Subject: SMML10/04/99VOL511 Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 01:00:40 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Japanese pre-WWII colors and marking 2: Re: Pre-War U.S. Naval A/C Colors 3: Re: Corsair Armada Pheonix kit 4: Re: Non-skid pathways on Ticos. & Spruances 5: Lexington Colours 6: Re: USS Kidd from Spruance 7: Re: Arii Spruance 8: Reply to A.R. Millan 9: Re: Pre-War U.S. Naval A/C Colors 10: Spruance deck edge details 11: Re: USS Phoenix from Corsair Armada 12: Benson Class destroyers 13: Re: 4"/50 Deck Gun 14: Re: Pre-War U.S. Naval A/C Colors 15: Re: Prewar USN A/C Colors 16: Re: Navy A/C Colors 17: Re: Kidd Class Conversion 18: RUSSIAN SHIPS TO ADRIATIC 19: Paint Equivelents 20: Re: Gato class deck gun 21: Re: New Phonetic Alphabet ;-) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: LCVP 2: 1/72 F****R-Class Corvette 3: WEM webpage update/David Macgregor plans -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Sheridan, John" Subject: Japanese pre-WWII colors and marking >> I am planning to build some IJN ships, and wanted to do something a little different, so I've decided to paint and mark them in a pre-WWII style, around 1936-1937. What differences would there have been, if any? I know the lino decks would still be in place, but what about planes? Marking? Flags? The specific ships are the BB Mutsu, and DDs of the Asashio, Mutsuki and Shiratsuya classes. << Note also that Blue Water Navy makes an excellent set of IJN Warship decals in 1/350th scale. Some of the decals can also be used on 1/700th scale ships as well. John Sheridan @ Microscale Decals http://www.microscale.com If I'm talking Decals, then I'm talking for Microscale, Otherwise I am speaking for myself. What I do to Spammers: http://microscale.com/images/N2.jpg I am not a Member of the Lumber Cartel (tinlc) and I am not Unit #631 Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! http://www.cauce.org Support the Ban of Dihydrogen Monoxide! http://www.cis.udel.edu/~way/DMRD/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Brandon Wood Subject: Re: Pre-War U.S. Naval A/C Colors Squadron put out a publication a few years back titled Navy Air Colors (or something along those lines) bt Tom Doll that contains ALL of this info. I belive it is out of print, but well worth hunting down a copy. Just in case you are unable to find it, I have listed some info below. The fuselage of the aircraft and the underside of the wings were painted with a clear varnish that had aluminium particles suspended in it (Never grey with "yellow wings" to my knowledge). Most people I have discusssed this with agree that the Floquil "Old Silver" is a pretty good match for this, but at the scale you are working in, probably any silver or "Natural Metal" color would work fine. The tops of the wings were painted Orange-Yellow, with several manufacturers making a version of this, including Testors (ModelMaster) and Aeromaster. The tail colors denoted which carrier the planes belonged to. During this time and up to late 42, the carriers had an air group assigned that carried the name of the carrier (ie Lexington Air Group). For the Lex it was Lemon Yellow during your time frame. As for sections, each squadron was suppossed to have 6 sections with 3 aircraft in each section for a total of 18 aircraft per squadron. Each section had a color. The section leader (for example 2-F-1) would carry a full cowl marking, the fuselage stripe, and the wing chevrons in Insiginia Red. The next plane (2-F-2) would only have the upper portion of the cowl painted and no fuselage stripe or wing chevrons, while 2-F-3 would only have the lower half of the cowl painted (no stripe or chevrons). Other section colors include True Blue(4-6), Insignia White (7-9), Insignia Black (10-12), Insignia Yellow (13-15), & Willow Green (16-18) The Commander of the Air Group (CAG) flew a specially marked plane, and these varied as far as type go, but all had a fuselage strip in the color of the Air Group that was at an angle (looked like /) with the title on the side ( Commander Lexington Air Group )and wing chevrons in the Group Color. Hope this helps, if mistakes are present they are mine,and not Doll's (this is from memory, don't have access at home). Good Luck. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Corsair Armada Pheonix kit >> I need to know Who sell the USS Phoenix from Corsair Armada (1/700) in the States? << You can get them from the Naval Base or Pacific Front. You might also check WEM. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Non-skid pathways on Ticos. & Spruances >> Also, the no-skid deck areas are delineated on some ships (definite nonskid walkways) and on others the entire deck is no skid. No two ships are exactly alike. << This is interesting. I have lots of photos of Ticonderogas and Spruances I used when I designed the Ticonderoga/Spruance Class set (shameless plug). I went back and checked again and I couldn't find one that showed delineated nonskid pathways. I'm not calling anyone a liar or anything like that, but I would like to know which ship has this nonskid pathways. It would make for an interesting looking deck. If the sender of this post can send me a scan, I would really like to see it. I also failed to mention (and was properly corrected) that the upper mast structures did indeed vary from one ship to the next. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: Lexington Colours Hi Chris Round about 1937 Lexington aircraft carried Lemon Yellow tails. There are some good photos of their SBC-3's in Squadron/signal Aircraft No. 151 SBC Helldiver in action. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "Les Dorr Jr." Subject: Re: USS Kidd from Spruance >> The article in question is for an Arii kit & the issue is July 1985. << Mine is at home, but IIRC, it was July *1995*. Les "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." Ooops, sorry, a minor typo mistake on my part. Yes it is July 1995. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Arii Spruance << Also is the Arii Spraunce a copy of the Skywave? >> No. Arii released that kit about a year after the Skywave kit hit the market. I have looked the kit over a while back as I recall, it wasn't bad at all, especially at $16.00. The bulkheads aren't as well detailed as the Skywave model. The Skywave release is still the best one around. The molds have been leased to several model companies over the last several years. DML is currently selling the Skywave models (USS Normandy, Ticonderoga and Connaly) at very reasonable prices compared to the $28.00 Skywave prices. Other Skywave kits on the market under other names are USS Cochrane (Adams class destroyer), Sovremeny class destroyer, Oliver Perry class frigate, USS San Diego, Type 42 HMS Exeter, Type 42 HMS Manchester, HMS Sheffield type 42 destroyer. All these kits are priced way below the Skywave price, so get them while you can. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ Thanks Rusty, Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: SteveWiper@aol.com Subject: Reply to A.R. Millan Question about what color the railings were painted? The stanchion was painted the same color as the surrounding vertical surfaces, while the life lines themselves were black. On a model, the camo colored stanchion will be noticed, while the life lines will blend into the background and seem as small as they are supposed to be. Try it, it does look good. Good Luck Steve Wiper/Classic Warships -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Ross Bruce-QBR000 Subject: Re: Pre-War U.S. Naval A/C Colors I'll take a shot at this one, see how much of it I can remember off the top of my head here at work. >> Can anyone suggest a good source that gives the colors for the U.S. Navy aircraft for the Pre-War era? << If you can find a copy of volume #1 of the Monogram series on Naval Aircraft it is an excellent resource. Squadron put one out years ago, but I think that one is out of production. >> Were the colors assigned to the Aircraft Carriers or to the Aircraft Squadrons? Did different types have different colors or were all aircraft assigned to a carrier the same? << By 1937 the tail colors were assigned to the carrier, in the case of the U.S.S. Lexington the tails should be a lemon yellow color. This would have applied to all squadrons aboard ship. Just for reference, the U.S.S. Saratoga was white, U.S.S. Ranger was green, U.S.S. Yorktown was red, and the U.S.S. Enterprise was blue. >> Most of the illustrations I've seen show the "Section Leader" aircraft with a colored stripe on the cowling and a broad fuselage stripe - did only the section leader have these or did other a/c have just the fuselage stripes or colored cowling (or both? or neither?) << There were six sections of 3 aircraft each in the pre-war squadrons. Each section was assigned a particular color, starting with the first section the colors went, red (A/C # 1,2,3), white (A/C # 4,5,6), blue (A/C # 7,8,9), black (A/C # 10,11,12), green (A/C # 13,14,15), yellow (A/C # 16,17,18). To identify the A/C in each section, the section leader had a 20 inch band in the section color around the fuselage, his was the only bird to have this stripe, as well as having the entire cowling painted the section color. The second aircraft in the section had only the top half of the cowling painted in the section number, and the third aircraft had the lower half painted in the section color. All aircraft in the squadron had the chevrons a top the wings, they were painted in the approriate section colors and were used primarily as a visual aid during formation flying. The chevrons pointed forward typcially, but there are cases were this was reversed. The squadron and position of an aircraft would be displayed on the side of the fuselage, for example say the 4th aircraft of VF-2 operating off of the U.S.S. Lexington would display 2-F-4 on the side. Since this is the 4th aircraft it is also the section leader for the second section, so the "-F-" would have been centered over the section leader white fuselage band. All squadrons would have been identified with the number of the carrier they were assigned to, in this case you'd have VF-2, VS-2, VT-2, and VB-2; later U.S.S. Hornet actually carried two fighter squadrons so they were numbered VF-71, and VF-72. Sometimes a squadron would also have a 19th aircraft that was used as the squadron hack. In this case it would display the correct side code, such as 2-F-19, but would not display any section colors or patterns. I hope this helps and isn't too goofed up. Bruce -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Raynor Johnston" Subject: Spruance deck edge details Into a 1:72 scale model of "Merrill" (or Kincaid) and need to know deck edge details i,e, are they rounded or basically right angled "butted plates". Also do they have have a toe rail i.e an upstand of a welded flat bar on edge in from the edge of the deck. Further can anyone point me to good photo archive. I have had alook at Greyhound Navy stuff but no close up detail as yet. Must admit have not looked at every ship in the Spruance page yet. thanks Raynor Johnston -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From Timothy Dike Subject: Re: USS Phoenix from Corsair Armada >> I need to know Who sells the USS Phoenix from Corsair Armada (1/700) in the States? << Try Bill Gruner at Pacific Front Hobbies at http://www.pacificfront.com/ if anyone has one it's him. mailto:Cadman@kc.net http://www.kc.net/~cadman/ "A still sea never wrought a skillful sailor" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Denis & Marilyn Campbell Subject: Benson Class destroyers I would like to build a model of the uss Ordraneau, DD617, launched at the Fore River shipyard in Quincy Mass. in 1942. This is for a friend whose father served on this ship. As far as I can determine, it was a Benson Class DD and I have seen one picture of it but not being a naval historian, I am not sure what kit I could use as a starting point (I don't think there are any kits of a Benson) - could anyone make a suggestion as to a suitable kit to start with? I would like to build it 11/350 or larger and, if I can get a kit that is close, I can probably get plans from the Floating Drydock and more pictures from my friend to help with the changes. Any help or advice will be appreciated Denis Campbell Avon Mass. USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: 4"/50 Deck Gun Todd, Give me a chance to do a little digging and I'll xerox and send you what appeared in The SubCommittee's magazine on that weapon. IIRC, it should be enough to let you build one. Send me your snail mail address. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: JSTBALL@aol.com Subject: Re: Pre-War U.S. Naval A/C Colors To: Chris Neel There were (are) two aircraft in a section. Two sections in a division. The chevrons atop the aircraft are the "bearing lines". Naval Aviators of that era flew "stepped up" formation, i.e. the second airplane was behind and above the leader. The pilot of the second aircraft simply put himself in the middle of the line on the particular side of the section leader on which he was flying. In modern Naval Aviation, the wingman takes a fixed point on the leader's aircraft (say, the leader's wing tip position light) and places it on a fixed point on the leader's fuselage (canopy bow, door line, etc.) and maintains that position no matter what the leader does. When the wingman takes this position, he is stepped down several feet from the leader, depending on the type aircraft. Each type of tactical aircraft willl have this position spelled out very specifically in that particular airplane's operating (NATOPS) manual. Jeff Ball Carmel, CA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Marc Flake Subject: Re: Prewar USN A/C Colors Chris: Please excuse the length of this posting, but this is one of my favorite subjects. I have a 1/72 collection of 15 of these beauties. For references you have the inexpensive: Squadron's Navy Air Colors Vol. 1, 1911 to 1945 (it says $8.95 on the cover, don't know if they are still available at that price). And then there's the expensive: Monogram's U.S. Navy & Marine Corps Aircraft Color Guide (it says $39.95 on the dust jacket, again, don't know if it's still inprint). Both books have the information you need. The Monogram book has more color photos and a bonus -- color chips in the back. It also has a color rendition of a squadron of F4Bs in flight, illustrating this colorful era. One very important fact -- the wings are Chrome Yellow (orangey). As an aside, my wife thought I'd made a mistake when I painted the wings Chrome yellow and the section colors Lemon Yellow. In answer to your question about tail colors -- at that time (1937), all aircraft on a carrier had the same tail color. Lexington's color was Lemon Yellow. Each three plane section had its own color. In order: Red, White, True Blue, Black, Willow Green and Lemon Yellow. Six sections. All aircraft carried wing chevrons. In most cases, the point began on the leading edge of biplanes, although there was some experimentation with reversing the chevron on some aircraft. The aircraft's number was placed inside the chevron. On monoplanes, the cheron had an imaginary point at the propeller hub--the actual stripe beginning at the leading edge wingroot. Numbers on monoplane wings were on either side of the fuselage, inside the stripes. The front part of the cowling of each section leader was painted all around in the section color. The section leader also carried a fuselage band in the section color. The the top half of the portside wingman's cowling was painted; and the bottom half of the starboard wingman. Neither wingman carried a fuselage band. After reading your original posting, I decided to do the same thing, only I'm going to do the Lex in 1938, after the new bows were added. I bought 18 F3Fs and 18 SB2Us from WEM last month. Now I'm working up the nerve to putting togther 1/700 scale biplanes. How were you planning to apply the wing chevrons? Are you planning on adding the fuselage codes? Marc in Mansfield (TX) Where I'm watching the Yen fluctuate to see just how much my Waveline Maryland is going to cost me. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: ECammeron@aol.com Subject: Re: Navy A/C Colors Look for "The Official Monogram US Navy & Marine Corps Aircraft Color Guide", Vol 1 and Vol 2. The Tail Colors were assigned to the ship. Also, the section bands and markings are well covered in the two books. Eugene Cammeron -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: khglam@ucdavis.edu Subject: Re: Kidd Class Conversion Pitroad used to sell a resin kit of the Kidd class DDG. However, I talked with Mizuio Suzuki, the President of Skywave/Pitroad a month ago, and he told me that he is discontinuing this kit because DML will be releasing a injection mold version of the Kidd DDG soon. You may want to wait for this kit rather than converting an existing Spruance kit. Chung -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: Baker Subject: RUSSIAN SHIPS TO ADRIATIC NO Russian warships have been sent to the Adriatic. A total of seven were declared under the Montreux Convention for passage through the Bosphorus, but none actually showed up. The three combatants mentioned in the Russian press were the only active KARA-class DDG, the KERCH'; the ancient KYNDA class cruiser ADMIRAL GOLOVKO; and the KASHIN-class DDG SMETLIVYY. The only Russian Navy ship noted passing through in the past week was the MOMA-class navigational aids tender LIMAN--described as an intelligence collection vessel in the press but never equipped for that role in her prior career (about nine MOMAs served as AGIs at one time or another). Since the LIMAN has been reported as having been stricken from the Russian Black Sea Fleet as long ago as 1994, it's possible that she was passing throught he Bosphorus only for the purpose of going to the scrapyard at Aliaga. Anyway, Yeltsin talked big but sent nothing, and, even if he had, there's nothing in the Black Sea Fleet that should cause NATO maritime commanders any worries. A.D. Baker,III -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: Bradford Chaucer Subject: Paint Equivelents I don't recall whether this has ever been addressed, but is there a chart cross referencing the various MS scheme colors to readily available paint lines like Model Master, etc. Regards, Bradford Chaucer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Ives100@aol.com Subject: Re: Gato class deck gun Hi Todd- There is a good 4"/50 deck gun that I know of in white metal from HR, but it is the wrong scale and more appropriate for the Revell Lionfish. I have drawings and diagrams of the 4"/50, as well as other deck guns of WWII subs. Most sub deck guns in 1:350 tend to be somewhat sketchy, as at that scale, it's tough to add details such as sights, training wheels and seats to relatively small guns. Contact me via email and I'll give you details of the information I have on these guns. Tom Dougherty Visit the SubCommittee at: http://www.wolfsong.com/SubCommittee/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: James Corley Subject: Re: New Phonetic Alphabet ;-) >> New Phonetic Alphabet You may not be aware that a team of international academic authorities has been commissioned by the communications community to create a new phonetic alphabet free of patriarchal references (such as Papa) or words that might otherwise be offensive to minorities (e.g., Zulu) or those of differing gender. (Romeo, for instance, connotes a sexually obsessed individual, possibly a harasser.) << While I can believe this as the work of the obsessive PC crowd, the new alphabet will not work, mostly from an ATC perspective. Too many of the new "letters" are ATC commands, but knowing the bunch running Washington (not Clinton, the bureaucrats who stay there regardless of who is Prez) it is entirely possible. This sounds like a joke troll, but I'll bite anyway. Here are the ATC words, syntax and commands included in the list (16 of 26) A - Affirmative N - New B - Bearing O - One D - Disregard Q - Question E - Emergency R - Repeat F - Fire S - Say-again H - Hold U - Unsafe V - Violation W - Weather K - Knew Z - Zero -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Shaya Novak" Subject: LCVP Lindberg only made 5,000 of the LCVP's in numbered boxes. Get them before they are gone for good. goto http://www.modelshipbuilding.com and get 20% off. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: John Snyder Subject: 1/72 F****R-Class Corvette Not to start a stampede, but there is one for sale at the Warship Web Site in the buy/sell/announcements section (not cheap, though!). John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Caroline Carter" Subject: WEM webpage update/David Macgregor plans Hi Chappies and Chapesses, First off, apologies over my recent 4-or-5 day responses to orders and E-Mails... Warspite, the quarterly VAT returns, PSM subs and more have slowed us down over the past 2 weeks.. like Easter weekend, we will be slogging away till 3am (or 5.30 in Dave's case one day last weekend!!) to bring ourselves up to date. Please check out the updated website details at: http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models/news.htm I have added the PROFESSIONAL 600 page (no pics yet!) http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models/pro600.htm I have updated the PROFESSIONAL 700 pages http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models/professional/wempro.htm Also, the warspite http://whiteensignmodels.simplenet.com/warspite/warspite.htm has been updated.. a few bods on SMML might be interested to check out the camouflage illustrations in particular! I have added a page with details of Ken Summa's "new arrivals".. hope you like it Ken! Ken of course has done the 1/350 builds and reviews in the latest PSM and mastered the WEM 1/350 Victorious patterns, due for later this year. http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models/summa.doc and an update to the Plastic Ship Modeler pages (most of you should have yours by now..) to include details of Issue 19. (except for those of us in the Antipodes, who are waiting patiently: Shane) http://whiteensignmodels.simplenet.com/psm.htm One message I would like to convey to folks out there concerns David Macgregor, the plans man over here in the U.K. (sells the Norman Ough range, and is also a draughtsman of considerable renown himself). I know that some of you are awaiting plans from us.. We hadn't been able to get hold of David until a week ago.. unusual, as he is an elderly gent who spends much time pottering around his home and garden and the phone is usually answered by him or his delightful wife, although orders can take several weeks to fill. When we finally spoke, he sounded awful... it transpired that several weeks ago, he fell in the garden, fracturing a hip and thigh.. this required extensive stabilisation due to the nauture of the fractures, so he was in hospital a while.. however, a few days before coming out, his wife died.. the poor old boy could hardly get his words out, he was so upset.. his wife and lifelong partner, had been buried the day before.. he apologised profusely.. there was no need of course, and said that he would get everyone's orders out a.s.a.p. but had restricted mobility so was limited in what he could do or where he could go. So, he asked me to convey this message to all concerned, so that the respective customers will understand. Best Regards, Caroline Carter http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models White Ensign Models, For a great build of the WEM 1/700 HMS Sussex 1942, Click here! http://whiteensignmodels.simplenet.com/sussex/sussex.htm Kits to build, NOT to archive! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume