Subject: SMML08/04/99VOL509 Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 23:54:50 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: London hobbyshops 2: Japanese pre-WWII colors and marking 3: Re: horizontal surfaces 4: Re: Spruance, Oliver Perry colors 5: SOURCES 6: Re: Paint Question 7: Re: Doxford Standard Motorship Names 8: Re: Yamato 9: 1/350 GMM Missouri set 10: Re: One more CVS question 11: Re: P-40 & Ranger 12: Hopper Barge No. 5 13: Re: 1/700 Scale planks 14: Re: Modern RN Colours 15: Re: Ms 21 16: Re: Perry class frigate 17: Re: Loss of YAMATO 18: Kidd class conversion 19: New Phonetic Alphabet ;-) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: New books for sale 2: F/S or F/T 3: Re: Etched parts for Shell Welder needed 4: Royal Navy Paint Chips - Update -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: arne.rolstad@narvesen.no Subject: London hobbyshops Planning a trip to London in mid April...does anyone know the adress of some hobbyshops (preferably in London city) specializing in (ship) modelling and related topics...? Regards from arne.rolstad@narvesen.no -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: jpoutre@lehman.com (Joseph Poutre) Subject: Japanese pre-WWII colors and marking Hello again, I am planning to build some IJN ships, and wanted to do something a little different, so I've decided to paint and mark them in a pre-WWII style, around 1936-1937. What differences would there have been, if any? I know the lino decks would still be in place, but what about planes? Marking? Flags? The specific ships are the BB Mutsu, and DDs of the Asashio, Mutsuki and Shiratsuya classes. Thanks! JoeP -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: horizontal surfaces >> what are the horizontal surfaces? Are they Deck Blue 20-B or something else? << Horizontal surfaces are just that. Surfaces (decks, platforms, catwalks etc.) that are horizontal or parallel to the horizon. The color will vary from time period to time period. This is where some good reference material comes in handy. During WW2 for example most ships carried Deck Blue at one time or the other but the navy was constantly making changes to this by developing camouflage schemes for all warships. Find out exactly what time frame the ship represents and go from there. I've said this before and I'll say it again. Get the two Floating dry-dock publications: WW2 Camouflage (I think that's the name) and Camouflage of the WW2 Era, Fleet Carriers. They are both very reasonably priced and are invaluable and quite accurate. Between the two books they cover every class of warship, all the Camo schemes with good illustrations, color notes and the USN Measure for the scheme. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Spruance, Oliver Perry colors >> However, I'm having great difficulty in selecting the correct shades of Grey. The colors I most desperately need are the hull/superstructure and deck colours. Ideally, Humbrol or Extracolor shades would be best... I also have a Spruance & OHP on the blocks, to which the same questions may be applied! << Spruance and Perry class vessels have the usual Haze Gray on vertical surfaces. All hatches, chocks, and other details on the deck are painted Haze gray as well. The entire deck surface on most modern USN vessels is now cover with a nonskid material that appears to be a dark gray color. Some modern vessels have the upper mast structure and radar painted flat black to keep a neat appearance. Soot tended to build up on the Haze gray mast structure. Some have it black, some don't. Cover yourself and find a photo somewhere. Back to the color. Since I work with Model Master paints I can't recommend a Humbrol/Extra Color substitute. Haze Gray is a quite light shade of gray with a blue tint. Nonskid surfaces are as I said, quite dark gray. The helopad surface is even darker. I use the same color used for the nonskid decks but I add dark blue and a touch of dark green to darken it. Remember to lighten these colors for 1/700 scale models. Since no one makes deck markings to the correct scale shade, lightly dust over the deck markings with the nonskid color to tone them down and weather them a bit. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ Oklahoma, where it's clear and 72. It's tough to stay in and model. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Baker Subject: SOURCES In response to Jeff Herne's comments about sources of information about the RANGER's participation in the North Africa campaign, it might be worthwhile to point out that it isn't the NUMBER of sources (all of which might be wrong, quite possibly because they are citing each other) but the authenticity of the source which should carry the day. In the case of DANFS, the compilers were working with the actual ships' logs and official battle reports; they were also trained professional historians with many, many years' experience in working with primary source materials. Most of the sources Jeff cites, alas, are by popular historians or hobbiests working with, at best, secondary sources. There is, of course, no such thing as an ABSOLUTELY accurate historical narrative (or why would we have, for instance, so many hundreds of books about the reign of the first Queen Elizabeth?), which is what makes history (and historiography) such fun and historians such prickly people. At any rate, although there are occasional problems with various articles in DANFS (and the Naval Historical Center is slowly--agonizingly slowly--revising and reissuing it), it really should not be trashed in preference to untested sources. By the way, at least in the version I mistakenly purchased, the CD-ROM version of DANFS available from an educational publisher is NOT an accurate transcription of the original books; it appears to have been typed in rather than scanned, and numerous typographical errors and extensive omissions appear throughout. Buyer beware! Cheers/A.D. Baker, III -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: Paint Question You have it exactly right--Ms.21 carried Deck Blue 20-B on all horizontal surfaces. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: Doxford Standard Motorship Names The following were still around in WW2: MONSTELLA (ex-WAR GAZELLE, torpedoed by HMS RORQUAL 8/42); IRIS (ex-WAR STAG, sunk by allied aircraft at Messina, 6/43); FORT de DOUAMONT (ex-WAR DEER); TREFUSIS (ex-WAR ACONITE, torpedoed 3/43); HOMEFIELD (ex-WAR BALSAM, bombed off Greece, 4/41); HARESFIELD (ex-WAR ASTER), torpedoed 9/42); KING ALFRED (ex-WAR AZALEA, torpedoed 8/40); ROKOS VERGOTTIS (ex-WAR BEGONIA, torpedoed or mined 12/41); PANAGHIS (ex-WAR LOBELIA). Those were just the ones built by DOXFORD; there were lots of others of the same design built by other yards. Source: Mitchell & Sawyer, _British Standard Ships of World War I_, Liverpool: Sea Breezes, 1968. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Norman Samish Subject: Re: Yamato >> Today is the 54th anniversary of the sinking of the Yamato. If you could today, take a moment and remember that great ship and the brave men onboard her on that last sacrificial cruise. << Look at http://members.aol.com/usswasp1/yamato.htm for a photo of a direct hit on the Yamato. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Loren Perry Subject: 1/350 GMM Missouri set Several people were questioning some information and features of the Gold Medal Models 1/350 WW2 Missouri set. Now that I've learned about this list, I can shed some light: The wooden decks on the Missouri were definitely, positively, still wearing their Deck Blue paint during the surrender ceremony on Sept. 2, 1945. The color information in the GMM instruction sheet is wrong and was based on erroneous information taken from the book "Mighty Mo" by Gordon Newell & Vice Admiral Allan E. Smith, USN (Ret.) In that book, the authors stated on page 43 that: "Sunday, September 2, 1945, dawned with scattered clouds...Mighty Mo was prepared for the ceremonies, a green, baize-covered table set up on the admiral's veranda deck...The light teak decks had been holystoned to gleaming perfection, wartime paint came off the ship's brightwork, and brass shone like gold in the sunlight of victory." This version has now been proven to be erroneous, probably based on fading memories. A year or so after I'd designed and printed the 1/350 Missouri instruction sheet, I purchased a then-new book entitled "The Victory Era in Color" by Jeff Ethell (copyight 1994, Reminisce Books, Reiman Publications, L.P., 5400 S. 60th St., Greendale, WI 53129. Order phone is 1-800-558-1013. This amazing volume is full of hundreds of never-before-seen full-color Kodachromes taken by ordinary soldiers and sailors (and civilians) during the war years. Two of these shots, seen on page 92-93, show close-ups of the Japanese surrender ceremony with General MacArthur on deck. And the deck is blue! In fact, the paint on the deck is so clean and spotless as to appear fairly fresh and new. The only natural wood visible anywhere is the walking cane being held by one of the Japanese dignitaries. When I reprint the 1/350 Missouri instructions, I'll make the correction. I apologize to anyone inconvenienced by this error. As for the "less-than-inspired" detailing on the 1/350 WW2 Missouri set itself, ie. the lack of a.a. details, here's the reason: The Missouri set was one of the earlier designs I did using a computer and I was still learning. The more recent 1/350 Fletcher set was the first one to include gunsights, etc. for the 20mm guns. I have since enlarged the 1/350 40mm Bofors gun detail set (GMM No. 350-10) to now include gunsights, shoulder rests, handwheels, and armor shields for sixty (60) 20mm Oerlikons, more than enough for the Missouri. The price is now $8 vs. the older set's $5. And assembly instructions for both the 40mm and 20mm mounts are etched right into a corner of the metal sheet. As for watertight doors, eventually I'll refine the 1/350 Missouri set to include more of those, but you can now get the correct types of doors (and lots of other bulkhead details) in the upgraded GMM No. 350-11 Watertight Door set ($5.) Ditto extra ladders in the 350-9 Extra Ladder set (also $5.) Using these extra smaller sets, you can now build an all-out state-of-the-art 1/350 scale model of the Missouri with more detail than the law allows. Not that I'm trying to rip anyone off with extra sales (building models is really a luxury for all of us anyway), but there was only so much room on the original WW2 Missouri sheet before it got too big to give me the yield I needed for the price to be held down. Producing 1/350 scale photoetched detail sets for very large ships is expensive - that's probably why so few other companies make them. But in the near future I think I can squeeze some more details in when I refine the set. Loren Perry -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: PulligS@aol.com Subject: Re: One more CVS question Rusty asked about the forward elevator on the Essex vs Oriskany. There is an excellent photo pg. 175/D1 in Faltum The Essex Aircraft Carriers of 5/60 Essex has normal square with rounded edges forward elevator. Intrepid, Hornet, Oriskany and maybe others had the pointy kind. Page 133 says "the final three, the Lexington, Bon Homme Richard, and Shangri-La, all had the later angled decks and enclosed "hurricane" bows included with their SCB-27C modernization's; they also had their forward centerline elevators enlarged at the same time. " If "legal" I can scan the photo and JPEG and e-mail to you individually or post to the archives page. Why do we not use that more? The most fun on the MARIST site a few months ago was the "guess the ship post" when the guy broke the rules and posted a photo to the site. We have the perfect site to play those games if it is still working[Jeff?] Mine and Jim's are the only photos there except some cute kid pics. Sam Pullig -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: CCramMiG@aol.com Subject: Re: P-40 & Ranger OK, I have to add one more cent to the P-40/Ranger issue. Warships Number 5, U.S. Aircraft Carriers in Action, Part 1 from Squadron/Signal productions has a photograph on page 20 showing P-40Es being loaded on the Ranger (the shape of the island support plus SB2Us on the deck is a dead give away). The P-40s are definitely E models, in Olive Drab and Neutral Gray (at least upon loading) with a light colored spinner and band on the forward fuselage. The National Markings are the pre/early-war star with red dot. The Vindicators on deck also have the red dot in the national insignia. So the USS Ranger at some time before May 1942 (dot was eliminated from the national insignia early in May 1942), loaded and probably transported some number of P-40s (at least 2 are shown in the photo), to some location in the Atlantic theatre (that's where Ranger was in early 1942). My guess is that the April trip referenced in DANFS did occur and that the P-40s were delivered to Accra, Gold Coast with the ultimate destination being India as stated in the photo caption in the Squadron book. No one ever said researching history was easy. Charlie Cram Beavercreek, Ohio -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Kenneth H. Goldman" Subject: Hopper Barge No. 5 This falls under the heading "obscure vessels." Do any of you know of any drawings, photographs, references on British Hopper Barges? Several were built by Ferguson Brothers of Port-Glasgow. Hopper Barge N0.5, PHOEBE, built in 1913 for the Port of Calcutta, was used to transport members of the Calcutta Light Horse in their successful raid against three interned German ships in Marmagoa Harbor in 1943, immortalized in the movie "The Grey Geese." All I have is a single dark photograph and general description from the book "Boarding Party," not enough from which to accurately scratch build a model. My search of the Ferguson Brothers archive at the University of Glasgow turned up nothing. Ken Goldman THE WALRUS AND THE CARPENTER http://www.wman.com/~khgold/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "Caroline Carter" Subject: Re: 1/700 Scale planks Hi Rusty, >> forgot to ask you at the IPMS/USA nationals last year but how on Earth did Brian make those wonderful recessed lines for the planking on the 1/700 Chester kit? I didn't think it was possible to cast such delicate lines, not to mention 1/700 scale! Pre-formed sheet plastic? << It IS a trade secret (!) and no, it's not pre-formed sheet plastic.. it is all Brian's own work... 4 planks to the miilimetre for 6 inch cruiser planking.. absolutely parallel, equally spaced lines.. a feat of micro-engineering by any standards, and no, it's not etched brass on the master pattern either, as some people have thought... actually, Peter Hall has produced 6 planks to the mm.. he's just looking for a ship that carried appropriately sized planking.. maybe a 1/1200 scale British cruiser.... mmmm! Cheers, from the Extremely Sad Bunch at WEM (ESB's) For a great build of the WEM 1/700 HMS Sussex 1942, and to view THAT planking, Click here! http://whiteensignmodels.simplenet.com/sussex/sussex.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "Caroline Carter" Subject: Re: Modern RN Colours Hi Chris >> something smaller. I'm about to splash paint all over my Revell 1/700 Type 22, slightly modified to depict HMS Birmingham. However, I'm having great << Typo excused!!! WEM, of course, are the only makers of Type 22 kits, in 1/700 and 1/350 Scale! >> difficulty in selecting the correct shades of grey. The colours I most desparately need are the hull/superstructure and deck colours. Ideally, Humbrol or Extracolor shades would be best... << These come from our own kit instructions and relate to Humbrol colours... Light Admiralty Grey (65% 127 + 35% 130): All areas of hull and superstructure, deck fittings and weapons, unless otherwise stated Ocean Grey (106): All decks and walkways unless otherwise stated Black (33): Funnel cap, gun barrels, anchor cables, mast tops, waterline boot topping, hull numbers, Gemini inflatable & Pacific Seaboat White (34): Liferaft canisters, SCOT radomes, Seawolf launch tubes, bollards & fairleads, launch below waterline, top surfaces of launch, flight deck markings and ident letters. 967/968 radar antenna, faces of Seawolf director antennae. Borders of hull numbers. Dark Blue (77): Hull of Cheverton launch Signal Red (174): Warning circles (a load of different 1/2- and full-circle sizes in red and yellow are found on WEM D 701, 1/700 Modern RN Decals, which are more accurate and of a much higher quality than the Revell ones ....and the Shanghai Dragon decals for hull numbers and letters on the Modern RN subjects are VERY incorrect... we actually created a new font for the WEM decals to match RN pattern as there was no commercially-available font in existence to match!) Incidentally, here are some general notes During the Falklands War the mast tops, funnel cap, anchor cables, fairleads, seawolf launchers, SCOT radomes, Cheveton launch and hull numbers on RN vessels were all overpainted Light Admiralty Grey. The Lynx helicopter would normally have been Dark Blue, with "ROYAL NAVY" in white along the tail boom, with dark red & blue roundels on the rear fuselage. Rotors would be black. This was changed to Dark Grey with black lettering during the Falklands War. I wouldn't like to comment on Modern U.S.N. colours as this is not our field of expertise.. I'll leave that to others on SMML! BTW, we may be making the full colour plan and profiles available shortly, from the WEM kits.. from Askold thru Iron Duke to Hood to Invincible.. 2 options.. one a glossy printed reproduction for framing and a "plain paper" version for modelling colour references (I think that Warspite's camouflage scheme could prove fairly popular!) Best Regards, Caroline Carter http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models White Ensign Models, Kits to build not to archive!! Think WEM, think R.N.! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: ECammeron@aol.com Subject: Re: Ms 21 20-B, Deck Blue. In Ms 21 it could only be Deck Blue. Eugene Cammeron -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: steven lau Subject: Re: Perry class frigate Thanks to everyone who helped answer my earlier question. What a great site! I really wish I had found it earlier. Incidentally, I have a set of plans for the Clifton Sprague FFG16 which I obtained from the Floating Drydock and was using for my model. Until, that is, I had a horrible painting accident and was forced to stop work. But that's another story. So I might be back with questions for the ex FFG16 sailor. By the way Rusty, any idea which day and time the naval seminars are to be at the Orlando nationals this summer? Thanks again, Steven Lau -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: Minadmiral@aol.com Subject: Re: Loss of YAMATO Hi; Hats off to all the brave seamen of WWII. Hats off to all seamen of all time. "The ocean is so huge, Lord, and I am so small". The last is something I read over the last 50 years, it stuck in my mind, unfortunately I don`t recall the source. Chuck Duggie Veteran, US Army -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: Shane Subject: Kidd class conversion Hi gang, Since the Spruance thread a few weeks ago, I've been toying with the idea of a "what if" scenario of the Kidds in RAN service. Since I know stuff all about the Kidds, other then they were based on a Spraunce hull for the Shah's navy. Which kit would I need to obtain in 1/700 to do a good conversion to RAN service. Also, what was the prefix used for Kreigmarine ships. I've used KMS, based on what Tamiya had in it's box, but I've also seen KM, DKM as well. Regards, Shane - where autumm has arrived & it's getting nippy :-((. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: "Edward F Grune" Subject: New Phonetic Alphabet ;-) New Phonetic Alphabet You may not be aware that a team of international academic authorities has been commissioned by the communications community to create a new phonetic alphabet free of patriarchal references (such as Papa) or words that might otherwise be offensive to minorities (e.g., Zulu) or those of differing gender. (Romeo, for instance, connotes a sexually obsessed individual, possibly a harasser.) Fortunately, we have been able to obtain an early sample of their work. Try any common communication, and you will realize that a mere US$ 238 million has been well spent! A Affirmative N New B Bearing O One C Czar P Ptomaine D Disregard Q Question E Emergency R Repeat F Fire S Say-again G Gnu T Tsunami H Hold U Unsafe I Iago V Violation J Jalepeno W Weather K Knew X Xerox L Llanelli Y Ypres M Mnemonic Z Zero -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: HDente@aol.com Subject: New books for sale Profile Morskie: INJ Maya----$14.00 (price increase due to costs rising) SBD Dauntless Units WW2--$15.00 B24 Units of the Pacific Theater--$15.00 K-Boats-British WW 1 Steam Fleet Submarines-Soft cover reprint-has photos and fold-out plans--$19.00 (we also carry a plan set for this class) Naval Battle of Guadalcanal: Night Action, 13 November-Possibly the most famous surface action the US Navy ever engaged in-The book takes each ship from both side though the battle, its prequil and aftermath individually.$28.00 Bismark Chase-uses computer modelling to offer new theories about the battle, loss of the Hood--$29.00 STILL NEW WSW Lutzow--$80.00 Shipping: $4.00 to $50.00, $5.00 $50.00 and up. RESEARCH IN SCALE 205 MARYLAND AVE PATERSON, NJ 07503 USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Katz, Gene S" Subject: F/S or F/T Italian battleship Guilio Ceseare ,ModelCard/ModelFan product, paperboard stock, highly detailed and colored, acquired recently out of curiosity, mint condition, 1/200 scale, WW1 era. Will make a very nice looking ship. Too many models, too little time, too much domestic opposition. $20 or ?. Thanks, Gene. gene.s.katz@lmco.com or 609.722.3035 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Caroline Carter" Subject: Re: Etched parts for Shell Welder needed Hi James, Re the Atlantic Models Shell Welder photoetched brass detail set, this is available exclusively from ourselves, White Ensign Models, in the U.K. at 11.02 pounds worldwide (EC add 17.5%). Shipping to the U.S. would be no more than 1.50 pounds airmail. We do accept a variety of credit cards for ease of payment. Best Regards, Caroline Carter White Ensign Models, http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: John Snyder Subject: Royal Navy Paint Chips - Update Well, fellow SMMLers (sounds so much better than SMMLies, doesn't it?), we now have the following Royal Navy colors mixed and in hand: MS1, MS2, MS3, MS4, MS4A, B5, 507A, 507C, Western Approaches Blue, Western Approaches Green, Mountbatten Pink Light, Mountbatten Pink Dark, Pink, Black, White, G10, B15, G20, B30, G45, and B55. We'll still be shooting for release by the end of June. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume