Subject: SMML17/04/99VOL518 Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 00:00:38 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Blatent troll for comments 2: Airfix kit in another scale 3: VHS tape exchange. 4: Re: Flags 5: Re: Hawaiian hobby shops 6: Re: Airfix 1/400 ships 7: Re: Airfix 1/400 ships 8: Re: Normandie 9: Re: BWN Perry Class 10: HMS Agincourt, HMS Erin, SMS Brandenburg kits needed 11: Midway 12: Re: 1/400 Airfix Ships 13: Re: Glue vs. Cement 14: Re: Paravanes 15: Scale effect 16: Re: Nat'l Geographic Midway special -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: 1/700 Benson class DD wanted 2: BANZAI -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Shane Subject: Blatent troll for comments G'day SMMLies, Well as the title says, this is a blatent troll for comments (good or bad) on my Krivak article on IM. Seeing as nobody has mentioned it, I'd thought I blow my own trumpet & ask for any feedback on it. You can find it at: http://www.internetmodeler.com/apr99/ships/krivak.htm . All the best, Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Felix Bustelo Subject: Airfix kit in another scale Hi folks, Douglas is correct that Airifx kits come in 1/600, 1/72 for coastal craft and 1/1200 for wargaming (excluding sailing ships of course) with one confirmed exception. Please bear with me as I do not have the photocopy of the article that I am refering to, but Airfix once released a kit of the SS Southern Cross which is a larger scale than 1/600. IIRC, it was issued in the 1950's and was one of the first ship models they had released. It was a very basic kit from the photo's in the article, but the Airfix name/logo is clearly visible. I will check my archive and post more detailed info on Monday. As for Joe's question on the Normandie - she was unique is more ways than one. No sister ship was made and most ocean liner buffs (myself including) think that she was the most beautiful liner ever made. Innovative in design (for the 1930's), fast, sleek, huge (1,029 feet long, 118 ft beam over 80,000 tons). Her interiors were beautiful - Art Deco to the max, but very tasteful. The uptakes for the funnels - the last of the three was a dummy - were split and joined at one of the upper decks. This enable the designers to create huge open public spaces. The first class dining room was 300 feet long and 3 decks tall! They certainly broke the mold when she was built. For more info, check out this site: http://gnv.fdt.net/~dontje/normandie/nintro.html Felix Hi Felix, Yes, you are right about the SS Southern Cross. For all those who are interested, the only reference I have on the SS Sourther Cross is in the letters section of the Aug 1983 edition of Airfix Magazine. The actual scale of the kit is approx 1/460 (don't know what scale it was sold as), has a part count of 21 & was moulded in light grey(hull) & "duck egg green" (superstructure). According to the instructions copied in the issue, she was a Tourist class passenger steamer. Also unlike future Airfix kits, the hull appears to be in one piece (hollowed out). Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From Timothy Dike Subject: VHS tape exchange. I guess most of you saw the National Geographic special on Midway and the Yorktown. I am aware that there a few that missed it, so why not start a Tape exchange for SMML'ers that would deal with Ship Modeling or history subjects. This would give some of us a chance to view those shows we miss from time to time. I've done this before for a NASCAR mailing list and it was well worth the cost of mailing the tape. The plan is simple everyone that wants to participate can send their snail mail address, and the first person mails to the next one on the list. With the last one sending the tape back to its owner. Any thoughts on this, or suggestions? mailto:Cadman@kc.net http://www.kc.net/~cadman/ "A still sea never wrought a skillful sailor" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Duane Fowler Subject: Re: Flags >> 1. Are signal flags the same size for all sizes of warships, or do destroyers have smaller flags than BB's? Are modern Sigs the same size as WWII Sigs? And does every country use the same size flag? << While there is no "official" size for international signal flags and pennants, they are generally 6 feet to 2 meters on the hoist. They are either square (as used by the US) or slightly rectangular (6X8 is more common in the RN). The pennants are up to 9' in length. Smaller units will use smaller flags, usually being half sized. Remember, the idea is to be seen so size is important. Of course, at 6' per flag and a foot separation, it takes 28 feet for a four flag hoist (like the call letters), and smaller ships would have to use scaled down flags to fit. The flags of today are generally the same as those used during WWII. The RN used different numerical flags during the war, but has converted over to the US standard since then. From what I have been able to determine, all major navies used the same basic flag sets from WWII to the present. >> 2. Anyone know the Ensign size used for each type of vessel? Each country? Where would I find out this kind of info? (in this case I know each vessel has a certain size, but do not know that size say for a BB, CA, DD, FF, etc.) << No, different sized ships used different sized flags. For the US and Royal Navy, fleet aircraft carriers and battleships used 12' ensigns, cruisers and escort carriers used 9'ensigns, and destroyers used 6' ensigns. Smaller vessels would carry ensigns sized for the vessel (even a 6' ensign would look rather large on a PT). The jacks were sized differently depending on the country. The US jack was the same size as the star field of the national flag. The Union Jack was larger, usually being three quarters the size of the ensign. Holiday colors were generally the next size larger than that normally carried. Along with the other flags, there was also the commissioning pennant. This was a long thin strip flown in port for commissioned warships. In the RN it was 4 inches wide and up to 20 yards long! With all the talk about the Yorktown lately, If you look at the photos of her at Midway, you will see a truly huge flag flying from her mast. No mistaking her nationality. All of this is from memory and I will have to check my sources tonight. If I have made errors, I will post a correction tomorrow. Best regards, Duane Fowler Also check out SMML01/01/99VOL 413 & from there on in fro a thread on British Ensigns, which just happened to be started by Duane ;->. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Loren Perry Subject: Re: Hawaiian hobby shops In answer to Steve Singlar's request for info on Hawaiian hobby shops. There is a very good one on Oahu called The Pacific Hobbyist at 2015 South King, Honolulu, HI 96814. Their phone number is (808) 942-2851. Ask for Brad or Owen. Their ship model selection (and other items) is excellent with a nice collecction of detail parts as well. Some of their built-up models are displayed at the USS Arizona visitors center at Pearl Harbor. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "Pietro Caltabiano" Subject: Re: Airfix 1/400 ships I have a small collection of old catalogues (Airfix, Heller, Revell, Aurora, Life-Like, Frog, Bandai) from 1969 to 1975, but I can't find no Andrea Doria or Normandie kit in 1/400 or 1/600 scale in any catalogue. I'm an italian modeller and after years (30) of waiting I have definitively lost my hope to see a kit of an italian classic liner like Rex, Andrea Doria or Michelangelo in a "big" scale. At least I hope that Airfix would re-release the Queen Elizabeth, that was the first liner kit I'd build! Pietro Caltabiano mailto:pietro@ctonline.it -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Richa5011@aol.com Subject: Re: Airfix 1/400 ships Felix wrote: >> His reply was that Airfix had released both a Normandie and Andrea Doria kit in 1/400 scale in the early 1970's. << This may have taken place (I have no personal recollections of these kits, nor can I find mention of them in the Airfix Magazines of the era) during the time when both Heller (well known for their 1/400 ships) and Airfix were both owned by Humbrol. However that would put the releases in the later half of the '70's rather than the early half. It was during this era that there was a certain interchange of kits between Heller and Airfix, I remember the Airfix 1/24 scale aircraft were offered in Heller boxes and some of the Heller kits (Vampire, Javelin, Etc.) appeared in Airfix boxes. This would also go a long ways to explain the use of 1/400 scale by Airfix. However, I have looked through my collection of Airfix Magazine and can not find any mention of release of these kits, nor are they mentioned in the ads of the various shops. I look forward to hearing from the rest of the group on this. Nat Richards -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Les Case" Subject: Re: Normandie >> Confessing to my total ignorance of ocean liners, I'd like to know whether the NORMANDIE is a sister ship to any other ocean liner that is known to be in kit form by AIRFIX, or anyone else for that matter. IOW, could the NORMANDIE simply be built by modifying another ocean liner kit? << As far as I know, the Normandie was unique (ask the French-- those who know of her-- and they might yet get a bit huffy that any other ship could equal the Normandie). I've never seen a plastic kit of her, although I have seen a very expensive 1/350 display model of her as well as 1/1200 or 1/1250 metal waterline models. Background: The U.S.Navy seized the Normandie from the French Line in 1942, renamed her the U.S.S. Lafayette and began to refit her as a troopship. Apparently, the conversion crews were in such a hurry that someone got careless (welding torches and kapok life preservers) and set her on fire. Fire boats from the Port of New York poured so much water on top of her that she capsized at her pier. What the fire didn't destroy was ruined by a year and a half on her side in the Hudson. She was ultimately stripped to the main deck, righted and, for all intents and purposes, sent straight to the scrap yard. The Normandie is generally remembered for some of the same reasons as the Titanic: she was big, fast, luxurious and she came to a bad end. I would snap at a chance to build a 1/600 full-hull model of the Normandie-- or 1/400 for that matter-- and I think there might be a few others who would like to build her too. An Andrea Doria kit would be cool, but a Normandie kit would be a prize. Les Case -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Chris.Evenden@agso.gov.au Subject: Re: BWN Perry Class Fellow SMMLers, Just a quick note to thank all those who replied on and off list to my enquiry re the BWN Perry Class FFG. With so much positive feedback, the kit is obviously a goer, so my 1/350 HMAS Canberra will become a reality! Thanks again, Chris Evenden -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Alpaslan Ertungealp" Subject: HMS Agincourt, HMS Erin, SMS Brandenburg kits needed Hi to everyone, I am looking for the following ships in kit form (any scale between 1/200 and 1/700; bigger scales preferred). Quality is important and I also need plans and documentary + any accessories available for the kits (if necessary). I don't mind multi-media kits as I am highly experienced in all types of modelling medium. I hope there is someone, who can help me: * HMS Agincourt (as built) * HMS Erin (as built) * SMS Kurfurst Friedrich Wilhelm (Brandenburg class) modernised at Kaiserl.Werft, Wilhelmshaven (needed as of Sep.12/1910) * SMS Weissenburg (Brandenburg class, SMS Goeben (Moltke class) (needed as of Aug.16/1914 or anytime after) * O. H. Perry class (FFG 16, 20, 21) * Knox class (FF 1063, 1076, 1092, 1093 and FFT 1079,1084, 1085, 1090) Alpaslan Ertungealp -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Allan Salas Subject: Midway If you check out the latest issue of National Geographic, you will find a great drawing of the Yorktown resting on the bottom. If Ballard had found the four Japanese carriers and the remains of the Hammand, a great book full of such renderings would be on my bookshelf. Does anyone know if he intends to return to the area to finish his search? On another note. I would like to thank fellow modeler Mike Quan for obtaining a book at a local hobby shop (Texas) that has been out of print for a while. He saw my request for info regarding this issue. No doubt it would be gathering dust somewhere; instead it's on my workbench ready to aid me. Also I would like to thank those who helped me with information on the USCG Itasca. If anyone runs across any information regarding this vessel or her sisters (Lake Class), I would be most appreciative. Is there anyone who might know someone who will build this vessel? I have a few pictures which can help and I am interested in a completed kit, say 1/72 or 1/92, some scale where fittings would be relatively easy to obtain. Allan Salas -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Marc Flake Subject: Re: 1/400 Airfix Ships I can't remember how I got it, but I have in my possession a 1972 Airfix catalog (Ninth Edition). It's been a source of amusement and research for many years. Now, for the quick answer--no 1/400 ships. Also, no Miles Juniper. LOL The catalog lists six liners in the Famous Ships Series 2,4,5,and 6: M.V. Free Enterprise II (a luxury car ferry, "this kit is fitted with stabilizers, bow and stern doors, enabling cars to be driven straight through.") R.M.S. Mauretania "For 22 years this was the fastest North Atlantic liner. During World War I she served as an armed cruiser and then as a hospital ship. This kit contains 139 parts and is 15 3/4 inches long." S.S. Canberra "The largest turbo-electric passenger liner ever built. .. . the kit includes markings for deck games." (A photo shows a close-up of the markings on the deck. QE and QE II also have deck markings, but the Canbera looks like a floating athletic field.) Queen Elizabeth II -- 19 1/4 inches long R.M.S. Queen Elizabeth -- "Her maiden voyage in 1940 was a well-kept secret and she served the war years as a troop ship." S.S. France -- "The pride of the French Line>" 20 3/4 inches long. One question, why did RMS change to SS and why doesn't QE II hve either an RMS or an SS in front of it (typo?)? Marc in Mansfield (TX) Where I'm waiting to see which will get here first, the Waveline Maryland from Japan or the WEM Warspite from England (And watching the exchange rates fluctuate is driving me crazy). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Growlrr@aol.com Subject: Re: Glue vs. Cement Hi Gang There is actually a specific difference between glue and cement, although we all tend to use them interchangeably....Glue is an adhesive that sticks two parts together under it's own strength and without chemically changes the two parts being glued together....Elmers white or carpenters glue is a great example...Glue something with it and if you dont like it, remove the glue with water and no harm is done to the part. Cement, on the other hand is a chemical bonding agent that creates a chemical reaction with the parts being cemented, changing their structure and fusing them together...any of the typical modeling cements do this by melting the surface of the parts being cemented together, them evaporating out of the weld and leaving the parts fused....This is why we have people that call thumbprints camoflage on hulls...once the chemical reaction begins (almost immediately) the part is forever altered, which of course created the market for filler putty, but thats another story... Have a great weekend all Glenn -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) Reply-To: "Alicja & David Lombard" Subject: Re: Paravanes >>> IIRC, paravanes were used for minesweeping. In that they're towed by the ship to help prevent mines hitting warships. They were also used in mine hunting as well. <<< >> If you tow a paravane, isn't the first thing that will encounter the mine the ship itself? I thought the paravanes were selfpropelled units, attached with cables to the ship which could guide the mine anchor chains away from the ship. Bismarck even had a special rod system in the stem (S device) below the waterline which could be extended as an attachement point. << Paravanes were most definitely towed. My father commanded a minesweeper, he commented that with the paravanes out, his 132' ship had to be handled as a much larger ship. I'll check, but I think he mentioned the Navy preferred large ship experience on 'sweeps. David Lombard Rossmoor, Orange County, CA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Martin Aigner Subject: Scale effect "The Official Monogram Painting Guide to German Aircraft" recommends adding white in the following ratios: 16% for 1/32 scale, 25% for 1/48 scale, and 35% for 1/72 scale for scale effect. Applying this to 1/700 ships would have me add 350% of white to the camouflage colour. Is this correct? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: CokerRE@aol.com Subject: Re: Nat'l Geographic Midway special I did not get to see the Midway special but from the comments it seems to follow the typical documentary, too many of the same repeated scenes. This is not from a lack of material, but just plain laziness on the part of the producer to both find correct films and to have experts check it. One of the best naval documentaries of recent years was the A&E broadcast on the Battleship Bismarck. Whoever put it together did his homework going through the archives in Germany and the UK. Where he could not use the real ship, he at least used the sisters to good effect. One thing about modern warships that people don't realize is that most of the large combatants carried both still and motion picture teams to take pictures for news and training purposes. The archives are full of reams of these films that probably have not seen the light of day since they were taken. Of course when the ship sinks as in the case of the Bismarck, a lot of the films go with them, but even in her case, enough was taken and removed from the ship before she sailed that we have a lot of photo documents. An exception to this was probably the Japanese Navy, but I think they had lots of films made but most were destroyed during the war or at wars end when orders went out to destroy everything. Fukui could not bring himself to destroy his material and thus we have volumes of his beautiful photos. On the contrary the German historian Eric Groner had to destroy his archive at gunpoint when the Soviets captured Berlin. Any of us who are familiar with the ships involved can go through these documentaries and point out flaw after flaw--perhaps we ought to make ourselves available to these producers to review them prior to broadcast. PC Coker -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From T