Subject: SMML12/05/99VOL543 Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 00:17:26 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: BB-forgot number Massachusets 2: Re: SMML Across America 3: SS Edmund Fitzgerald song 4: Re: SS Edmund Fitzgerald song 5: Re: O Class Build 6: Re: RAN Colours 7: PCE VS. MINESWEEPER 8: Re: Potemkin & Aurora 9: Re: 1/350 Fletcher 10: Letter to Peter Hall for all hands 11: Re: USS Missouri Bofor Splinter Shield 12: Re: Potemkin / Aurora kits 13: Re: Knox class. Yes! 14: Edmund FItzgerald in HO scale? 15: USS O'Bannon camouflage 16: HMS Campbeltown at St Nazaire 17: Re: HMS Gloucester 18: First Timer, looking for advice... 19: Re: SMML Across America 20: Camouflage during the Solomon Campaign 21: Re: SS Edmund Fitzgerald 22: Re: IJN Colors 23: New subscriber -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS Note from Shane: Well guys, today we signed up our 800th subscriber to SMML. Congrats to all of you who have made this such an enjoyable list. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "foeth" Subject: BB-forgot number Massachusets If I'm not mistaken, the Massachusets is in drydock at the moment. I'd like to visit the ship in July, but is she 'back on display" at that time? EJ Foeth -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Katz, Gene S" Subject: Re: SMML Across America Kurt, In NYC you might have missed my alma mater, SUNY Maritime College at Fort Schuyler, along with the T.S. Empire State. She is tied up under the Throggs Neck Bridge. Fort Schuyler is (or was) a rival to the "trade school" across the river, commonly known as KP. I think the current training ship is a former AP, possibly an MSTS/MSC vessel. I sailed on the T.S. Empire State IV, and the current one may be VI or VII. There was a hall with ship models and pictures, and a memorial entryway with photos of Fort Schuyler grads lost at sea or KIA/MIA. There used to be a DE, USS DeLong, just down the road at a USNR station. Gene Katz -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Colin Ritchie Subject: SS Edmund Fitzgerald song A big thanks to all who bothered to reply, and I hope the posting of the lyrics didn't mess up people's bandwidths too much! Once my company puts my internet access pack in place, it off to amazon.com I go, Colin Ritchie Aberdeen Where spring, came saw, and left again, Ah well ... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Goldwasser" Subject: Re: SS Edmund Fitzgerald song You can purchased the song" The wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald " on his greatest hits called Gords Gold volume #2 Dennis -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "Cooper, Mike" Subject: Re: O Class Build Hiya I've reviewd the Tamiya O in IPMS Magazine (UK) late last year - I can send details to anyone who wants it. To get a really good one requires pretty major surgery - a hull stretch and superstructure mods, plus a full weapons re-fit. IPMS USA Quarterly did a good series on the War emergencies and this will give notes. The WEM kit offers some very nice bits, but doesn't solve basic problems I can also probably fill in most general schemes with notes, but we await Alan Raven's new book and the colour chips for definitive words. Basically ignore the kit attempts at colours - the box top scheme is a very common one, in (theoretically) White, G45, B30 and G20 (Approx descriptions based on PSM matches are: G45 = neutral to dirty light grey, B30 - light but brightish grey green; G20 - medium grey green). If you can get the Ensign on War Emergencies that will give you all you need in terms of details, but lacks notes with its colour plates. Mike Cooper, Reading UK -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "Cooper, Mike" Subject: Re: RAN Colours I asked the Australian War Memorial about 1939-45 colours some time ago and they said that the RAN followed RN practice. However a. The RAN now uses what I've heard described as "French grey" which has the green tint mentioned in the reply and b. a copy sent to me of the 1942/43 painting order includes a colour - MS3B - which might also match the colour described. My impression from photos is that in the Far East at least RAN ships tended to darker shades than their RN counterparts. Any comments?? Mike Cooper, Reading UK -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Baker Subject: PCE VS. MINESWEEPER For the potential PCE modeller: The PCE and the ADMIRABLE class differed in numerous other small ways other than just the armament and presence or lack of sweep equipment. A major one that does not concern modellers, of course, is that they had different diesel main propultion engines. As to armament, JANE'S was only correct for the first few PCEs completed and then only for a very brief period. The after 3-in mount was replaced by two side-by-side tubs that were originally occupied by single 40-mm Mk 3 Bofors mounts and later by twin Mk 2 mounts with Mk 51 directors in adjacent tubs. Many of the ships by the end of the war also had a third twin 40-mm mount on the fantail, also with an associated Mk 51 director. Some PCEs were fitted to control landing craft groups and featured a tall deckhouse to starboard as PCECs, while others were completed with a longer forecastle and reduced armament to act as rescue ships and were given PCER hull numbers. You can see photos of all of the variants, plus drawings of a PCE and a PCER in Norman Friedman's U.S. NAVY SMALL COMBATANTS, published by the Naval Institute Press about 12 years ago and still very much in print. As to the fellow who in SMML today objected to buying a (very good) book at four times the cost of the kit he wanted to detail, it's a continuing disappointment to me how many modellers will spend hundreds of dollars on kits yet won't equip themselves with the necessary--and readily available--reference materials with which to build and finish the kit accurately; and for those who are financially challenged, there is the local public library, which, even if it does not have the required book, can get it via interlibrary loan--and should be more than happy to do so. End sermon. Best/Dave Baker -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: crofoot@bfm.org (Crofoot, Christopher) Subject: Re: Potemkin & Aurora I built the Potemkin from the Russian re-mold of the old Heller kit. It gives a good basis but I wouldn't tackle this kit without a bit of scratchbuilding experience, plans, and patience. I ended up replacing all the detail below the waterline, new decks, small caliber guns, splinter shields. Get GMM 1/400 naval ship photoetch too. I've seen the Aurora from the same manufacturer it's basically the same quality. I'd like to build her too, but I don't have enough patience left from Potemkin to even consider it now! Chris Crofoot -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "foeth" Subject: Re: 1/350 Fletcher There are a lot of Fletcher conversions in Schiffers booklet. Not much to base a model on, but you could make a choice. Only thing is, these post war Fletchers don't look anything like the original. If I was to convert one, I'd like the version with the two Quad Bofors mounts amidships, and some extra 20mm mounts, possibly on a square bridge version. A nice camo scheme also wouldn't hurt. You can get a set of good drawings in the Floating Drybook Fletcher Planbook for $40, and scrap the bridge yourself (a square bridge shouldn't be that hard). Just my 0.01871 Euro. EJ Foeth -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "James M. Pasquill, II" Subject: Letter to Peter Hall for all hands Dear Mr. Hall, I am writing this open letter to you in the hope that others will chime in if there is interest in the subject. Recently I purchased a set of your etchings for the Modelcraft/Frog Shell tanker. The etching is very fine and though I have not yet used it they will make a very fine model out of what would otherwise be somewhat of a toy and which will ultimately be on display in the background of my HO scale port adding a forced perspective to the scene. I also found that the etching can be used to upgrade the old Revell tug boat kit. The railings, stairs and ladders are almost a perfect match. If you wanted to you could easily slightly redo the art to match the upper deck railings and add the stairs to the pilot house sides. You could easily have an additional product to market. I am writing however because I heard that you were considering designing an etching set for the South Goodwin lightship kit currently on the market again from Revell Germany. I wish you would create such an etching. A set that included doors, railings, ladders, the crows nest railings and the window frames of the ships light, and other detail parts would be most welcome and I would buy a set immediately upon release. While I have your attention I would also like to put in a plug for etchings for the Glencoe/Ringo subchaser and the soon to be released Glencoe Schooner Atlantic. Just some thoughts. Thanks for reading. Regards, Jim Pasquill -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "James Morley" Subject: Re: USS Missouri Bofor Splinter Shield >> I lost one of the G*D D@%N'd Bofor splinter shields provided on Tamiya's 350th scale Missouri kit. That leaves 19, good for Iowa bad for Missouri. I have looked everywhere except the vacuum cleaner bag. Thought I would try begg'n here first before I grovel before the Oreck. I know there are detail kits for these but I just want one of the plain ol' Tamiya version's. Anyone out there not use they're Tamiya Bofor splinter shields? << Patrick, If you don't find anyone closer to home, I can certainly help with this. I assume you mean the Quad 40mm Bofor shields (part F3?)........ I didn't use one (I built Iowa!) and have a complete made-up 40mm mount spare. I can post it to you if you give me an address. James Morley -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Potemkin / Aurora kits Right you are. Both kits are of the old Heller release. A friend of mine has one and we looked it over pretty good and compared it to my Heller kit. Overall it's still a good and pretty accurate kit. The downside is the molds are showing their age and the fidelity of detail isn't as good as the Heller releases. It will still build into a nice kit. It will take a bit more work to get it there. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Knox class. Yes! >> A smaller subject, for those who wish to remain sane a little longer, in the shape of the well known US Knox class Frigate, once again in 1/350 scale. This will also be released later this year. Which particular ship of the class it will be I have not yet decided, but Knox or McCandless look hot tips. << Yes! Yes! I'll be looking forward to this one. Any idea of the price yet? Also, how about a 1/350 Charles F. Adams class DD? Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Lisa and Bill Wiseman Subject: Edmund FItzgerald in HO scale? Ok, who told me about the HO scale Fitzgerald? Has anybody actually seen it or is this a rumored release? My local Walthers guy hasn't heard anything about it. He is quite a Great Lakes Buff. His layout has a large waterfront area in it and he would be quite interested in the kit. We went through his 98-99 catalog for over an hour this morning and couldn't find it. I spent two hours on the Walthers web site last night and couldn't find any mention of it either. Their search engine leaves something to be desired, if you don't know how they abbreviate things your search results often come up blank.. By my mental gymnastics an HO scale Fitz would be around 7 or 7.5 feet long (just over 2 metres for you metric folks) that seems quite large. How would one go about injection molding a hull that big? Most of the large scale hulls I've seen are fiberglass like 1:1 vessels. If anybody has a product number or other info I'm rather intrigued. Large scales are very interesting to me. Thanks a bunch Doc Wiseman -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "Robert Lockie" Subject: USS O'Bannon camouflage A trawl though my references has (so far) shown up only one picture of O'Bannon in Ms12, an that is actually Ms12 Mod on the cover of the Squadron Signal book. I admit that this is a painting, so does not exactly qualify as evidence. So far I have failed to locate a photo of O'Bannon in this scheme. However, I have found a few photos of O'Bannon during building, inclining tests and fitting out in late 1942, in the Floating Drydock plan book on Fletchers. The former two show the superstructure to be a light colour (evidently grey - gray for our colonial cousins across the pond ;<)) but by the time of fitting out, a dazzle scheme was being carried. I believe this to be Ms31/6d although I have not compared it with all the design sheets. Since the ship commissioned in June 1942, it seems pretty likely that that was the first scheme she carried and that Ms12 or Ms12 Mod was not carried at all. Consequently I too would like to see any evidence that either scheme was carried. Robert Lockie Cambridge UK -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "Robert Lockie" Subject: HMS Campbeltown at St Nazaire I recall someone asking about the above recently. I have now found my collection of data on the modifications so if the enquirer would like to contact me off list I will let you know what I have. One relatively cheap source not mentioned in the original replies is the old Profile on Campbeltown - it crops up on second hand stands at shows occasionally, still at relatively reasonable prices. Robert Lockie Cambridge UK -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "Douglas Martin" Subject: Re: HMS Gloucester A thousand curses........did any UK bods see the BBC 2 program? You guessed it, I missed it..... Any reports? Douglas (No doubt it'll be repeated, sometime......) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: C740A Subject: First Timer, looking for advice... I'm a Chief Petty Officer (nearing retirement), stationed overseas in Yokosuka Japan (the battleship MIKASA is visible outside my office). I recently purchased three kits (1/700 waterline); IJN Hosho, USS Lexington and HMS Hood. I am new to the modeling scene and am looking for some advice as to which kit to start with, whether or not to add or modify details in each of these models eg; 1920 version of HMS Hood and painting techniques (decks, masts etc). thank you, Chief -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: SeaPhoto@aol.com Subject: Re: SMML Across America Hi Everyone, I am in Newport, Rhode Island, home of the Naval War College, and resting place for the Forrestal, the Saratoga, and the Iowa. I toured the Coast Guard academy museum today, small but with a lot of artifacts that tell the story of the Coast Guard and it's antecedents well. Some nice models on display there, but some are suffering from advance stages of "Lead Cancer", where cast lead fittings turn to dust. This brings to mind a very good article on the subject by the curator of Naval ship models. If you use, or have used, fittings with lead in them, you should read it: http://www.dt.navy.mil/cnsm/lead_01.html The whole site is a good read too, with some nice pics of outstanding models. The Coast Guard museum is well worth a visit if you have an interest in that service. It is on the grounds of the academy, which is carved into a hillside, with nice brick buildings and sweeping green grass lawns descending towards the Thames River. Sometimes you will find the Eagle tied up there, but she is currently on a cruise. From there I crossed the river to Groton. Unfortunately the Nautilus museum is closed this week, but I was able to go to Electric Boats company store and get some nice submarine prints for next to nothing (11 X 17 full color for less than a dollar). They have hats, clothing and a lot of other submarine memorabilia there at the shop, which is open to the public. It is located across the street from the shipyard, and they also mail order. From there, I followed the coast up to Mystic, CT. Nice old seaport there, and I found that the museum bookstore unexpectedly had a nice selection of used books for sale too. I found a copy of "Dreadnought Returns" there, the story of the 1969 reactivation of the New Jersey, a minor treasure! I continued up the coast and across the bridges to Newport, Rhode Island, and looked for the Iowa, which I really wanted to see. As the base takes up a lot of the waterfront, it was hard to find a vantage point, but I found a road that lead to the dock where she is tied up. Although a locked gate prevented entry onto the dock, there was an open area where I was able to snap a few pictures of the grand ship. She looks to be in good shape, with large boxes covering her 5" directors, and almost everything else being well sealed. She still has her tomahawk launchers too. She is tied up next CV-59 and CV-60, which appear less well cared for. Kurt Newport, Rhode Island, where it is absolutely beautiful, sunny and 69 degrees. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Vimieraa@aol.com Subject: Camouflage during the Solomon Campaign Futher on the wearing of camouflage of ships taking part in the Solomon campaign, if any ONE person can compile a halfway decent list, with references, ones that are dated, then I will gift to that man one bottle of HIGH PROOF Scotch. There is a proviso ------ that the list must be subject to peer review. I am sure that the boss can arrange something there. To reiterate; Of the US ships that took part in the Solomon Campaign, what camouflage schemes did they carry during said campaign? The truth is out there, find it. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: Dboykap@aol.com Subject: Re: SS Edmund Fitzgerald Rereading the lyrics 'bout "the main hatchway caving in" brings to mind a recent article in the Science section of the New York Times (3/16/99) on new tools yielding clues on disasters at sea. In a fairly long and detailed article, comes details on research (what I would term "nautical forsensics) into a string of lost vessels over the last two decades. The article covers a lot of ground but what I focused on was the astounding (to me) statistic citing losses of a particular type of ship, very large bulk carrriers. Apparently, per the chart accompanying the article, 177 bulk carriers have been lost since 1980, along the loss of 1465 lives. Think of it, 177 vessels, each nearly the size of an aircraft carrier, have been lost in the last 18 years. I find it staggering. The primary example cited was the loss of the Derbyshire, British flagged, in Sept. 1980. Attention has been focused on design surrounding the main hatches. Interestingly, William H. Garzke, Jr. is quoted in the article, citing success with British research into the design flaws of this class. Dan Kaplan, NYC (where we are more likely to tote out George Steinbrenner to fend off an F5 tornado touching down at Yankee stadium than Rudy Guiliani) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: Dboykap@aol.com Subject: Re: IJN Colors Well, I'll add my two cents to manufacturers' paints for IJN colors. I can recommend the following matches for Tamiya acrylics (which is all that I prefer to use). My base reference for comparison is the Snyder & Short IJN color reference chart. Allowance for scale effect is not factored in unless otherwise noted. Kure Naval Arsenal Grey: 2 parts XF-63 (German Grey) to 1 part XF-53 (Neutral Grey). Cited in Tamiya's own color chart for the rereleased Yamato/Musashi; damn if it doesn't match up exactly. Yokosuka Naval Arsenal Grey: XF-24 Dark Grey. Matches up very well. Sasebo Naval Arsenal Grey: Primarily XF-63 with a drop or two of XF-50 (Field Blue) to bring out the blue tones. Pretty good match. Maizuru Naval Arsenal Grey: XF-53 comes in closest, maybe a tad light. Here you can argue scale effect as an excuse. Deck Linoleum: No one is certain 'bout this one. XF-64 ( Red Brown) is dark and comes close to the S & S chip. I personally think the depiction is too dark. I actually use an enamel, Testor's Model Master FS 30117 (Military Brown) tinged with a drop of flat yellow. It's a little lighter, has a great flat satiny finish that comes out well in daylight. Hope it helps, Dan Kaplan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: railrax@ix.netcom.com Subject: New subscriber Hi: I am looking for information on 1/8" models (aluminum cast) of WWII/WWI 4-stack destroyers, such as the Ruben James. I have one with the name E. W. Harper cast into the hull and am trying to find information, replacement parts, etc. Any information you have would be sincerely appreciated. Lyn -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume