Subject: SMML04/04/99VOL505 Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 00:08:58 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: P-40s and casting 2: Re: Perry Class Frigates 3: SM/SP Radars in 1:350 4: Re: P-40's 5: Re: P-40s aboard RANGER 6: Re: P-40s/RANGER 7: Re: LEX Painting Qs 8: Re: LST Deck Colors 9: Re: Origional post 10: Re: USS Lexington painting questions 11: Re: Old kit question - Midway Carriers 12: Re: fwd 13: USS Enterprise (CVN-65) hangar - part one in an occasionl series. 14: Re: P-40s on Ranger & others 15: Tall Ships mock battles 16: Re: Perry class frigates. 17: Re: Perry class frigates 18: Regarding USS Alaska plans accuracy 19: USS Yorktown 20: Re: LEXINGTON DECK COLORS AND MARKINGS 21: USS Ranger P-40s and Operation Torch 22: New subscriber 23: attaching pe parts to resin kit 24: NEED JSP ADDRESS 25: CVN-65 hangar dimensions 26: Re: Old kit question - Midway Carriers 27: Re: Old kit question - Midway Carriers -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Iron Shipwrights next release 2: Nautilus Models 1/480 YORKTOWN Update Sets -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Bradford Chaucer Subject: Re: P-40s and casting >> I'm working on building the Corsair Armada USS Ranger to portray her with a deckload of USAAF P40 fighters that were flown off her decks to bases in North Africa in early 1943. Does anyone know how these planes would have been painted at this time? There is a photo in Freidman's US Carriers and they look as if they would be olive green, but I'm not sure. << Most likely Olive on upper surfaces and fuselage sides, medium grey underneath, Blue and white "star and Bars" insignia on wings and fuselage, unit markings on tail, perhaps unit decorations on tail and nose/spinner. I'm sure hat any of the aircraft publication series have a P40 book. >> I understand that there is some kind of online resource for casting. I`m referring to RTV molds and either resin or white metal casting. Is there a list, site, or FAQ that you know of? << Yes, ONELIST is a website that hosts free mailing lists; they must have over a thousand now. One of the lists is called "Casting" and it covers all aspects of casting and mold making, primarily for model making (as opposed to foundry work) including resin. You can subscribe at his page: http://www.onelist.com/viewarchive.cgi?listname=casting This is the list description from the webpage: This list covers the following topics: Scratch-building of model masters in a variety of materials, such as styrene, brass, wood, whatever. Making molds out of various materials, including RTV rubber, plaster, epoxy, etc. (anything goes) Casting of the resulting molds in plaster, polyurethane plastics, low-temperature metals, etc. The list is specifically aimed at modelers in any area (model trains, ships, aircraft, etc.) who wish to create their own models or parts from scratch, and duplicate them. It will cover techniques, materials, and other axillary topics, such as photoetching, vacuum forming, sculpture casting, etc. For more information, http://mc.cyklone.com/castlist.htm To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at http://www.onelist.com and select the Member Center link from the menu bar on the left. Regards, Bradford Chaucer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Lisa and Bill Wiseman Subject: Re: Perry Class Frigates Steve, The Port Side Mast stays mirror the stbd side lines. These pseudo-yardarms were where the skivvy wavers (Signalmen) would set up their flags/pennants, dry the "laundry" and generally tie up things to get them out of the way. We also used to hang firehose on them to dry it. Hope this helps, Bill Wiseman HM2 USN (Ret) USS Clifton Sprague FFG -16 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: ECammeron@aol.com Subject: SM/SP Radars in 1:350 Do any of the Photo Etch Radar Sets available include an SM or SP Radar? If not, does anyone have any thoughts on how to build one? If you build the BWN Enterprise or the TMW Yorktown, you need an SM or SP Radar to make it look right. There aren't many good scale drawings of the radars - the Intrepid Anatomy of the Ship shows an SM, but with no scale. From Friedman's Naval Radar, I think I could fake it by using a 1:700 SK-2 but it would be nice to have the real thing. And for 1:700, anyone doing a long-hull Essex (Hancock/Ticonderoga) would need the SM or SP. Eugene Cammeron Hi Eugene, IIRC, there were some drawings in the following article: Cruiser electronics RN/USN Early Warships Vol 1-6 At the very least, it's not a bad series, written by Norman Friedman IIRC. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "mkrumrey" Subject: Re: P-40's The best information I have on the P-40's that flew off aircraft carriers comes from an old "Aero" publication dtd. 1965. It shows a drawing of a P-40F with a star in the blue roundel with yellow surround. The star has a red do in the center. The position of these markings would be one on eaach side of the fuselage aft of the cockpit, and one on the port upper and starboard lower. There was an American flat painted on the sides of the fuselage below the aft portion of the canopy. There is a nose band, probably white or yellow, on the forward portion that ends at the first exhaust stack. The paint is a camouflage, probably similar to the brits, "Sand and Spinach". the spinner may be red. Unfortunately, it is a black and white drawing, and there are no references to the color. Mark Krumrey New Richmond WI -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: ECammeron@aol.com Subject: Re: P-40s aboard RANGER Yohan: I don't know about 1943, but P-40s delivered to Africa in 1942 by RANGER and the SANGAMON class CVEs wore the following color scheme: The original Dark Olive Drab upper surfaces were overpainted with Sand (Desert Pink) while under surfaces retained their original Neutral Gray or Deep Sky Blue. (The Deep Sky Blue was on aircraft originally intended for the RAF). If you can find 'Air Force Colors Vol 2 ETO & MTO 1942-45' by Dana Bell, there are two pictures of this scheme - p.14 on RANGER and p. 16 on CVE CHENANGO. Not very great pictures, but better than nothing. Eugene Cammeron -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: P-40s/RANGER Yikes, I thought I'd be able to put my hands on some photos easily, but.... The one thing I'm relatively sure of is that these a/c had the national insignia outlined in yellow at this time. Other than that, I'll keep looking. Best, John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: LEX Painting Qs LEX's flight deck was not painted maroon with orange striping. It was stained mahogany, with chrome yellow striping. Our USN Paint Chip Set 2 includes the prewar mahogany flight deck stain color. Linoleum was a resilient floor/deck covering derived from oxidized linseed oil on a backing of burlap (my wife has written a history of the development and production of linoleum, and the foregoing is VERY simplified). Regarding the color of the linoleum deck, I frankly don't know; I'd not noticed that reference before. I'll check with my partner in paint, though. Best, John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: LST Deck Colors This is a complex subject. However, let me say that Deck Green 20-G was NOT "lime green"; it was a very dark green, and is included with all the other USN greens in our USN Paint Chip Set 2. Some of the USN camo measures using green called for overall Deck Green decks, while others carried the patterns of greens, browns, and black, used on the vertical surfaces, across the decks as well. See Floating Drydock's _US Navy Camouflage, Volume 1_ for a beginning. You can also get some idea of these camo schemes in Al Ross' _Allied Coastal Forces_ V.2, and Victor Chun's _American PT Boats in WW2_. Best, John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Origional post >> Now that the scale questions is solved, what was the original post? << The original post had to do with the introduction of new categories at the IPMS nationals. I suggested since Steve Wiper was going to sponsor the Fletcher build, that I would like to see more 1/1200 and 1/1250 scale ships at the Nationals. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Michael C. Smith" Subject: Re: USS Lexington painting questions Chris, The flight deck was stained red mahogany, which I have modeled on prewar CV-2 and CV-5 using Testors Modelmaster Rust. The striping is (I think) chrome yellow and just plain insignia (or whatever they call it) yellow works fine, although it goes on too thin - I kept having to recoat it. I'm not the best source re: the linoleum, and I ran across the same problem on deck-edge netting when planning a prewar CV-2 (I got the plans done, but that's as far as I got). You could use photoetched radar screening - somebody makes a "do your own radar" photoetch, I think, and that's what I was planning. Best of luck, and keep the questions coming! Michael Smith -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "Michael C. Smith" Subject: Re: Old kit question - Midway Carriers Todd, Man, that's my favorite model as well - I still have the instruction sheet and my Enterprise in the closet. Having all those SBDs was great, and I still say that the flight deck was the best detailed of any model I have ever seen. I assume photoetched decks are better now, but boy, that one was something. I was really glad to see that GMM released a photoetch set for this kit, as it really could build into a great model with the right detailing. You do know that Revell also rereleased it as the Hornet, don't you. I just can't see why NOT the Enterprise. I know the BWN model is much better, but for the money, this is still the best larger-scale Yorktown class ship by far. Michael Smith Marshall, Texas P.S. Remember the box art? All three ships, barely a few hundred yards apart fighting off waves of Japanese bombers in heavy seas - how cool (and grossly inaccurate!) Yeah, but they sure as hell looked good: Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: BillBramha@aol.com Subject: Re: fwd >> When visiting the hobby shop in Austin, TX a few days ago the shop owner informed me that the Floquil salesman had come by and taken all aerosal cans of Floquil primer, gray and zinc chromate (red), off the shelves and taken them back. No explanation for the removal was given. I would assume that there is some health risk involved. No other aerosal sprays were removed, just these. If you recently purchased either type of primer, you should probably not use it, just to be on the safe side. << I recently purchased a defective aerosal can of Floquil primer, the nozzle of which clogged almost immediately. When I took it back to the hobby store, the owner told me Floquil had recalled all the spray primers he carried and gave me credit for the defective can. Bill Bramhall -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "Jens H. Brandal" Subject: USS Enterprise (CVN-65) hangar - part one in an occasionl series. In case anybody else are planning to include a hangar deck to their Tamiya kit, the following may be of interest. I plan to make this as a waterline model, and the hangar deck will add strength to the hull after cutting off the bottom. I have made the hangar deck out of 2 mm plasticard, so the first activity is to glue strips of plastic (I used Evergreen 2mm x 6.3 mm) to the insides of the hull - this will support the deck and must be positioned taking into account the thickness of the plastic for the deck to lie flush with the elevators. To make the deck itself, you will need two pieces of plasticard 110 mm wide. Draw the centerline and then on a 90 degree angle to the centerline, draw parallel lines with a spacing of 50 mm. The first straight edge of the plasticard will butt against the fantail bulkhead, and the width at this point of the hull is 90.8 mm. Mark the half of this (i.e. 45.4 mm) either side of the centerline. Then mark the corresponding width at each parallel line. The dimensions I found are as follows: 50 48.3 100 51.2 150 53.1 200 54.1 250 54.6 300 55 350 55 400 55 450 54.8 500 54.8 Your hangar deck should now fit quite well, but may need some minor trimming. Hope this helps anyone not looking forward to a lengthy trim and fit session. More to follow... Jens -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: CBNJBB62@aol.com Subject: Re: P-40s on Ranger & others Hi everyone, I hope that these is of help. Concerning the P-40's the Ranger made two transport trips of P-40's. A. May 1942 and B. July, 1942. This leaves the paint job for the P-40's as with Olive Grab with neutral gray underside using large black letters as US on the left wing underside with ARMY on the right underside. If you can find out the which squadrons were involved then a more clearer picture to individual markings can be found. My copy of Squadron's US carriers in action-part-1 has a photo of a P-40 leaving the Ranger with numbers in the front behind the prop. I remember the Midway carriers. They seem to have been produced in the late 60's and mid 70's particularly around the Bicentennial. You could make it into the Yorktown, Enterprise,and Hornet. The Moorestown in a peacetime version and the remaining two as wartime versions. The Hornet was the worst of the three. The Enterprise seem to resemble the ship into the Battle of Santa Cruz. Revell has never reissued since. A year ago I found one and bought it for 40.00 dollars. Hopefully someone will have one in their hundred's of kits collections to sell. Concerning the Perry class frigate question I have visited the Simpson FFG-56 (Perry Class) it is the same according to my photos that I took for my model. Craig Bennett -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: CBNJBB62@aol.com Subject: Tall Ships mock battles Hi, If any of you should watch the A+E mini series Horiato HornBlower which is on this April in 4 two hr movies on Sunday nights. You might find it interesting to know that A+E to promote the series is financing Tall ships to visit cities along the East coast-USA to do mock sea battles. Today April 3rd it was in Philadephia and then did it in the Delaware River. A little boring after one half hours. What other cities are they doing this? Craig Bennett -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: CapnTroy@aol.com Subject: Re: Perry class frigates. >> I am working on the Skywave 1/700 OHP class frigate. My photos show the rigging (stay lines?) from the starboard side of the main mast running down and attaching to a beam which comes out of the side of the superstructure above the main deck. My problem is deciding where the port side lines attach. I can't tell if they connect to the boat platform or if there is another beam sticking out of the side of the ship like on the other side. << Hi Steve, I was on the USS Curts FFG-38 for 5 years. The lines that you are referring to converge and attach to the very forwardmost/outboard corner of the 01 level boat deck on the port side. The beam that the starboard side lines attach to extends almost to the outboard side of the ship. Incidentally, the attachment points for these lines was painted red and marked "Danger High Voltage," so I doubt that they were just stay lines, probably some type of antenna. Troy Waters -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: John Burch Subject: Re: Perry class frigates The lines that Steve Lau asked about in the OH PERRY class are the HF Long Wire Antenna System. I checked the Booklet of General Plans and my set of (Not for Publication) builder's photos, but was not able to unequivocally locate the port lower termination point of these wires. However, the Booklet of General Plans shows that the starboard termination point (the beam he referred to) is at frame 176, which is the same frame as the forward point of the boat deck. Logically, the port side termination point is at the forward, outboard corner of the boat deck, which is at frame 176. For general information, there are six wires on each side, and the upper termination point is the 106 foot platform on the mainmast. They are black, insulated wires. The signal halyards are noticeably lighter in color than the HF long wires. John Burch Gaithersburg, MD USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: ironship@usit.net (Jon Warneke) Subject: Regarding USS Alaska plans accuracy Hi Everyone, Unfortunately there have been comments on this list that the plans published in the Dulin and Garzke book on US Battleships for USS Alaska are inaccurate. This statement is suspect since these plans match well to photographs of the USS Alaska taken in the 1945-46 time period. These photos come from the US National Archives, and have been published in numerous books including Dulin and Garzke's book, Norman Friedman's book "US Cruisers", and Steve Ewing's "American Cruiser of World War 2". Also, plans in Friedman's "US Cruisers", drawn by Alan Raven, match the plans in question almost exactly. Finally, Dulin and Garzke's book does site BuShips plan numbers used for the Alaska drawings, and these plans also seem to match what they have published. Are the plans in question accurate? From all available photographic evidence that I've been able to accumulate, they are quite accurate, with the exception that the main turrets were equipped with only two periscopes rather than the three that the plans show (this is from photographic evidence). Can we definitively confirm the accuracy of the plans? Not really, since these ships were scrapped in the late 1950's to early 1960's, and the only way of confirming accuracy 30+ years after the fact is by comparison to the photographic record of the ships to the plans in question. Any other statement definitely confirming or condemning this set of plan's accuracy can't be made. Jon Warneke Iron Shipwrights -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: Steve Singlar Subject: USS Yorktown Greetings all, National Geographic is producing a two hour special entitled "The Battle for Midway", on EXPLORER, on Wednesday, April 14, 1999 at 8:05 PM ET on TBS. The Yorktown discovery will be part of this program. Steve Singlar Pelham, NH Snow & Ice finally gone from the lawn. Mud season has begun -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: b29@ix.netcom.com Subject: Re: LEXINGTON DECK COLORS AND MARKINGS This subject was covered on SMML exhaustively several months ago. Perhaps Shane can direct the inquirer to the proper volumes(look around issue 387 before & after: Shane). However in summary of what was covered, here's the conclusions reached: Pre-war carrier decks were stained mahogany. This was a dark reddish brown, much like Boxcar Red. "Maroon", as described in the Stern book, is incorrect, as maroon is technically a purplish-brown. Also, the deck markings were not orange but an orange-yellow, tending mainly towards the yellow. Snyder and Short have a USN color chip set with the correct color on it, and if you look at THE READER'S GALLERY in THE 1250 PAGE of the Warship site, you'll find a color photo of a model with the correct colors. Also found on the site are photos of the Neptun LEXINGTON. Unfortunately the deck color on that model is too light, tending towards a darkened pumpkin color. Paul Jacobs 1250 Editor http://warship.simplenet.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: "Jeff Herne" Subject: USS Ranger P-40s and Operation Torch Yohan, The Ranger and Chenango made several trips to North Africa ferrying P-40s and other land based aircraft for the North African campaign, the first were almost a year before Operation Torch. Therefore, your camo schemes on the P-40s can vary considerably depending upon which trip you wish to represent.... The first a/c to arrive via the Ranger were 72 P-40Fs of the 57th Fighter Group, 19 July, 1942. These were a/c from the 64th, 65th, and 66th Fighter Squadrons. The aircraft wore standard Olive Drab (FS 34088) over Neutral Gray (FS 36118). Whether or not the P-40s were using the "other" TAC-ES680 Olive Drab (FS 34087) is speculative. At any rate, the upper surfaces of these aircraft were painted en route, with Sand (FS 30279), and arrived on station that way. Markings consisted of White Star on Blue background (no bars). There were no Yellow rings around the insignia at this point (July '42). The yellow surround was added in August-September of '43. Other markings consisted of a red 'in-group' number on the nose, and U.S. ARMY on the undersurface of the wings. The a/c call numbers were split between the insignia on the fuselage. These were white with black shadows. Ranger's second trip brought over the 79th FG, with P-40s, and these a/c were basically camo-ed the same way as the 57th. On Ranger's third trip in January 1943, she brought across P-40s of the 352th FG, and these a/c carry a mishmosh of schemes, mostly British Dark Earth (FS 30118) and Middlestone (FS 30266), and a few with Olive Drab and Middlestone. They had also adopted the US flag on the fuselage sides, starboard side upper, and port side lower wing surfaces. The US ARMY on the undersides was removed. None of these a/c carried the yellow surround. If you've got any other questions, feel free to drop me a note off-list. Jeff Herne A.I.M. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: Corny Wilson Subject: New subscriber Hello, I'm interested in miniature and ship in bottle scratchbuilds. Would be interested in hearing of needed tips. Thank you. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: "Caribbean Sun" Subject: attaching pe parts to resin kit Having just discovered resin and photo etched parts, and having received the Accurate Image USS San Francisco for my birthday, I was wondering how best to approach the attaching of pe parts. Before painting the sub assemblies, i.e. deck houses,etc.,etc.. or after. and does anyone know of a better source of the 5" open guns than the ones that came with the kit??? I am so excited to get this one going,but I dont want to blow it with poor construction. sincerely, Gary Grouell. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: "LEE PUCKETT" Subject: NEED JSP ADDRESS Dear Sirs, I need the address of "Jim Shirley Productions" a very small model ship manufacturer......I need to contact him about charity work I'm doing for the USS Oriskany Museum of which he is the only maker of the ship model.........if you don't have the address can you recommend a place to look? thanks very much W.Lee Puckett / Columbus Ohio AFAIK, Lee is not a subscriber to SMML, so could you please direct any replies to him as well. Thanks, Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: "Jens H. Brandal" Subject: CVN-65 hangar dimensions With reference to my other post regarding the Enterprise hangar deck, there is one thing that now puzzles me. The Detail and Scale book claims the hangar to be 732 feet long, 96 feet wide and 25 feet tall. Comparing the scaled dimensions to the kit, the height is OK (23 on the kit vs. 22 mm scale), but the lengths and widths are way off the mark. Measuring from the rear of the fan tail bulkhead, the edge of the forward elevator is 585 mms - that means the hangar is supposed to stretch for another 53 mms forward of that, but it doesn't look that far in the photos of the D&S book. As I intend to just open the rear elevators, that is more out of curiosity than need. Worst is though that the width is supposed to be 84 mms, and from my previous post, the plasticard must be 110 mms wide to cover the hull wall to wall. Now, the spacing between the inner and outer hull walls is quite thick judging by the photos, but this will look ridiculous even on the aft elevators where the hull is at the narrowest. Is this a printing error, or a mistake on the Tamiya kit? Do the hangar walls follow the curvature of the ship's hull, or are they parallel with the centerline? Jens -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 26) From: James Corley Subject: Re: Old kit question - Midway Carriers >> I was waxing nostalgic this weekend in Charleston, SC, and was thinking of a kit that Revell made years ago which was one of my all time favorites. It was the Midway carriers kit, which, if memory serves, allowed you to build any of the Midway carriers - Yorktown, Enterprise, or Hornet - from parts within the kit. Those were the days when you built a carrier in ~2 hours, complete with huge Testors Glue threads everywhere - but what fun !. Does anyone else remember this kit? I would guess that the molds are now what constitute the Revell Yorktown kit. I bet I built a dozen of these models over the years, most of them meeting their fate from the barrel of a BB gun or in the explosion of fireworks. << This kit is currently in release and Nautilus Models is developing a resin update set for it that will be available in Orlando/IPMS(USA)99 at the latest, please see the note in trades below. James -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 27) From: Steve Singlar Subject: Re: Old kit question - Midway Carriers Todd, I have one of these kits, in the wrapper somewhere in my basement. I bought it right after Christmas, 1975 (yes 1975). I saw it and thought I better get it now because military modeling must be fading given all the anti-war feeling at the time. (Little did I know.) I had hoped to build it as an Enterprise to replace my Aurora Enterprise, which I built as a kid. (The Enterprise was on display at the local reserve center, but was wrecked in moving.) I believe the Revell kit is still around. BTW check out: http://www.cv6.org and http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/8791/ These are web site for the Enterprise and the Yorktown respectively. CV6 is run by a fellow who's father was in air group 10. Steve Singlar Pelham, NH -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: ironship@usit.net (Jon Warneke) Subject: Iron Shipwrights next release Hi Everyone, Commander Series Models, Inc., is pleased to announce the release of USS Nashville, a Brooklyn class CL, circa 1944. This kit will be av