Subject: SMML23/03/99VOL493 Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 23:55:25 +1100 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: "Unsubscribe" 2: Re: Victory at Sea soundtrack 3: Re: SMS Emden 4: Landing craft on Pacific M26 5: Re: Victory at sea article 6: Lindberg Essex needed 7: Re: Fletchers at the IPMS(USA) Nats 8: Re: Stealth Ship Sighted 9: Re: book needed 10: Fuso Book 11: Re: Iowa guns 12: Re: DeGaussing cables 13: Off topic, almost off color, but couldn't resist 14: Japanese Destroyers - Portholes in Gunhouses 15: Sevastopol Colors 16: USS Barb 17: Search for HMAS Sydney -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: USCG Models 2: International Maritime Modeling March 1999 Update 3: New 1/700 Kit & Accessories 4: Flower Corvettes 5: Kit Announcement -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: ECHopes@aol.com Subject: "Unsubscribe" Thanks for your help. I have received the information I needed. Good luck to all. Anyone back east who wants to check out a Liberty Ship before starting a model should visit the JOHN W. BROWN in Baltimore. For info. call 410 661-1550. Thanks B. Hope Chairman -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: drwells@hogpa.ho.att.com (David R Wells) Subject: Re: Victory at Sea soundtrack "Kenneth H. Goldman" wrote: >> Sorry, people, I can no longer resist: The score for Victory at Sea was composed by Richard Rogers, NOT Rogers and Hammerstein. Hammerstein was the lyricist on the team's musicals. Since there were no words to Rogers Victory at Sea music, Hammerstein would have been bored just sitting there. Robert Russel Bennett was the conductor. << I certainly agree about Hammerstein, but I think that Bennett deserves credit for more than just conducting. He also did the arranging, which in the case of the TV series, was a HUGE undertaking. Some have gone so far as to say that Rogers came up with the themes, and Bennett did everything else. Having played Bennett's and other arrangements of various Rogers works, (including different versions of Victory at Sea) I can tell you that Bennett's original arrangements are FAR superior. David R. Wells "There seems to be something wrong | David R. Wells with our bloody ships today" | AT&T Middletown, NJ Adm. D. Beatty, May 31, 1916 | Email: drwells@hogpa.ho.att.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Jon Regenor" Subject: Re: SMS Emden I purchased a copy of "Warship Profile 25" featuring the cruiser SMS Emden from G. C. Robbins Books. They have a web site at www.brunnet.net/grobbins/ and if you contact them, they may be able to find this book in their large used book section. Anyone scratch building the Emden would find it invaluable....Jon -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Mike.Dunn@dresdner-bank.com Subject: Landing craft on Pacific M26 Robert wrote :- >> I am considering an LCA as a load for my Diamond T in 1/76 but it is a matter of whether I do that or the V2 rocket on one that a friend saw in the Science Museum.. << I don't recall seeing one loaded like that......how long ago did he see the model? Mike (who's main interest is space models, hence the V2 interest) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Pieter Cornelissen Subject: Re: Victory at sea article >> War] approach of "moral equivalency." When I find myself reading the following from a contemporary academic, I get upset. Kennedy writes: ""The moral rules that had long stayed warriors' hands from taking up weapons of mass destruction against civilian populations had long since been violently breached -- in the Allied aerial attacks on European cities, and even more wantonly in the systematic firebombing of Japan." << I know I might be starting a 'flame' here, but I think you are missing the point. The early 20th century (Kennedy puts it in the 1940's but the phenomenon is a bit older an dates at least to the 1st world war) saw all great powers getting involved in mass murder of the other powers' populations for political purposes. This was always justified in terms of 'revenge' for what the other side had done, and it went totally against the normal ways in which the great powers had acted in the previous century. And when I say all great powers I do mean all. The major 'innovation' of the 2nd world war was the fact that the US got involved in this, even though its political system and ideology were at odds with this. The 'revenge for Pearl Harbor' propaganda was definetely racist and aimed at the whole of the Japanese population, as if these people were responsible for the acts of the military dicatorship which had started the war. There is of course a big moral difference between the Axis powers and the allies (bar the USSR perhaps), but I think that does not mean that these acts were justified. In the case of the bombing campaigns agains Germany and Japan (or the WW1 Western front massacres) this is all the more poignant as these campaigns were quite useless for winning the war. This 'moral degradation' of the first half of the century, and the game of MAD (holding the enemy's population at ransom so to speak) that followed is one of the fundametal unresolved moral issues of this time and age, and it is good to see that some military historians are also getting interested in the subject. Pieter Cornelissen Delft, the Netherlands Who lived on the possible site of a 'winnable nuclear war' (to quote a USAF general) for twenty years and has no desire to repeat this. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "Michael Smith" Subject: Lindberg Essex needed I have posted this on the message board, but if anyone knows of a Lindberg Essex kit for sale, please let me know. I need it for a project. (Yes, I know I'm slumming purchasing it - I have my reasons!) In addition, if anyone knows of any articles or suggestions on the kit or for accurrizing the kit for a short hull Essex, please let me know - otherwise I'll just work from Larry Gertner's excellent article on the Hasegawa kit, and hope I get the scale right. What I'm really wanting to do is accurize the Revell modernized Essex kit and display it side by side with an accurrized Lindberg kit (as far as possible) to show the modifications in the same scale. I remember as a kid I did an el cheapo SBC 27 conversion on the Lindberg kit by swapping islands out with the Revell kit, and I thought then that the scales were identical (was I right?). I wasn't aware then of the hull blistering and other modifications. Thanks in advance for any help, Michael Smith -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Rick Heinbaugh Subject: Re: Fletchers at the IPMS(USA) Nats Working on FRAM USS Nicholas. Next: Does anybody know of reference material on DASH experimental ship USS Hazelwood? I have two photos - Raven's "Fletcher-Class Destroyers", p54, and "Destroyers - 60 Years" , p138. Any additional ideas greatly appreciated. Rick Seattle, WA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: SeaPhoto@aol.com Subject: Re: Stealth Ship Sighted JGordon262@aol.com wrote: >> 3/20/99 Alameda, CA, USA The US Navy Stealth Ship "Sea Phantom" has been cruising the San Fransisco Bay Area this week as part of Operation Urban Warrior. The Sea Phantom docked this weekend behind the floating museum, USS Hornet, allowing close up inspection of its exterior. << Actually, the name of the ship is the Sea Shadow. Builti in Redwood City, CA by Lockheed during the mid 1980's. Constuction took 27 months, and she was built inside HMB-1, the submersible mining barge associated with the Glomar Explorer. You are right, there were some excellent vantage points to see her at Alameda - the pier, the fantail of the Hornet, and from the USS Pearl Harbor, which was moored at the next pier. Some specifications: Length 164 feet Beam 68 feet Clearence 8 feet Speed 14 knots max (The crew told me it took 2 days to go from San Diego to San Francisco. She runs off two 800 hp electric motors, with diesel generators. The motors are mounted in each pontoon. An interesting detail is the lack of a rudder; aft stabilizers take over that function. Forward stablizers are used for seakeeping only. Sea Shadow has a 26 X 30' cargo area, which can hold about 50 tons of supplies, equipment or people. It is air conditioned. I was out on the Golden Gate Bridge today, snapping pictures of some of the ships leaving port after the Urban Warrior exercise, and saw the Sea Shadow depart, along with another technology demonstrator, the SLICE. Listening to the harbor communications on my scanner, I found it interesting that they referred to Sea Shadow as "Naval Vessel Bravo" - surface ships are almost always identified by their proper names over the radio, while submarines generally are not, at least in the San Francisco area. Kurt Greiner SeaPhoto Maritime Photography -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Dave Judy Subject: Re: book needed John, I have that book, If you can not find one for sale, I will be glad to lend mine to you! Dave Judy -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Torgeson Roger A KPWA" Subject: Fuso Book When I received my copy of the Anatomy of the Ship, Battleship Fuso I thought I had two dust jackets on the book. When I went to remove what I thought was the extra one, I saw a enlarged drawing of the April 1941 1/500 scale print. This enlargement (will try to figure out its scale tonight) is almost the full length of the dust cover laid out flat. Nice surprise. Roger -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Jon Parshall Subject: Re: Iowa guns In answer to questions regarding naval ordnance: >> Okay, firstly if you would like to post this question or answer or some form of it on SMML for all of us very interested novice laypeople please feel free. << I am doing so, assuming Mssr. SMML will accept this post. >> So, here goes the question: How does calibre work for naval guns, that is why was the popular British 15" gun for example a 42 cal weapon while the German 15" a 47 cal weapon with a 300lbs. or so lighter shell? The reason I ask this is because while attempting to research naval gun theory, several sources have stated that the guns on the Iowa class were a 50cal weapon while the ones on the Washington and South Dakota which were the identical gun were 45cal. << "Caliber" in this sense (as opposed to the meaning of "caliber" when used in personal firearms) is a rough quantification of the *length* of the barrel, measured in increments equalt to the bore diameter of the gun. So a 16"/45 caliber weapon refers to a gun which is roughly 16" x 45 = 720 inches in length (or thereabouts). And a 16"/50 weapon would be an additional 80 inches long. >> Apperently, this 16" gun was a brand new design which saved 500 or so pounds over any other design and was capable of using a 2700lbs. shell with absolutly tremendous range and fire power (at least pound for pound). So, if there was no advantage in weight of shell, but a farther range with a higher velocity) at the expense of much less accurate fire due to increased muzzle velocities (not to mention more wear and tear), << This is a misconception. Higher velocity generally equates to *greater* accuracy, a trend which is continued today in all types of ordnance which seek to penetrate armor, particularly in the hyper-velocity rounds used by most tanks. Higher velocity guns only lead to inaccuracy if you can't *control* your velocity consistently. For instance, if your shell manufacturing techniques are lousy, and you're getting shells with a weight that is plus/minus 2% of spec (which the Italians did all the time in ther 15" shells), then that is going to foul things up. But if you have good control over your shells and fire control equipment, then higher velocity is generally a good thing (except for wear and tear, of course). >> which I do not see how radar would have overcome, why was this version of the weapon chosen? Am I in err anywhere here? Was this weapon the only one that was ready in time for this class, or was some new technology applied to it that has been over looked? << "Fire power", in the strictest sense, is a meaningless term here. What we're really interested in looking at is the ballistic properties of the gun and the shell, i.e., * How well does it fly to the target * How well does it penetrate armor after it hits * What level of damage does it produce after the penetration has occurred When measured on these criteria, the 16"/50 is a superior weapon in a number of respects to the 16"/45. Since it is a longer-barreled weapon, it shoots its shell at higher speed and with greater accuracy. By getting to the target faster, the target has less of an opportunity to manuever out from underneath your fire-control solution (flight times for heavy ordnance can be over a minute at longer range, so shaving ten seconds off the arrival time can be important). It also has a longer maximum range than the 16"/45, by about 9,000 yards. That can be important if you are trying to tangle with an opponent like Yamato. Against a vertical plate, the higher velocity translates to higher armor penetration capability. The only instance in which the 16"/50 is inferior to the 16"/45 is at very long range against horizontal armor. In those range areas, the fact that the 16"/45 is required to lob its shell in a higher arc out to a given range means that it falls from a greater height, and has better penetration against deck armor. However, you can get around that with the 16"/50 as well, by simply reducing the number of powder bags from 4 to 3, thereby reducing the muzzle velocity, which lets you loft the shells higher, leading to the same effect. And the USN worked out fire-control tables using reduced charges for this weapon for exactly that reason. Bottom line; the 16"/50 is a superior weapon in every respect. >> Also, from one weapons chart I was looking at, except in all out range the 45ccal verion was a superior weapon to any of its contemporaries. << Actually, in terms of raw armor penetration, the main weapons of Bismarck, Richelieu (best 15" gun out there), Vittorio Veneto, and certainly Yamato are better, Yamato *dramatically* so. The Japanese 18.1" was a brute-force design, and not particularly good for its size, but it's hard to argue with a 3200+ lb. shell, ya know? >> This seems to be a very specific topic which does not get addressed in very much detail anywhereIhave seen (obviously or I would not be asking), but an help at all would be greatly appreciated. Thanking you very much; Mark A << Hope that helps. Feel free to see my site: http://www.skypoint.com/members/jbp/kaigun.htm particularly the guns and armor page, and the battleship comparison page, for more information. I have a number of useful tools there (courtesy of Nathan Okun) for doing things like calculating armor penetration. I also have built a spreadsheet for doing quick and dirty calculations of terminal velocity and impact angle for most of the major pieces of heavy ordnance. Plug in a range value and it cranks out the terminal data, which can then be fed in Nathan's gizmo to produce a value for face-hardened armor plate penetrated. Regards, Jon -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Sean D. Hert" Subject: Re: DeGaussing cables >> Experts in this particular field assured us that with the vast amount of lead shielding around the MRI the amount of Gauss emanating from within was barely measurable. Guess we need to add deGaussing cables around many hospitals. << There are ways of shielding against magnetic fields- such as de-gaussing and such; but I don't believe LEAD is one of them. Magnetic fields are an effect, not particles, and as such completely ignore lead. Maybe those experts need to touch up on their physics- or maybe I do..... Sean D. Hert Webmeister, MBG Site: http://www.netwalk.com/~popev/bg/ Ringmaster, Big Gun R/C Warship Combat Ring "The Spartans do not ask the number of the enemy, only where they are." -Agix of Sparta -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Growlrr@aol.com Subject: Off topic, almost off color, but couldn't resist This was sent to me yesterday...sorry, couldn't resist sharing it... Glenn It seems that a young couple had just gotton married and spent their wedding night with the young mans parents. In the morning the mother got up and prepared a lovely breakfast, went to the bottom of the stairs and called for them to come down for breakfast. After a long wait the family ate without the newlyweds. The mother said "I wonder why they never came down to eat." The groomes young brother said "Mommy, I think..." "Oh shut up I don't want to hear what you think!" said the mother, not wanting to hear any inappropriate comments from the younger brother. At lunch time the mother again prepared a wonderful meal and again called the young couple to eat. After another long wait the family proceeded to eat, and after the meal was completed the mother once again said "I wonder why they never came down to eat?" Once again the younger brother started to speak, but was interrupted by the mother. At dinner time once again the mother cooked a very elaborate meal, had the table set perfect and called the newlyweds to join the family for dinner. After another long wait the mother once again questioned why they had not come downstairs all day. The young lad once again said "Mommy I think..." "Well what is it that you think?" asked the mother rather irritated. "I think that when my big brother came down to get the vaseline last night, he got my model plane glue instead." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Sanartjam@aol.com Subject: Japanese Destroyers - Portholes in Gunhouses Hello SMML, I was thinking about building some Japanese destroyer kits (Akizuki and Kagero classes) someday, and have noticed that the twin 5-in and 3.9-in gunhouses (or turrets, whatever) seem to have portholes (scuttles to some of us). If those were portholes, did they ever have steel covers put over them to keep splinters out? In other words, in building a model of one of those ships, do you drill holes in the gunhouses to simulate portholes or can you glue disks on where the portholes could have been located to simulate steel covers? Photos of Mike Czibovi's incredible 1/200 Shiranui (or was it a Kagero?) seem to have the latter, but I'm not sure. Thanks, Art Nicholson -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Marc Flake Subject: Sevastopol Colors Russian Warships appear to have worn two types of liveries. One was a black hull, white superstructure and buff funnels. The other was white overall with buff funnels. In each case, the funnel tops were black. My guess is tht white was worn on tropical duties, the black hulls in Baltic, Black Sea assignments. In my Conways 1860-1906, on page 181, there's a picture of Sevastopol just prior to the Russo-Japanese War in overall white with buff/black funnels. For my Russian predreadnoughts I use Humbrol Eighth Army Desert Yellow (or #94, Brown Yellow under the new system). Marc in Mansfield (Texas) Love those pre-dreadnoughts -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "Pletscher-Lenz-Schneider" Subject: USS Barb In May 1945, USS BARB SS 220 underwent a yard overhaul which included the installation of 5-inch rocket launchers. On the following patrol, her 12th, she bombarded Japanese shore targets with rockets in July 1945. This was the first operation of rockets in submarine warfare. Can anyone add more information on this event. Espacially, I would like to know how many rocket launchers were installed (according to Alden, The Fleet Submarine in the US Navy, it could have been only one), and where they were locataed. I also would like to know what kind of rocket launcher was used. Falk Pletscher -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: Mark Krywienko Subject: Search for HMAS Sydney Fellow SMML's The Australian Government has recommended that they fund a search for the wrecks of the 'HMAS Sydney' and the German Raider 'Kormorant' off the West Australian Coast. The following URL will explain a little more. http://www.smh.com.au/news/9903/23/national/national4.html Regards, Mark Krywienko (Sydney Australia) About time too. Here's hoping they can get Ballard to do the search. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Shaya Novak" Subject: USCG Models The Naval Base carries a few CG models in the balsa "bread and butter" stack and build method. Name Scale Price 30' Rescue Boat 1/4 39.95 36' Motor Life Boat 1/4 39.95 38' Picket Boat 1/4 39.95 CG Mohawk Class 1/16 59.95 CG Casco Class 1/32 39.95 USS Hoga 3/32 39.95 To see the USS Hoga goto: www.modelshipbuilding.com the Balsa Tug section. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Felix Bustelo Subject: International Maritime Modeling March 1999 Update Hello SMMLers, I am pleased to announce the March 1999 update to IMM. http://members.tripod.com/~Febus65/imm.htm This month's update is a rather major one. Besides lots of new reviews and articles, I did a lot of house cleaning to better organize the site, improve access time, and hopefully make navigating my site more enjoyable. I wish to thank the many contributers to this month's update. Some are continuing contributers and some are new ones (including some SMMLers). Without you this page could not be possible. The March Update includes: Photos of Atle Ellefson's HMS Iron Duke, Loren Perry's USS Arizona in both 1934 and 1941 fits, and Jim Stuht's Shtorm, a WW2 Russian torpedo boat in the Photo Gallery. Quick Kit Reviews of the Airfix 1/600 France, Heller 1/400 Marceau, Duquesne and Maillé-Brézé, Frog/Novo HMS Exeter, Revell Germany HMS Royal Sovereign, JSC 1/250 SMS Goeben, Lee 1/600 USS New Jersey and Civil War Ironclads Available! CSS Tennessee. Photoetch Review of Tom's Modelworks 1/225 USS Oregon set. Book Review of the Warship Perspectives Atlanta Class Cruisers in World War 2. Updated the Photoetch List to include Nautilus Model's line of resin upgrades and PE sets and updated White Ensign Model's product offerings. Maritime History Articles on Royal Canadian Navy Aircraft Carriers in WW2 and an anecdotal account of how a sandlot wargame among kids played a role in a key event in United States History. An article with tips for the Travelling Modeler in the Articles page. Update of the Kit List page to include kits by Civil War Ironclads Available!, Frog and Hawk. Update of the Links page. Please stop by for a visit. Thanks Felix Bustelo Webmaster - International Maritime Modeling http://members.tripod.com/~Febus65/imm.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Bill Gruner Subject: New 1/700 Kit & Accessories We now have in stock the all new Clipper Models (from Japan) resin 1/700 scale Flower class Corvette, early Canadian version. This superb model was patterned by K. Murakami, who made the masters for the HiMold 1/700 Richelieu, Akagi & Nagato. $32.00 Also have the new brass and aluminum gun barrels by Clipper for 1/700 models (also could be used for various secondary barrels for larger scales)..... USN 16" (in both 40 & 50 cals.), and Japanese WW 2 20cm, 15.5cm, 14/15cm, and 12.7cm...yep, that's right, 12.7cm(about 5") in MACHINED brass.... you won't believe the quality. We should have the big IJN barrels (18", 16" 14") by the end of the month. Just got in re-stock on the Regia Marina Vittorio Venetos, Folgores, and CL Garibaldis. Also re-stock on the Samek 1/700 Konigsberg & Nurnberg...Guams should be here in 2 weeks. Thanks, Bill Gruner Pacific Front Hobbies 425-821-2564 fax 425-821-9034 http://www.pacificfront.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: WRPRESSINC@aol.com Subject: Flower Corvettes The exact date is uncertain but at some point during the summer, Flower Corvettes by John Lambert will be published, containing MANY sets of fully detailed general arrangement drawings. There will also be several pages devoted to camouflage designs, and ----------- for the first time a section given over to funnel bands, markings and emblems, including items like polar bears, witches and wildflowers. The modelmakers will love it. The book will contain more information on Flower Corvettes than has ever been put between two covers. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: James Corley Subject: Kit Announcement S-05 (FULL KIT) USS NAUTILUS 1/350 $50.00 ($55.00 w/S&H) the “Makin Island Raider” The NAUTILUS is our flagship, of course, and will be the first full kit we offer. The model is currently in production and will be ready to sell by Memorial Day. The kit is 1/350 scale and is 12.7” long! This was the largest submarine of its day and was almost as large as a FLETCHER class destroyer. The kit comes with a single piece hull, gun deck/fairwater and 21 other parts. The photoetch fret includes approximately 30 other parts for the railings, prop guards and even gun clamps. The kit includes two 6”/53 deck guns which made this class the “submarine cruiser”. The kit represents the NAUTILUS as she entered World War Two in April 1942 following a 9-month refit at Mare Island and includes the SD and SJ radar sets and the external torpedo tubes. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume