Subject: SMML26/03/99VOL496 Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 23:53:31 +1100 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Moral Equivalency 2: Skywave Sumner and Gearing problems? 3: USS Washington 1944-45 4: Re: Gambier Bay book 5: Re: Pierside models 6: Re: Stealth doesn't mean invisable 7: Oh happy day! 8: Stealthy? Nah! 9: Re: Ship Plan Websites 10: Re: IPMS FLETCHERs 11: Stealth and James Bond 12: ITALIAN OCEAN LINERS OF THE PAST 13: Book Bargain? 14: Stealth ships 15: For Modelers ONLY - take morality elsewhere 16: Re: Fletchers at the IPMS(USA) Nats 17: Tugs, Railroads, etc. 18: Anti-Skid mats 19: Flower Class Corvettes/new propulsion 20: To rig or not to rig 21: History/guilt/blame 22: Re: Great White Fleet 23: Re: Sea Shadow & SLICE -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: New Auction Site Open 2: 1/700 Warspite update -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: MDDoremus@aol.com Subject: Re: Moral Equivalency I'm no great moralist, but I want to get my 2 cents worth in. 1) Hoselton's Iron Rule of History: The winners write the history books. 2) I think that the start of the "modern warfare" decried in these posts was actually during the American Civil War. Sherman's March to the sea was similar to the Allied bombing campaigns in that it was intended to destroy the production capability of the South to end the war at the "front lines". This was probably the first time in warfare that an enemy's productive capability was destroyed before the enemy was beaten in battle. 3) While the resolve of NATO helped end the cold war. I doubt that Europe (at least west of the East German border) would be the main landing zone for ICBMs. NATO's main job was to die loudly on the ground while America got ready, as if we really would have any time for that. I've seen targeting studies that suggested a place as relatively unimportant as Ft. Worth, TX, had somewhere between 13 and 37 warheads assigned to it. Even at Hiroshima level yields this would have left a large burned spot. At modern yields probably just a glowing crater would have remained. The same study predicted similar targeting for Leningrad, probably with similar results. Any General, USAF or otherwise, who thought a nuclear war was winnable must have had a nice place to hide away in while everyone else died. MAD was probably the only thing that kept any sanity at the nuclear table. The USSR had lost millions of people in WW II. Maybe that was no big deal to Stalin, after all of his purges, but it has to hurt a country's productive capacity at some point. Other Soviet leaders must have understood this and it slowed their reach for the button. Hidden behind our moat, America had survived both WWI and WWII relatively unscathed. While we may not have withstood the death and destruction Europe and Japan endured, we didn't want that to happen here. The missiles had rendered the moat useless, and we had to understand if we attacked, we would die too. No great moral conclusions here, but when you're dead does it matter how you died? Mark -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "FERNANDO, YOHAN" Subject: Skywave Sumner and Gearing problems? Hello! On many occassions I've heard people saying how Skywave really 'screwed up' with the shape of the hulls for their 1/700 Sumner and Gearing kits. Just yesterday in the latest copy of Plastic Ship Modeler, I again came across a reference to this in the review for the Skywave Liberty ship kits. The review mentioned the incorrect sheer line of the deck on the Liberties which is (painfully) obvious to me. Instead of a single continuous curve, it is more like many straight sections at slightly different angles. Is this supposedly the same problem with the Sumner and Gearings? If so, I took a look at my Sumner and didn't see anything wrong in that aspect. So where's the 'screw up' on these infamous kits? Yohan Fernando -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "FERNANDO, YOHAN" Subject: USS Washington 1944-45 Hello, I built the Aoshima USS Washington a long long time ago and never really got the paint job done correctly (both in color and design). So, I've decided to pull her off the display shelf, strip off all the guns and deck mountings and do a major overhaul to at least get the paint job done correctly. The model looks as if it portrays the ship during 1944-45 with all the Oerlikons scattered all over the place. Does anyone know the correct camoflage measure she wore during this time? Thanks alot. Yohan Fernando -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Gambier Bay book >> Does anyone know where I can find Anatomy of a ship series: The Aircraft Carrier Gambier Bay Any leads would be real helpful, << If you can find two, I'll take one as well. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Pierside models Pacific front Hobbies has final closeout prices on the Jim Shirley pierside, docks or whatever they call them. Jim Shirley is no longer producing ship kits. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Stealth doesn't mean invisable Stealth does not make an aircraft or ship invisible to radar. It renders their signature harder to see at great distances. The closer the object gets the more visible it becomes. The trick is to get close enough to the target so it would be too late to prevent the a/c from dropping bombs or whatever. They can be seen, but quickly disappear when departing. I have heard a number of stealth pilots attribute the success of the F-117 to design, radar absorbent materials and coatings and tactics by the pilot. A stealth ship? No way. At sea, where there is no ground clutter to obscure the radar screen makes ships show up at extreme range. Stealth design requires the enemy vessel to be much closer to pick it up on radar. It will also need the three things I mentioned earlier, design, coatings and tactics. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Doremus, Mark" Subject: Oh happy day! Got home last night to find the latest issues of Finescale Modeler and National Geographic waiting for me. Ok, so I have a low threshold of excitement. Nat Geo has the story on finding the Yorktown and the Battle of Midway. No new history here, but some eyewitness accounts, both Japanese and American. One from the A/C commander who launched one of the torpedoes into Yorktown's side. Another from the gunner on the sole surviving TBM launched from Midway. Great read, great photos of Yorktown on the bottom, get it if you can. Finescale has the usual good stuff, but in their new kit survey they mention Wasp class LHA's and Brooklyn class CL's as popular subjects for new ship kits. Hurray! now if the kit mfg.'s listen. Mark -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Mike.Dunn@dresdner-bank.com Subject: Stealthy? Nah! Colin wrote : >> Oh BTW anybody see, "tomorrow Never Dies", didn't the baddies ship look a LOT like the Sea Shadow!, and it took James Bond to make her visible to Radar.. << Ah, that'll be all the metal plates and bolts he has, from being shot, eaten by sharks, blown up, etc. The UK's own bionic man! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: Ship Plan Websites I'm not aware of any sites where plans can be downloaded, either. But if he's into sailing vessels, he ought to be checking in with the Seaways-Shipmodeler List, which is mostly made up of builders of "ragbags." Sorry, I'm on the road so I don't have the list address/subscription info at hand. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: IPMS FLETCHERs Mike: No restrictions at all; if it's ready, it's welcome. As far as having someone take it for you, let the list know where you are so we can see if there's someone close who can help. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "efoeth" Subject: Stealth and James Bond I think Stealth is more for disguising the ships signature than completely hiding it. It remembers me of a small tour I got on the roof of the 23 story high departement of Electrical Engineering of the University of Delft. The radar mounted there could determine the shape and location of sandbanks beneath the waves along a portion of the dutch coastline, and could track small flocks of birds. They said that the stealth fighter was hardly stealthy at all, and could be spotted. Has anyone seen the Swedish Visby project? That's a nice ship, designed to operate in brown water, and has many more "stealthy" characteristics, like reduction of everything you can think of, except cost, of course. The most interesting for me is cavitation reduction, but it is only a part of the problem. But that James Bond vessel hardly looked stealthy at all, with that "smooth" inside of the ship between the hulls, and those nice curved structures on top of it. I mean, by painting a wavepiercer black, you don't achieve stealth. It's like narrowing down the beam of your flashlight to get a laser. I found it a bit weird that neither British or Chinese fleet were able to track to ship at 40 knots, as the propulsor makes plenty heap noise at that speed, and the combined British/Chinese fleet should be able to pick that up, especially if the "stealth" ship was directly between them and all sensors were trained in that direction. I forgot if the ship was waterjet or propellor powered. Either way, it makes a lot of sound. Also pretty lousy gunning by that destroyer. We could do better than that in WWII. And why does James Bond have to wreck each and every scene he walkes into? Evert-jan Foeth -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Frulio, Ralph" Subject: ITALIAN OCEAN LINERS OF THE PAST Sir(S) I hope I've reached the gold mine that I was looking for. I'm looking for scale models of the Italian Ocean liners "Andrea Doria" or "Cristoforo Colombo". Either fully assembled or in plastic model kits (Prefferred). I was also made aware that they might exist as "paper models"...I've been searching for many years prior to the advent of the internet. This means a great deal to me ..since I came to this country(I'd assume Ralph means the US: Shane) on the "Colombo" Pls help..........thank you Hi Ralph, Look up International Maritime Modelling at: http://members.tripod.com/~Febus65/imm.htm This site should be able to help you out. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "Leonard, Michael W" Subject: Book Bargain? The latest E R Hamilton supplement included this description: Submarines, Escorts, and Coastal Forces, Vol. 2 - The Design and Construction of British Warships, 1939-1945. Ed. by D K Brown Extensive coverage of the principal achievements of each design, together with detailed line drawings. Covers submarines, corvettes and frigates, fleet minesweepers, and motor torpedo boats. Well illus., line drawings. 158 pages. Naval Institute. Pub. at $45.00 Hamilton is selling this for $14.95 plus $3 shipping (US). Can anybody recommend this one? Address is Edward R Hamilton, Falls Village, CT 06031-5000 Mike L Alexandria, VA USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "F Tholander" Subject: Stealth ships Having read all on comments on the Se shadow I might just add that Kockums are currently building on coastal corvettes for The Royal Swedish Navy. The class, known as Visby-class, are approx 72m loa and designed from keel up as a stealth design. It is also designed entirely out of kevlar and carbon. Designed speed is in the 35 kts range and among others the ship will feature integrated radars as well as a gun with a barrel that's retracted into the gun mount when not in use. For those of you who are interested you can learn more on the address below: http://www.karlskronavarvet.se/ Greetings Fredrik Tholander Gothenburg Sweden -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: DaveRiley1@aol.com Subject: For Modelers ONLY - take morality elsewhere I agree completely with Bill Gruner that this modeling forum is NOT the place to discuss the philosophy or morality of WW2. Here we talk modeling, not politics. Dave Riley Portsmouth, Rhode Island - USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Steve Singlar Subject: Re: Fletchers at the IPMS(USA) Nats >> Working on FRAM USS Nicholas. Next: Does anybody know of reference material on DASH experimental ship USS Hazelwood? I have two photos - Raven's "Fletcher-Class Destroyers", p54, and "Destroyers - 60 Years", p138. << Rick, I was a DASH tech aboard the Hugh Purvis (DD-709) and the Garcia (DE-1040). If I can find any info in my old stuff I'll pass it along. I can tell you that only a handful of Fletchers (3 or 4) were FRAM'd to DASH hangers. The issues were their age, the heavy steaming most did in WWII, and money. The decision was made to go with the Sumners and Gearings which had more life left in them and also had longer sea legs. The Nicholas had early drones with the short tails on them. The later version was nothing more than an engine, fuel tanks and rotar blades. The Flecther's with DASH had winching in the deck, The drone would hover above the deck. Some poor white hat (usually the junior guy) got to scurry out under the drone, attach the hook to the drone. Then the flight officer would slowly land the drone as it was winched in. The Fletchers rolled heavily with the extra topside weight and they had a hard time landing the drones. Saw the films in DASH school, it wasn't pretty. The New Jersey used the drones in Viet Nam as "Snoopy drones". They would fly out with a camera and snoop on Charlie. We sent them one of ours when they lost one. Of the 700 drones built, over 400 were crash victims. We lost one from the Garcia in the Carribbean in 1970. Steve Singlar Pelham NH -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: Robert Weilacher Subject: Tugs, Railroads, etc. I was interested to hear of 1/700 railroad cars, as I will (one day) build a 1/700 diorama. What is available specifically and from whom ? As far as fleet tugs, barges, and other small "harbor scene non-combatants", what were they painted (circa 1944)? Perhaps Haze gray with blue decks, of perhaps natural teak color ? Rob Hi Rob, The 1/700 railway stock is avaiable from WEM at the following URL: http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: Duane Fowler Subject: Anti-Skid mats I was thinking of doing antiskid mat decals for Fletcher class destroyers. If they were to become available, would anyone be interested in them? I am planning on doing both 1/350 and 1/700 scales for the Tamiya kits. Regards, Duane Fowler -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: Vimieraa@aol.com Subject: Flower Class Corvettes/new propulsion I hear all this talk about making models of Fletcher destroyers for the US Nationals in July, when what we really need is a slew of models of Flower corvettes. There are kits available and the number of possible variations are almost endless, and anyway they look far superior to the former. I was interested to read the notes 0n the F117 by Colin Ritchie. I have been hearing that the B2 in addition to using the conventional action reaction thrust system uses something commonly named Electo-Gravitics with the field effect deployed along the leading edge of the wing. Is it at all possible that the Navy is also playing around with this form of propulsion? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Cadman@kc.net Subject: To rig or not to rig To rig or not to rig, that is the question. Ok I have just completed adding Photo Etched details to my 1/700 Tamiya Fletcher. It was my first complete ship to have PE added. I started to do my Classic Warship's USS Helena, but thought it best to get a little experience on some less valuable kits. While its not contest quality by any means I'm tickled to death with the results. I want to say it was fun, but it wasn't until near the end, as I could start to see the results of a lot of work. Now I'm ready to tackle another, but before I do I'm considering adding rigging to this ship. Is it worth it to go to this extra level of frustration? What are the drawbacks to rigging a ship. Is cleaning or handling them a problem? Am I just ruining my eyes and adding countless hours to the completion of my kits? I guess I already know the answer to my own question, but what do some of you Ship Modeler's think. Timothy mailto:Cadman@kc.net http://www.kc.net/~cadman/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: "russell/joyce powell" Subject: History/guilt/blame Hello fellow enthusiasts, What we have here is an attempt to communicate. I'm speaking of recent letters regarding the apportioning of morality, or lack there of, to the various parties in various wars..... throughout history. Say what? I love this stuff. History is my passion, specially WW1, and WW11. I'm fairly knowledgeable. I have strong opinions on most of the subjects raised thus far. I've spent about a third of my life living in "AXIS" countries. I wouldn't mind getting embroiled in this debate, however... Folks, this is not the forum for such heady stuff. This site is about what? If subscribers begin to take up this space with polemics about morality we are done for. An opinion of an historical article as revisionist, skewed, etc., can certainly have its place in a forum such as this: Ships, naval affairs and the like very often are of a historical nature. But lets try to limit it to that. Anyboody built any models lately? And how about that Bomber Harris? What a cad! Hang in there, Russell Powell -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: RCClem@aol.com Subject: Re: Great White Fleet In response to the question of which ships were in the Great White Fleet that went around the world, I pulled out my trusty copy of "American Steel Navy" by John Alden. It left Hampton Roads on December 16, 1907. There were 16 battleships (BBs 5 through 22): Connecticut, Kansas, Louisiana, Vermont, Georgia, New Jersey, Rhode Island, Virginia, Maine, Minnesota, Missouri, Ohio, Alabama, Illinois, Kearsarge, Kentucky. Six destroyers went along part way with their tender. Also some supply and repair ships. They consumed 430,00 tons of coal. The Alabama and Maine were replaced by the Nebraska and Wisconsin at San Francisco. So 18 BBs participated in some way. They each mounted 4 main guns, either 13" or 12".T They ranged in size from 375 feet/11,540 tons to 456 feet/16,000 tons. BBs that did not go: Indiana BB1, Massachusetts BB2 and Oregon BB3. They were older coastal type designs. They returned to Hampton Roads on February 22, 1909. BBs Mississippi, Idaho and New Hampshire (BBs 23, 24, 25 ) were commisioned after the fleet started out. They were all pre-Dreadnoughts, and so were made obsolete during this voyage by that ship's completion in 1907. I used to have a Web page address until my computer crashed. I am still re-populating my "Favorites" list. Roger Clemens -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: "Your Name" Subject: Re: Sea Shadow & SLICE >> The Stealth Sea Shadow is actually considered a S.W.A.T.H. (Small Waterplane Area Twin Hull). Its buoyancy is provided primarily by the pontoons located under the water surface. This makes the ship very stable in high sea states. << This type of vessel, also known as a semi-submersible, has very low roll and pitch responses but a large heave response. They've been used a lot for offshore drilling, crane platforms, and emergency services (fire fighting). In the commercial variant, two hulls have a number of vertical columns upon which a large expansive deck is mounted. When underway or being towed, the ballast tanks are emptied so the hulls break the surface. Once on site, the ballast tanks are flooded to fully submerge the hulls, leaving only the columns breaking the surface. David Lombard Rossmoor, Orange County, CA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Tony Suess" Subject: New Auction Site Open The Modelers Boatyard has just opened its Ship Modelers Yard Sale auction site. No fees, no adverts. Offered as a Public Service to the Ship Modeling Community. Tony The Modelers Boatyard The Internet's Largest, Most Complete Ship Modelers Resource http://www.modelersboatyard.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Caroline Carter" Subject: 1/700 Warspite update I have updated the Warspite pages with historical info and the etched brass set together with a listing of all the parts found on this etched brass fret .. also on the main page, I have listed, on the right hand size, a series of links to specific features on many of our kits.. please check it out. We are anticipating that the next "Big" 1/700 release will be HMS Renown in 1/700. Stay tuned! Regards Caroline White Ensign Models http://whiteensignmodels.simplenet.com/warspite/warspite.htm http://dialspace.dial.pipex.com/town/avenue/xdt22/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume