Subject: SMML09/05/99VOL540 Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 00:26:18 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: SS Edmund Fitzgerald - color 2: Z-26 colours 3: small scale gun barrels and MTB books 4: Re: SMML accross America 5: Re: Rapid Prototyping 6: Re: O'BANNON Camo 7: Re: O'Bannon Camouflage Help 8: SS Edmund Fitzgerald 9: Re: Edmund Fitzgerald 10: Re: O'Bannon Camoflauge Help 11: SS Edmund Fitzgerald 12: Re: Machined Main Battery Guns 13: Re: SMML across America 14: Re: SMML Across America 15: Edmond Fitzgerald 16: Beware Viking Models 17: Re: Trimming Casting blocks 18: RN boat colours -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Re: GMM 1/240 Olympia/Oregon set 2: WEM webpage update -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Kurt Van Dahm Subject: SS Edmund Fitzgerald - color The color of the hull and decks as well as the bands of red on the funnel are a good match for Badger Marine Anti-Fouling Red Oxide (#16-401) as far as I can tell from the numerous color photos I have of the Fitz. Kurt Van Dahm Westmont, IL -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Bob Pearson" Subject: Z-26 colours Greetings all, I am in the process of building the Skywave Z-37/39 Class destroyer as Z-26 as seen on page 33 of Warship Volume 1. Does anyone know if the pattern shown is symmetrical? And what are the deck colours? I have 'Destroyer' by MJ Whitley and it includes a drawing of this pattern on Z-30, but just the stbd side as well. Regards, Bob Pearson Managing Editor / Internet Modeler http;//www.internetmodeler.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: HDente@aol.com Subject: small scale gun barrels and MTB books Small scale (1/700) brass 15" gun tubes are produced by Delphis. I carry them, Pacific Front carries them, the Naval Base probably does, too. I also carry tubes in stainless steel down to .4mm. These are untapered, but look a lot more to scale, are hollow, plus they are 100% round in cross section, the biggest objection with molded gun barrels. We can be reached at: RIS 205 Maryland Ave. Paterson, NJ 07503. E-mail us at hdente@aol.com. For Bob Pearson: Costal Forces is no longer available through the publisher, Naval Institute Press. I would lend you a copy, if you wish. Al Ross has a web site, reads this page from time to time and is an alright guy. He may be willing to help if you contact him. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: MDDoremus@aol.com Subject: Re: SMML accross America Kurt, I'm interested in photos of the Barry. I'd like to build Revell's Forest Sherman as the Barry During the Cuban Missile Crises. I know she's been refitted since then but a lot of stuff didn't change. What did you get? Mark Doremus -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: MDDoremus@aol.com Subject: Re: Rapid Prototyping Folks, I've used the SLA and cast parts from SLA masters in industrial settings. The whole point of them is to reduce time and the need for highly skilled pattern makers. They are a bit costly, but they are 1-2 orders of magnitude less expensive than hard tools (in one of my cases $5,000 Vs $200,000). Yes, the parts after imaging and curing have jaggies that must be sanded out to get a smooth finish. But, this does not require skilled pattern makers. It requires the same skills most experienced model builders acquire after filling and sanding a couple of seams. Note that in 1/700 scale, the .005" step is approx. 3.5 inches on the real thing. Remember, you would use the sanded out SLA part as a master for an RTV mold similar to the ones that any of our resin manufacturers use. The master does not have to be exceptionally strong, just good enough to make a few (5?) RTV molds. The cost of large solid parts like hulls could be reduced by designing the hull as an open part, much like a molded plastic ship. Or, a process is available that would form the part as a "hollow" solid. Instead of a solid cross section, little beams would be formed from side to side and allow the majority of the volume to be hollow. From an engineering perspective, this can be done and good looking masters can be built using this process. I've had one model painted up and placed in my company's sales literature. The marketing question remains. Can this be done and produce kits at an acceptable price? I've got access to high end 3D CAD and a couple of SLA contacts. I'd be glad to help. Contact me off list at mddoremus@aol.com or mark.doremus@itron.com Mark -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: O'BANNON Camo The darkest color on O'BANNON should be Navy Blue 5-N, not Sea Blue 5-S; Sea Blue was phased out in the Atlantic Fleet by the time of Pearl Harbot (Ernie King didn't like it), and in the Pacific Fleet shortly thereafter. O'BANNON was built and painted out on the East Coast, so should have used 5-N from the beginning. The photo I have of her in Ms.12 (mod) shows too much contrast between the darkest color and the Ocean Gray 5-O for the dark color to have been 5-S. Incidentally, in Ms.12 (mod), the dapple effect carries up onto the superstructure, so the pattern goes: 5-N and 5-O dapple on the hull, 5-O and 5-H on the superstructure. The photo shows O'BANNON dappled on the superstructure. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Timothy Dike" Subject: Re: O'Bannon Camouflage Help >> Best I can tell, the O'Bannon was in Ms 12 Dapple, which I assume is still 5-S from the waterline to the main deck, then 5-O to the funnel tops, then 5-L above the funnel tops, with 20-B Deck. In that case, what color makes up the dapple camo. Note that I am not a color nut, and pretty close looks pretty good to me, particular in the smaller ship scales, but I have as yet not found what the dapple color is, save the Tamiya painting instructions. << Todd, I asked this very question here once and received all kinds of help, on and off the list. so let me try to give some of that info back. The O'Bannon wore MS. 12 during the time of its duel with the Hiei. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but the colors are; 5-H Haze Gray Topside half of the dapple 5-0 Ocean Gray Top and hull dapple 5-N Navy Blue Hull 20-B Deck Blue All horizontal surfaces The illustration on the Squadron signal DD's in action is incorrect as that is the Fletchers Ms 12 pattern. the O'Bannon wore a pattern much like the LaVallette did. There is a portside pic of the O'Bannon in this Measure on my site at: http://www.kc.net/~cadman/Models/Guadalcanal/Friday-13.html I would recommend that you get the book by Jeff Hernes "Fletcher,Gearing, and Sumner class DD's in WWII" as it shows some great detail shots of DD450. I have also found the US Navy paint chip sets by Snyder and Short Enterprises very helpful as most paint off the shelves vary a little as too actual color. I have been using the Polly S line mixed to match, with good affect. mailto:Cadman@kc.net http://www.kc.net/~cadman/ "A still sea never wrought a skillful sailor" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: tom Subject: SS Edmund Fitzgerald Bill writes: >> Hoping you folks can help, I'm building the Commanders/ Gulfstream 1/700 SS Edmund FItzgerald. << The only pictures I can find are prints or paintings Any ideas about the red used on her hull and main deck? From the early video footage (thanks Discovery Channel) it almost looks like what we in the Navy called Red Lead primer. I know her superstructures were white. Her red funnel sported a yellow stripe with the" C" in it. I don't know what color red to use. << Having misspent part of my youth in Duluth and adjacent areas I've been around a few lake freighters and would say that red lead is just about spot on as far as color. Think of rust... the red is the color of rust. All the lake freighters are red or black except for a few that specialize in portland cement or other odd cargos. The color is chosen because of the traditional cargo... iron ore or taconite pellets. Although they try to minimize airborne contamination iron dust gets all over. Get a little fog, dew or rain and then you have rust spots and streaks everywhere. I know how this works first hand... I once had my boat hauled for painting. At some point the wind must have come up while the paint was still soft. I came by a few days later and my new paint job had about a million rusting iron dust particles imbedded in it. Best regards, Tom Kremer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Dave Judy Subject: Re: Edmund Fitzgerald Bill, In my wanderings thru books on maritime subjects, I've been led to believe a brick red color for the main deck and red oxide primer for the hull might look acceptable. IMHO......as for the rest...good question! Dave Judy -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: BillBramha@aol.com Subject: Re: O'Bannon Camoflauge Help Measure 12 dapple scheme was 5-0 Ocean Gray and 5-H Haze gray. I haven't tried the Badger paints, but on my 1/350 Atlanta I used Floquil Haze Gray and ModelMaster Gunship Gray, which comes pretty close to 5-0 in that scale. Bill Bramhall -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "Bruce Burden" Subject: SS Edmund Fitzgerald >> Any ideas about the red used on her hull and main deck? << Although it has been many years since I saw her going through the locks at the Soo, the Discovery Channel footage of her launching is pretty much correct - a red oxide primer color is pretty much correct. From memory, most lakers sport either a red oxide hull or a black hull. Few (if any) of them had a brightly painted hull. Now, salties are a different story. For pointers, the Great Lakes Shipwreck Museum at Whitefish Point might be able to help (official mailing address I am sure is in Paradise, Michigan). Also, you can try the SS Valley Camp museum in Sault St. Marie, Mi. You can also try this site for modern vessels traversing the locks: http://www.crrel.usace.army.mil/ierd/soo/index.html Bruce -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Bruce Burden" Subject: Re: Machined Main Battery Guns >> barrels). US prices are around $20, or so I have heard). << Actually, $20 is right for some of the bigger guns. For prices closer to what a 1/350 BB would use, the prices are in the $7.00 range. The prices used to be $3.00 - $5.00, but then an exclusive import/distributor agreement was signed, and the prices doubled. >> Still, I think a commercial set of barrels is too expensive. << A set of commercially produced barrels should cost no more than $30.00US, I would think. However, it will depend on who distributes them. It is one of the things I want to try with my lathe, but haven't done so as yet. If you want to get a feel for what a turned barrel might look like, almost any 40mm barrel in 1/35 would work as a 16"/406mm barrel in 1/350, although it would tend to be too long. The closest you are likely to get in a hobby store would be the Jordi Rubio Soviet 45mm barrel. Bruce -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: SantMin@aol.com Subject: Re: SMML across America >> Of course, inside the museum, it gets even better. A lot of models - way too many to list, but figure just about every major class is represented. Some standouts would have to be the BB-63 in 1/48 scale(!) << Kurt, I agree, it is a fantastic museum. I made a lot of the figures that are spotted around on the 1/48 scale ship models, you most likely didn't notice. Like a group of sailors having a smoke on the fantail of a carrier or officers showing each other "how they flew it". I also make a bunch of Civil War sailors in various scales for an upcoming American Civil War Navy display. I think the museum is strong on pre-WWII ships which are hard to find and one of my favorites in the PANAY. And by the way, for those of you who do model pre-WWII I see that the Ukranian firm of ICM is listing a future release in 1/350 of the WWI German Battleships KOING and GROSSER KURFURST. Cheers, Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: SeaPhoto@aol.com Subject: Re: SMML Across America Hello Everyone! First, an addendum to my previous report on the Washington Navy Yard - one of the models there is an amazing cutaway model of a LSM, a rarely seen type. Similar in style to the Agerholm at the Naval Academy, it is well worth studying for those interested in Landing craft. Today I visited some of the museums of the Smithsonian. Of interest to modelers are the Air and Space museum, and the Museum of American History. In the Air and Space you will naturally find a lot of historical aircraft. Even this jaded ship modeler has to stop and marvel when confronted with the original Wright Flyer, the Spirit of St. Louis, The X-1, X-15, Apollo 11, Friendship 7 and many more. Warship modelers will enjoy an outstanding 1/100 scale model of the Enterprise with full airwing (I believe it was in Fine Scale Modeler some years back, if memory serves). There is a nice gallery devoted to Naval Aviation, and a World War II gallery with a BF-109 and a Zero among others. At the History museum, warship modelers might be a bit disappointed. Although the story of the navy is told fairly well through the civil war, I find that the New Navy, Steel Navy and later collections to be disappointing - A small room with a handful of models and few artifacts. Those interested in liners will be equally disappointed - other than the Leviathan, no modern (and she was post W.W.I) ship is represented in model form. A small exhibit on the SS United States lacked even a plastic model of the ultimate American ocean liner. A personal observation - I find the Smithsonian to be an awfully "PC" - they spend a lot of effort apologizing for our history rather than celebrating it. For example, the exhibit on the Internment of Americans of Japanese ancestry (not a stellar chapter in our history, I admit) is larger than the history of the US Navy. Guess you can't help that these days... While at the History museum, I checked out some of the manufacturing exhibits on the ground floor. This has nothing to do with ship models, but if you ever want to see an example of craftsmanship at its best be sure to look for the Tool Chest crafted by a gentleman named Studley - magnificent! I also took in the Natural History museum - some great gems and crystals there. Two tips if you visit the Smithsonian - parking is kind of a pain, so the hot setup is to stay in Virginia (much, much cheaper, by the way) and take the Metro in. It is clean, that line seems safe (can't speak for the others) and cheap. The second tip is to wear really good walking shoes - these are big museums scattered around the Capitol Mall, you will do a lot of hoofing! Now I am going to soak those aching feet o' mine Kurt (Still in Washington, where it can't decide if it wants to rain like the dickens are be sunny and beautiful) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "mkrumrey" Subject: Edmond Fitzgerald There is an ore carrier in Duluth open for tours, I think it is the William Obrian, anyway, if memory serves me correct, Floquil Box Car Red would be a close color. Mark Krumrey New Richmond WI -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "charles t." Subject: Beware Viking Models Just thought I'd share my dealings with this company with fellow SMMLies. I purchased one of their Alvin kits...great subject, fair kit. When I opened the kit it was missing the decals and the instruction sheet was so poorly photocopied it was unreadable. I emailed them and they did send along another photocopy and a note saying that they were printing new decals and would send them along soon. Three months later and no decals...after numerous emails and phone calls requesting just an estimated time for the arrival of the decals. Today I found out that their phone number, and their 'parent' company, has been disconnected. The kit, while an interesting subject, is really not able to be completed without the decals. Considering the price, and the fair quality of the kit...I feel ripped-off. I am so tired of the small cottage industry kits that are just not complete, or of poor quality and high price. Regardless of the obscurity of the subject, a kit that includes all the parts that are promised with decent instructions and honest customer service is the least to be expected. If anyone knows 'Dan Joplin' or the other partners of Viking Models...tell them to treat their customers fairly or remove the 'promise' of customer satisfaction that is on their website. Charles T. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Trimming Casting blocks >> What is the best way to remove resin parts mounted on casting blocks. I can never get it all off. Maybe I'm trying to go to fast....... << Andy, I bought a hand help belt sander from Micro Mark. It's small enough to fit easily in your hand so you have great control over it. With the heavy grit belt that baby goes through resin and sheet plastic like %#!!(*&^ through a goose. I originally bought it to shave down plastic on vac form A/C. Which it does in 1/10th the time it takes to do it by hand. I use it one fashion or another on every model I build. Unfortunately the thing isn't cheap. When I bought mine about 5 years back I paid $60.00 for the sander and an extra $40.00 for the speed control unit that MUST have or the sander won't work. Pretty clever huh. Hope this helps. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: J.L.Pickstock@lboro.ac.uk (Les Pickstock) Subject: RN boat colours Could anyone on the list give me a quick run-down on the colours of boats on Ark Royal (WWII). Many thanks in advance. Les Pickstock. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Loren Perry Subject: Re: GMM 1/240 Olympia/Oregon set Answer to Brad's question on the 1/240 Olympia/Oregon set: This is the same set released a little over a year ago. But because the Revell kit is about to be reissued, I've placed this notice to those who may be unaware that the brass detail set even exists. Ditto any other newly-released or newly-reissued kit in an off-scale, because the GMM sets for these odd-scale kits aren't as well known to most modelers as the sets in our more established standard scales. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Caroline Carter" Subject: WEM webpage update Hi Guys, I have updated the following: I have updated the GENERAL PRICE LISTS (plastic and resin kits, etch, books, videos etc). http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/avenue/xdt22/plist1.htm I have updated the "AIRSTRIKE 700" range of 1/700 scale aircraft http://whiteensignmodels.simplenet.com/700air/air700.htm I have updated the "NARROW SEAS 350" pages with forthcoming releases. http://whiteensignmodels.simplenet.com/narrow/narrow.htm I have just updated the pre-owned books, kits, plans and brass lists. http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/avenue/xdt22/shbooks.htm Thanks for stopping by! Caroline http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/white.ensign.models/index.htm White Ensign Models For a great build of FIVE WEM 1/700 HMS's Buttercup and Bluebell Click here! http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/bunch/flowers.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume