drydocking at 5 years. As well as the propeller, the anodes are arranged to protect all sea chests (intakes an outlets) and thrusters. >> Normal zink anode's are gone within 2 years, and the ship needs to be docked (Expensive with capital E). Off shore platforms are usually fitted with mammoth zink anode's which can be used for 20 years. << Ships have to be drydocked at regular intervals for maintenance, underwater painting and surveys. 5 years would be a typical maximum for surveys, usually with a quick cleanup and toouch up halfway in between. If there are no anodes left, then someone cocked up with the number and size required (or they didn't stick them on well enough!) Anodes are far cheaper to fit than new props!. Dave Swindell -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: "Joćo Andrade Guerra" Subject: Re: IJN Rocket Launchers 12cm Multiple Rocket Launchers Yohan: There is an article about them in Warship Number 34 (Volume 9). As for their effectiveness the article points out their many shortcomings. I would think that they were as useless as the RN U.P.'s which used the same concept. They could even be dangerous because of flame and blast upon firing. Rockets are not very precise weapons anyway, their intended use was as barrage weapons against torpedo and dive bombers. Joao Andrade Guerra -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: Duane Fowler Subject: Injection molded Coast Guard ships Hello Glenn The only injection molded Coast Guard ships available are in 1/300 scale from Revell. They are the USCGC Eastwind, WAGB 279 (269' icebreaker) also released as the Burton Island, WAGB 88, and the USCGC Taney, WHEC 37 (327' Secretary Class Cutter) also released as the USCGC Campbell, WHEC 32. Neither kit is particularly accurate but the hull shapes are good and most of the equipment presented was actually on the ship, but just not all at the same time. Hawk Also did a 1/700 model of the Secretary class cutter but it is fairly difficult to find too. There are also a couple of models of the USCGC Eagle (1/250 from Revell Germany, 1/350 from Minicraft) and a model of a 44' motor lifeboat from Glencoe. The Burton Island/Eastwind, 1/350 Eagle, and 44' motor lifeboat are the only kits currently in production. The others may be difficult to find. I was in the Coast Guard and love building CG subjects. Unfortunately most have to be scratch built. Best regards, Duane Fowler -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: "RLOCKIE" Subject: Landing craft on Pacific M26 I suspect that the landing craft you saw was a Landing Craft, Assault (LCA). These were certainly carried on Diamond T M20/Rogers M9 combinations before the Rhine crossing and there are some photos in a Militaria (French publication) special called 'Au Coeur du Reich' ('To the Heart of the Reich' if my French is up to the task). The craft were carried on a wooden framework mounted on the trailer bed. I have some drawings of an LCA which would probably be adequate for a 1/35 model but I am not aware of any kits of it. I would be inclined to agree that an LCM would be pushing it a bit and an LCI is far too big to be carried on a tank transporter - even the small version (LCI(S)) was based on a Fairmile hull and would be a similar length while the LCI(L) is more like a ship. I am considering an LCA as a load for my Diamond T in 1/76 but it is a matter of whether I do that or the V2 rocket on one that a friend saw in the Science Museum.... Robert Lockie Cambridge UK -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: Colin Ritchie Subject: Landing Craft tanks and clarification Hi there , First, thanks for the help in locating a load for the Dragon, and secondly, a word of apology for all those I confused with my inability to correctly identify the load in the first place, OK I'll admit it, I can't tell a LCVP from a LCI, (I think I can just about get my head around a LST!). The landing craft in the picture I'm using as a basis for the diorama is similar to the old Airfix landing craft issued by thme in the 1970's, complete with a Sherman as cargo. As to its designation , sorry! Thanks for the help, and I'll be haunting the dealers in old kits in the near future. However I do have an irrational fear of Vac Forms, (something about a 32nd scale Vac Form Buccaneer I started many years ago) Colin Ritchie Hi Colin, Well if Airfix got the designation right, it was a LCM Mk.III. A good book to get in order to brush up your recogonition skills ;-ž is: D-Day Ships, The Allied invasion fleet, June 1944 by Yves Buffetaut & published by Conway. Lorna got me this book as a Valentines present back in 95. It was one of the many books that came out for the 50th Anniversary of D-Day. I would highly recommend this book for modelling all sorts of landing craft. It even has a nice photo of a RN DD on the rocks(literally) after the big storm. This book may be a bit hard to find now, but IMNSHO well worth the search. Shane 20C & raining -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Caroline Carter" Subject: WEM Updates Hi Guys I have updated my mainpage ... please check it out http://dialspace.dial.pipex.com/town/avenue/xdt22/index.htm Also I have updated the WEM Own Products overview (Caution!, 250K file) New PROFESSIONAL 700 items are listed (masters complete, casting underway, prices not confirmed on the latest stuff due to the complexicity of the casting of these tiny parts.. pix soon!). Also a coupla forthcoming FLIGHTDECK 400 items... Fulmars anyone? New 1/700 Airstrike items added to the main listings as well. http://dialspace.dial.pipex.com/town/avenue/xdt22/main.htm and Pre-owned and Clearance Books, Kits, brass etc. updated with some additions/deletions. http://dialspace.dial.pipex.com/town/avenue/xdt22/shbooks.htm and updated listings of plastics kits, resin kits, photoetched brass, videos, books etc. at http://dialspace.dial.pipex.com/town/avenue/xdt22/plist1.htm Can I go to bed now??? Yawn.... Thanks for stopping by! Cheers, Caroline White Ensign Models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume