Subject: SMML18/04/99VOL519 Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 00:01:31 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: French Ironclads/Predreadnoughts 2: Re: Plastic kit of Normandie and Andrea Doria 3: Re: 1/700 Benson class destroyers 4: Scale effect comment 5: Re 1/700 scale Benson wanted 6: RMS etc 7: Re: Midway Special- P.C Coker's remarks 8: 2 parter-BWN FFG and UK WW-II 9: Book Request 10: Re: R.M.S. and S.S. 11: Re: Hawaiian hobby shops 12: USS Cimmaron oiler WWII 13: Re: Paravanes 14: Re: Normandie 15: CV-6 deck markings -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: OzMods 1/700 and 1/600 ship kits 2: Normandie Model -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Malcolm Waite Subject: French Ironclads/Predreadnoughts Does anybody have any information on the colours of French naval vessels 1875-1900, the colours I have is black hull, white superstructure and yellow funnels, with natural timber decks. This is for vessels in European Waters, white hull in the Far East. Have been having a good look at all the photos I have, Conway and Burt, this looks OK but some of the photos in Theodore Ropp's book on the French Navy Development look a bit like buff/tan for the superstructure. Does anybody have any information? Malcolm Waite Liverpool UK -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: dhjonespsm@juno.com Subject: Re: Plastic kit of Normandie and Andrea Doria Regarding the thread about 1/400 or 1/600 scale kits of Normandie and Andrea Doria, I am sorry to the bearer of bad tidings, however, there have been to my knowledge NO plastic kits in ANY scale of these two beautiful ships. My references for plastic kits (and my experience in collecting and building them) goes back into the early nineteen fifties. I only wish there HAD been kits of these two ships. I would certainly have one of each (at least one). I remember in the late 70's there was a company offering built up finished display models of Atlantic liners (hardwood with metal castings - full hull and mounted on a plaque) that including both of these ships (at a VERY high price - over $1000.00). This may be the source of the misinformation. There was not a kit version offered. I have not been able to locate the advertisement in my files so I cannot confirm the scale but my memory says it was 1/600. I think at one time (back in about 1975-76) there was also a paper model listed of the Normandie. I think it was in 1/400 scale, which may also help explain the rumors. Both ships have been offered in 1/1200 - 1/1250 scale, but not in plastic, and not in kit form. Daniel Jones Plastic Ship Modeler magazine -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: dhjonespsm@juno.com Subject: Re: 1/700 Benson class destroyers >> I'm looking for the Classic Warship's 1/700 Benson class destroyer kit # CW018. I understand it is out of production, does anyone have any that are for sale? I'm looking to build the following Destroyers; DD-483 Aaron Ward DD-599 Barton DD-436 Monson DD-459 Laffey << You should be aware that the Classic Warships kit is just a copy of the Kobo-Hiryu BENSON class kit. If the Classic Warships kit is no longer available you might still be able to get the Kobo-Hiryu original through Bill Gruner of Pacific Front Hobbies who imports the Kobo-Hiryu line. However, there is a better 1/700 BENSON available from Bureau of Small Warships. This kit is original (except for the weapons which are copies of Skywave parts) and is probably a better starting point for any sort of conversion work. The parts breakdown (with separate superstructure parts) is admirably suited for conversions. Casting quality is very good and the price is reasonable - $26.00 each - including shipping. You can get them from: Bureau of Small Warships P.O. Box 28571 San Diego, CA 92198-0571 Mark Pace (the proprietor and pattern maker for BSW) makes a series of American DD's in 1/700. BENSON, LIVERMORE, SIMS, GRIDLEY, MAHAN, DUNLAP, FARRAGUT, BENHAM, BAGLEY, SOMERS, PORTER, FLETCHER, GEARING, and SUMNER classes. All are in late war rig. All sell for the same price as listed above. I have all of these kits and I think they are quite good for the most part. A few will require some correction but all are a better starting point than the old Kobo-Hiryu efforts. All of these kits have been reviewed in past issues of Plastic Ship Modeler magazine. Daniel Jones -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: JGordon262@aol.com Subject: Scale effect comment Martin writes: >> The Official Monogram Painting Guide to German Aircraft" recommends adding white in the following ratios: 16% for 1/32 scale, 25% for 1/48 scale, and 35% for 1/72 scale for scale effect. Applying this to 1/700 ships would have me add 350% of white to the camouflage colour. Is this correct? << Martin, your math is skewed here. You assumed a 10X greater addition of white, when the ratio added to the larger scales is only on the order of 10% or so with each scale diminishment. So if 1/72 is 35% white, then you could extrapolate that 1/144 would be 45%, 1/350-55%, 1/700-65%. This is if you follow an arbitrary formula. If the color looks too dark, add more white. Let your eyes be your guide. JG -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "ELBERT14" Subject: Re 1/700 scale Benson wanted I don't have one to sell, but Bureau of Small Warships makes a 1/700 scale Benson class destoyer. I have it and recommend it. I like that kit better than the 1/700 scale Classic Warship destroyers I have, although I don't have their Benson. I'll try to find the address for BSW, I seem to have misplaced it. (See above for the address: Shane) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: RMS etc RMS stood for Royal Mail Ship and indicated that the company who owned the ship had a contract to carry the Royal Mail on that particular route. SS stood for steam ship and MV for motor vessel. Perhaps they had stopped using the designations by the time QEII was operational. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: b29@ix.netcom.com Subject: Re: Midway Special- P.C Coker's remarks While P.C. may be correct that the needed films and materials are often available if enough effort is made to find them, I do not think that the sole reason for using inappropriate footage, or repetitive scenes is due to laziness. The major reason is most certainly MONEY. People who are hired to do the research and provide the material would probably be glad to spend endless hours searching for new film, or making sure that everything is perfect, so long as they are getting paid to do it. But the bottom line is that someone has to pay for it. Maybe, if George Lucas were doing it, and he decided that he wanted to spend whatever it took (as in the case of his new STAR WARS movie), he could have recreated the whole thing on computer, without any flaws. But anybody who's in the business knows that funding is not unlimited. Sure, perhaps Nat. Geo. or the producer or Ballard could have put more money into it, to make sure that none of the scenes of U.S. planes had the wrong insignias, etc. and also that perhaps some undiscovered footage was included. But let's keep in mind that the advertizers who pay for this stuff aren't catering to us rivet counters. They have an audience that doesn't know a TBD from a TBF or an F4F from an SBD, and wouldn't care anyway. These guys are selling Dodge CARAVANS, not 50 Cal. watercooled machine guns. And the guys who sell the advertizing have to answer to their bosses who have to answer to their CEO's who have to answer to their corporate shareholders and so on. This is business-that's the bottom line. I'd love to see new footage. I'd love to see the flaws eliminated. But pragmatically, I'm glad that at least someone is doing this stuff, flawed as it may be, so that millions of otherwise uneducated people get a chance to learn about history. It's one thing if the stuff presented has serious historical errors, that effectively misrepresent the truth. It's another if they show a quad 40 when it should be a 1.1 mount. In the latter case, better that than nothing at all. Those of us who really know those kinds of errors can live with them. Those who don't aren't hurt by it, and are probably learning more than they knew before. When I was a kid, I watched VICTORY AT SEA, which great as it is, has a lot of the errors that P.C. complains of. That show grabbed my interest, however, and helped start a life-long love of ships and naval history. Now, I know a whole lot about Midway. I have models of all the ships that were there. I have at least a dozen books in my library about the battle, and I have learned to distinguish the errors in VICTORY that I didn't discern as a kid. This is really what we want these documentaries to do; to interest and inspire people to do their own research and investigation, to learn for themselves, and to keep alive the interest in these things for future generations. Paul Jacobs -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Mike Taylor" Subject: 2 parter-BWN FFG and UK WW-II Hi all! OK- I admit it, I've been eyeing the FFG kit myself for a while now-my question is: is it a true Perry class or is it a Thatch? Next I'm looking for info on HMS Campbeltown-a Wickes class 4 stacker lend leased and used in the St. Nazaire raid. It was supposedly modified to resemble a German Mowe class torpedo boat. I've seen a couple of close up photos but not enough to really know what it looked like during the raid. Also still need colors (colours) for Fairmile B/D, Albacore and Sir Lancelot class coastal boats :( Anyone? TIA..............Mike T Hi Mike, Check out the following articles written by SMMLie John Lambert in Airfix Magazine. they may be of some assistance. Also try & find John's & Al Ross's book on "UK coastal craft WWII" (or something like that ;-) ). It comes highly recommneded by other SMMlies. RN coastal forces Pt 1 WWII Airfix Magazine Aug 1978 pp 652 article RN coastal forces Pt 2 WWII Airfix magazine Sept 1978 pp 13 article RN coastal forces Pt 3 WWII Airfix Magazine Oct 1978 pp 80 article RN coastal forces Pt 4 post WWII Airfix Magazine Nov 1978 pp 139 article As for Operation Chastise, the only reference I have is: After The Battle No 59, which has the usual pictures of the Campbelltown. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Growlrr@aol.com Subject: Book Request Hi Guys I'm looking for a copy of a book called "Flush Decks and Four Pipes"...I can't remember the authors name (John Alden?)....I know I have seen it in paperback format, but I would be happy with any decent version....Does anyone have a copy they would be willing to part with at a fair price or I'll trade for an autographed copy of my Warship Perspectives Atlanta Cruisers book...I'll even personalize it.... :o) Thanks Glenn -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Dave Swindell Subject: Re: R.M.S. and S.S. >> One question, why did RMS change to SS and why doesn't QE II hve either an RMS or an SS in front of it (typo?)? << R.M.S. didn't change to S.S. R.M.S. was applied to ships chartered to carry the mails, hence Royal Mail Ship. SS was applied to Steam Ships, and M.V. to Motor Vessels. As far as I know QE2 (never QE II) has not generally used any prefix, but would have been S.S. on completion, but is now M.V. after re-engining. Trivia Question - Who is QE2 named after? Dave Swindell -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: CaptainOD@aol.com Subject: Re: Hawaiian hobby shops I got to know John at Eastern, and we would talk models whenever he would pass through flight training at Miami. He is also known as a great airplane artist, and I have one of his, a DC-3 in EAL markings, although I don't know if he ever turned his talents to ship paintings. Bob O'Donovan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: CBNJBB62@aol.com Subject: USS Cimmaron oiler WWII Hi Does anyway remember a model of the Cimmaron class oil tanker of W.W.II. I don't remember the manufacturer or the scale but I saw it hanging on a wall at hobby shop perhaps 30 yrs ago. But the box was equal in size to the Revell Fire Boat FIRE FIGHTER kit. Well, any one remember this kit? Craig Bennett -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Suvoroff@aol.com Subject: Re: Paravanes >> Paravanes were most definitely towed. << Yes, but on some larger ships aren't they towed from the bow? For example, on USS Arizona there was equipment for towing the paravanes from the lower edge of the bow, the paravane cables acting to protect (hopefully) the sides aft of that from mines. Yours, James D. Gray -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: ordrazz@ne.com.au Subject: Re: Normandie Hi guys, AFAIK, there was a plastic Injection model made of the Normandie, made by a company called CARLO MARQUARDT (not Airfix) in 1:250 scale, & I have a small thumbnail pic to prove it, i also have a small thumbnail of the Queen elizabeth in 1:250, & the Mauretania (I) in 1:250 by ALBATROSS. Now, unless the web page I got them off is wrong, they do exist..I'm trying to find the page in my favourites, & looking on the net, but I'm not finding it.... if anybody else wants to add/correct me on this please do.... or if you want the pics... I do not know if these companys exist/existed My .63 cents worth Cheers & 73's for now, ordrazz Web Page: http://www.ne.com.au/~ordrazz/frames.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Steve Singlar Subject: CV-6 deck markings For the person looking for CV-6 deck colors, I received this message from the webmaster at CV-6. Hope this helps. Steve >> You might want to check out this picture: http://navsource.org/Archives/CV/CV-06_Enterprise14.jpg It seems to show two wide-spaced, broken yellow/orange lines running most of the length of the flight deck (though the aft portion is obscured by planes) and two shorter angled white lines near the forward end of the deck. The picture is from mid-late 1945. Also, there is an out-of-print publication called "The USS Enterprise (Detail & Scale, Vol. 39)" listed on Amazon.com, by Bert Kinzey. I don't know which Enterprise it is, but it seems reasonably likely it is the Second World War ship. It might be worth a bit of digging to see if this publication can still be found, and what exactly it is. If anyone knows or finds out, I'd be interested in knowing. Joel. << -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Greg Anderson" Subject: OzMods 1/700 and 1/600 ship kits Hi Shane: A month back we ran out of stocks of some of our 1/600 and 1/700 Daring Class destroyer kits ... and a big "thank you" to those modellers who caused this to happen! The photoetch for the 1/700 kits has finally arrived from the UK, so the 1/700 HMAS Vampire and HMAS Vendetta are now available again. We've also found production slots to produce more 1/600 HMAS Duchess and HMAS Voyager kits, so these are now available again. Decals are included in