Subject: SMML19/04/99VOL520 Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 00:17:09 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Normandie model 2: Re: Normandie model 3: Re: Normandie model 4: Re: HMS Campbeltown 5: Re: CV-6 Deck Markings 6: Re: HMS Campbeltown info 7: Re: Mythical CIMARRON kit 8: Re: Book request 9: Re: Scale effect comment 10: Re: Victory at sea 11: Reply to Dan Jones 12: FAIRMILE MTB's 13: Re: French Ironclads/Predreadnoughts 14: Re: Normandie model 15: BWN Furutaka 16: Upcoming Mirage Kits 17: Horatio Hornblower and Titanic 18: Campbeltown crossthreading 19: Re: Perry model -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: FS WSW Karlsruhe 2: 10th annual 700er's Meeting -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: dhjonespsm@juno.com Subject: Re: Normandie model >> AFAIK, there was a plastic Injection model made of the Normandie, made by a company called CARLO MARQUARDT (not Airfix) in 1:250 scale, & I have a small thumbnail pic to prove it, I also have a small thumbnail of the Queen elizabeth in 1:250, & the Mauretania (I) in 1:250 by ALBATROSS. << While I am certainly willing to retract my statement in the previous SMML that there was no plastic kit of Normandie, pending any documentary evidence - I doubt that these kits are plastic. I think the kits listed here are card models. I also noted the posting that there is apparently a new 1/400 kit of Normandie coming out in card model form. Is it actaully new or is it a re-issue (reprinting) of the kit I recall from the mid seventies? Daniel Jones Plastic Ship Modeler magazine -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: MGross1352@aol.com Subject: Re: Normandie model Oh yee of larger scales; there is no Normandie in 1:250 by Carlo Marquadt! The model is 1:1250! In fact, there are Andrea Dorias, Frances, United States, etc produced by various 1:1250 manufacturers. The Normandie was indeed a beautiful ship and the Mercator model I have does her justice. There is also a 1:1250 model off the ship as the U.S.S. Lafayette, produced in resin by Quadrant. So why not give the scale a try; detail is fantastic and there are a vast number of ships available. Just check the 1:1250 info by Paul Jacobs As regards the Detail and Scale Enterprise book by Bert Kinzey, it covers the current Enterprise not CV-6. For those who need info on what ships were released in platic contact John Burns the editor of Kit Collectors Clearinghouse at 3213 Hardy Drive, Edmond, Oklahoma. He publishes both a bi-monthly magazine as well as a value guide listing plastic kits ever produced. Good Luck from Mark Grossman in East Brunswick, New Jersey where the weather is irrelevant as long as the pollution keeps us warm! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: b29@ix.netcom.com Subject: Re: Normandie model I think that Ordrazz is referring to the 1:1250, that's 1:1250, models of NORMANDIE, MAURETANIA, etc. Because both Marquart (CM) and Albatros work in this scale. For some reason, I have seen people on this site repeatedly refer to 1250 scale as 250. There's a world of difference, of course. There are more different ships including liners, in 1250 scale than in any other. Several models of the NORMANDIE are available, including one of the ship as the U.S. AP LAFAYETTE. To learn more about these models and where to get them, visit the warship.simplenet site and click on THE 1250 PAGE. There are some custom model builders who also produce NORMANDIE in lager scale like 350, but the prices are quite steep, Paul Jacobs Editor THE 1250 PAGE http://warship.simplenet.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: Re: HMS Campbeltown info Hi Mike HMS Cambletown was the subject of a Conway Anatomy of the Ship (The Destroyer Cambletown by Al Ross) which is now out of print but which should give you all the information you need Chris Langtree Answer to trivia question QE2 +AD0- Queen Elizabeth the Second -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: ECammeron@aol.com Subject: Re: CV-6 Deck Markings First, the Detail & Scale book is on CVN-65, not CV-6. But check out pages 8 and 9 of Camouflage 2 Fleet Carriers from The Floating Drydock. Page 9 has a bow on shot of CV-6 leaving Pearl Harbor in 1944 with the flight deck empty of aircraft. And the write up, brief though it is, is very good. Eugene Cammeron -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: ironship@usit.net (Jon Warneke) Subject: Re: HMS Campbeltown Hi Mike, >> Next I'm looking for info on HMS Campbeltown-a Wickes class 4 stacker lend leased and used in the St. Nazaire raid. It was supposedly modified to resemble a German Mowe class torpedo boat. I've seen a couple of close up photos but not enough to really know what it looked like during the raid. << Possibly the best reference on the Campbeltown as she looked on the raid is the book "Anatomy of the Ship: Campbeltown". This book has a few pictures of her fitting out prior to the raid, and does have drawings of the modifications to her to make her look like a Mowe, as well as drawings of the USS Buchanan DD-131 (her original fit), and Campbeltown as an escort destroyer prior to her raid conversion. It's the main reference I used to do the Tom's Modelworks kit of the Campbeltown. More than likely it's out of print, but you should be able to get it easily through Inter-Library loan for a small fee. Other than this, there are only the usual photos that are found in all other references. BTW, according to this book, she was painted in Mountbatten Pink, and from the photos it was probably the dark version. Good Luck. Jon Warneke Commander Series Models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: dhjonespsm@juno.com Subject: Re: Mythical CIMARRON kit Craig Bennett writes: >> Does anyway remember a model of the Cimmaron class oil tanker of W.W.II. I don't remember the manufacturer or the scale but I saw it hanging on a wall at hobby shop perhaps 30 yrs ago. But the box was equal in size to the Revell Fire Boat FIRE FIGHTER kit. << There is no T-3 CIMARRON class kit in plastic... sorry. The following list covers all the tanker kits in plastic that I am aware of from the "good old days". Revell did a T-2 tanker kit under several names (most recently re-issued -1997- as the MISSION CAPISTRANO). The scale is approximately 1/400. I would guess this is the kit Craig remembers seeing. The box art was a camouflaged oiler - a very nice painting by John Steel. It is the same artwork that graced the recent re-issue. Heller marketed a tanker kit in their standard 1/400 scale as the SEINE (fleet oiler - kit number L750). This is one of their kits I wish they would reissue. And then there was the small coastal tanker SHELL WELDER from Frog in about 1/130 scale - now available again from a company in Eastern Europe(Chematic: Shane). This is still a very nice kit, and there is a new brass detail set available for it. Eaglewall listed a ALTMARK (plastic - 1/1200 scale) in their line - but I have never found confirmation that this kit was actually released. Does anyone have one? Lindberg issued a somewhat generic tanker kit labeled either "Oiler" or "Fleet Oiler" (depending on which box you got) which they listed as 1/520 scale. As I recall it was basically a T-2 in style, a very simplified kit, not very accurate. I don't have an example of this kit anymore - maybe someone who still has one in their collection can supply more details. The Lindberg kits have been absent from the shelves for at least 20 years. Revell's branch in Brazil issued a kit of a British Petroleum tanker - the exact ship name is unknown to me. I have not been able to obtain an example of this kit, but I suspect it was another version of their T-2 kit with local packaging and box art. Can anyone confirm this? That is the lot as far as I know - no CIMARRON, unfortunately. Daniel Jones Plastic Ship Modeler -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: Ives100@aol.com Subject: Re: Book request Hi Glenn, Don't have the book myself, but I have found that a good used and OOP book source (particularly of submarine, but Naval topics is general) is Torpedo Junction. The catalog URL is: http://www.sonic.net/~books/navy.html There is a specific OOP book list. I have dealt with the owner Rick Savel numerous times, and he is first rate, fast, and courteous. He has my highest recommendation (and I don't say that lightly!). His current list doesn't have the book you are looking for (although there are lots of destroyer books listed), but Rick has a service where you can email him desired titles, and if he comes across the book, you get notified. That's how I found my copy of Alden's Fleet Submarine in the US Navy. Good luck with your search! Tom Dougherty -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Norman Samish Subject: Re: Scale effect comment >> The Official Monogram Painting Guide to German Aircraft" recommends adding white in the following ratios: 16% for 1/32 scale, 25% for 1/48 scale, and 35% for 1/72 scale for scale effect. Applying this to 1/700 ships would have me add 350% of white to the camouflage colour. Is this correct? << I fit your numbers to a hyperbola that approximately reproduces your data and extrapolates to 84% white at 1/700. The formula is % = (-197.941 * scale + 100.0844 )/(135.9512 * scale + 1), where "%" is the percentage of white to add. Scale Actual % Pred. % 1 0 -1 1/32 16 18 1/48 25 25 1/72 35 34 1/350 72 1/700 84 1/1200 90 0 100 100 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: Norman Samish Subject: Re: Victory at sea >> When I was a kid, I watched VICTORY AT SEA, which great as it is, has a lot of the errors that P.C. complains of. That show grabbed my interest, however, and helped start a life-long love of ships and naval history. Now, I know a whole lot about Midway. I have models of all the ships that were there. I have at least a dozen books in my library about the battle, and I have learned to distinguish the errors in VICTORY that I didn't discern as a kid. This is really what we want these documentaries to do; to interest and inspire people to do their own research and investigation, to learn for themselves, and to keep alive the interest in these things for future generations. << Somebody is selling a video called "Victory at Sea Series - Vol. 1" for $25 at: http://www.mediaandmore.com/an/dbpage.pl/p/11860/ixu9373.124364 It's described as "The most famous historical war series ever made! Created from spectacular footage from both the Allied and Axis governments, this Emmy award winning series is the most comprehensive and sweeping record of the naval battles of World War II." This looks very interesting and I'm going to order it. Have you any other recommendations? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: SteveWiper@aol.com Subject: Reply to Dan Jones Once again Mr. Jones is wrong. The Classic Warships kits of any of the US DD's is a rework and upgrade of the Kobo-Hiryu kit, which means it is NOT a copy, as Jones states. People really need to be careful what they read from Plastic Ship Modeler, or hear from Jones, because often, he is human like the rest of us and makes mistakes, but also I find his opinion on subjects to be way off and negative. For instance, in an article in PSM on a review / critique of my German DD, Z-1 through 4 kit in 1/700, he states things like "the 20mm are very tiny and probably would be best replaced with plastic parts from Skywave. The reason that the guns were provided in photo-etch was to make them to scale, which the plastic ones from anybody are not. He goes on to say that this destroyer and other German DD's carried 4.7" or 5.5" guns. Wrong. They carried 5" or 5.9" guns and in this case, only 5". The British and Japanese Navies used the 4.7" and 5.5" weapons. He says that the funnels were copied from the Skywave Z-37 to 39 kit. Wrong. Part of the funnel base was from the Skywave kit, while the rest of the funnel was scratch-built. He has lots of opinions on the rest of the kit, and other kits, that he analyzes in his "Review" section that I think we must all realize are his opinions and possibly not reality. People should not just rely on one persons view on something. If a manufacturer has a kit out and you want it, but are not sure about specific details, do yourself a huge favor, get more than one opinion, and try to view the kit for yourself, you can always return it. Many people have contacted me to tell me that have never ordered any kits from my product line because of what Jones has said in his magazine. Once they had received one of my kits they were happy and wondered what Jones was thinking. Others have also stated that they thought he seemed to really try to find something wrong with my kits, more so than on other manufacturers. This may be true, there is definitely no love lost between us, probably because I tend to have a different opinion, something other than his. Basically, what I am saying is, don't let other people make decisions for you, educate yourself, make your own choices. Steve Wiper/Classic Warships -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Norman Alfred Sells Subject: FAIRMILE MTB's Hi Mike Ref your interest in Fairmile MTB's - John Lambert also wrote a definitive book on that class of boat called " The Fairmile 'D' Motor Torpedo Boat. It is one in a series titled Anatomy of the Ship, first published in 1985 by Conway Maritime Press Ltd. 24 Bride Lane, Fleet Street, London. EC4y 8DR. England (of course !) at £11.95, ISBN 0 85177 321 4 This book is ideal and well recommended to any one interested in this type of boat. It includes details of all the variations ot types, performance figures, lists of all models and weapon installations as well as other general machinery fitted. It also includes scale line drawings. Deatiled diagrams are also included. An excellant book well worth owning if not for modellers just for interest. I have no monetary gain in any way in promoting this book, just a humble 'Beat Copper' ! Weather here in UK is wet and cold after a sunny Marathon Sunday in London All The Best and good luck Norman SELLS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Suvoroff@aol.com Subject: Re: French Ironclads/Predreadnoughts Quoth Mrl Waite; >> Does anybody have any information on the colours of French naval vessels 1875-1900, the colours I have is black hull, white superstructure and yellow funnels, with natural timber decks. << I read somewhere that the upperworks were - I can't remember where I read this but I should be able to find it with a little work - "the colour of damp canvas" which I suppose would be light neutral gray. The cover of the Association des Amis des Musees de la Marine plans for Le Hoche show light gray with a blue tint, while their plans for Charlemagne show a much lighter color, perhaps white. A color postcard of Massena I have seen shows light gray also, though of course color postcards, even contemporary, may not be accurate. Now, there is a brief description of the various colors for both in the AAMM plans, the Le Hoche plans say "chamois" (which is pretty ambiguous considering the differing colors I have seen real chamois) for "Mats Inferieur", "Roofs", and "Cheminees", while the Charlemagne plans say Gris Clair, for "toutes les superstructures, chandeliers des passerelles, des hunes, tourelles et canons de 305" etc. etc. etc. The Tony Gibbons book on Battleships and Battlecruisers shows both buff and light gray for different ships, but he is probably not to be relied on; though it is not impossible he is correct either. I have never noticed any difference between the shades of the smokestacks and the superstructure in French ships of this era, and I have not heard previously about yellow funnels; what is the source for this? I do not doubt that it might be possible, but I would like to know where that comes from. I am both surprised and pleased to meet someone else in this world interested in French predreadnoughts, a truly esoteric interest. Yours, James D. Gray -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: FOP5@aol.com Subject: Re: Normandie model I have purchased a model for a follow member smml. Of the SS Normandie she is made out of balsa wood in mint condition.put out by idea company one of the wood part is mark 1935 she is about 33" long,9" ht,4"wide with plains I 'am looking at taking the plains to a copy center to be made and photo coping wood parts and save the items but get new wood to do the SS. Normandie. So If the person who was interested in the SS.Normandie ship please let me know and if I can get them done with damaging them I could let him know. Also I"m looking for models to buy of cruise ships carferries,tugs, coast guard ships,Ocean liners of the past and present.Please let me know if anyone has any of them for sale.And if they do find any information on the Andrea Doria, please let me know family of mine came of on her. I Can be reached at FOP5@aol.com Regards Carmen J. Balsama SR. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Sanartjam@aol.com Subject: BWN Furutaka Hi SMML, Has anyone seen the new Blue Water Navy 1/350 kit of the cruiser Furutaka? I'd be interested in hearing about it. Thanks, Art Nicholson -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: Sanartjam@aol.com Subject: Upcoming Mirage Kits Hi SMML, I noticed in the recent Fine Scale Modeler new kit report that Mirage is planning to come out with 1/400 kits of the Conrad and Dragon (presumably the old British D class cruisers manned by the Poles) and of the Wicher and Burza (I assume the destroyers built for Poland in France before WWII). Seems like they would open up a lot of possibilities. Does anyone know anything about these kits, like when they are really likely to come out? I can't recall the prices listed, but they seemed very inexpensive when I looked at the new kit report. Thanks, Art Nicholson -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: RCClem@aol.com Subject: Horatio Hornblower and Titanic Tonight, HBO broadcasted Titanic (3 hrs-15minutes long). At the point when one of the earlier lifeboats was being loaded, the screen flashed for a split second the face of an officer that seemed familiar. Later, after the Titanic had sunk, only one lifeboat came back to search for survivors. The actor playing the officer on that lifeboat was none other than the same actor playing Horatio Hornblower on the A&E Series, then playing simultaneously on its own channel. I failed to catch the actor's name for either effort. Who is he and does he have any other credits? I'm glad A&E plays HH so many times on Sunday nights, since I'd be really disappointed by my VCR, which plays but cannot record. So I was able to see both Titanic and HH. Roger Clemens Hinsdale, Illinois -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: Les Pickstock (Les Pickstock) Subject: Campbeltown crossthreading There's a crossthreading here between the NORMADIE thread and the CAMPBELTOWN. Oper