Subject: SMML15/05/99VOL546 Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 00:03:49 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Bismarck 2: Re: Waveline 1/700 Pittsburgh 3: USS Montan model or conversion kit? 4: Re: O'BANNON 5: Tom's Fletcher Brass 6: Re: USS O'BANNON 7: Re: Resin CA 8: Re Bismarck 9: Re: Matchbox Ariadne 10: Re: TBD salvage 11: Re: Glencoe Oregon Deck 12: Re: BB-63 paint scheme 32/22D 13: USS Missouri 14: USS Indianapolis 15: HMS Illustrious 16: Re: SMML Across America 17: H M S Tynedale 18: Re: Camouflage during the Solomon Campaign 19: Re: HR Products and Lionfish 20: 1:350 fittings 21: Re: 1st timer looking for advice 22: Re: BB63 Missouri Paint 23: Catapult lengths 24: USS Bagley 25: Replacing splinter shields, coamings etc 26: Re: HR Products and Lionfish 27: Re: PH Pano Jeffs Diorama -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: Kit Collection 2: APMA - CHALLENGE SHILED -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "foeth" Subject: Re: Bismarck >> Did the Bismarck really have the large swastika on the bow and stern? << Yes >> How do you portray those on the model? << Mask the proper area's (square), airbrush white. Mask the circle with a, well circle (Use a circle cutter to cut the masking film). Airbrush the rest red. Add swastika, either masked, or a decal. Add slight black/burned umber wash to the red, and a very light black wash to the white, so that the planking will stand out. >> Were they removable or painted right on the deck? << Painted >> At that time did the front turret not have rangefinders? << Yes, at that time there were no rangefinders on A-turret. >> Is there a good reference on the rigging? << Hmm, not really. I think you need to use the photographs. For spring 1941: Wooden decks teak colored. Steel decks dark grey. Depending on the month: turrets dark or ligth grey (Check pictures). After april (I think, not sure) wobbly pots dark grey. (Funnelcap always alluminium) Once again, try to get S Breyers Technikgeschichtliche dokumentation, or Elfrath and Herzog's Bismarck book. EJ Foeth -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "FERNANDO, YOHAN" Subject: Re: Waveline 1/700 Pittsburgh I bought the Waveline 1/700 Pittsburgh back in March but havn't started it yet- the dazzle camo can be daunting, especially on a ship with so many nooks and crannies. The model is superb and worth every penny of the $75 I payed for it. The hull casting is really something to behold in both the level of detail and fineness of molding. From experience building Waveline's New Orleans and Maryland, I expect this one to build easily- no fit problems and very minimal cleanup. The kit is very well packaged and the instructions (while only a few exploded diagrams of of the model) are more than adequate. No photoetch is included, but I there are plenty of detail sets that would be appropriate if you like to use it (I still think railings look overscale in 1/700...) Overall, the kit is excellent and once again proves Waveline is clearly the best resin kit maker in 1/700 hands down. It should be readily available by most mail order shops (Pacific Front, HobbyLink Japan, etc) as it was just recently re-released along with the Baltimore. Yohan Fernando -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Mark McKellar Subject: USS Montan model or conversion kit? Hi all, Anyone know of a model or conversion to build USS Montana? Mark outside Boston - where Pedro is 7-1! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: O'BANNON Dave: To repeat: Sea Blue (5-S) was out of favor and dropped from use in the Atlantic Fleet BEFORE Pearl Harbor, and the Pacific Fleet dropped it by June '42. O'BANNON would NOT have been in Ms.11 in late '42. What you're seeing in that photo is a very weathered Ms.21. All the USN purple-blues weathered badly, especially in the South Pacific sun. In those climes, a ship in Ms.11 that was as badly weathered (and Sea Blue weathered even more quickly than Navy Blue--that's why it got dropped) would have photographed as if she was in pre-war light gray. If you want to achieve the effect of that photo, lighten your 5-N somewhat before you paint. Then, weather with powdered pastel chalks afterward to simulate the oxidized paint layers. John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: GrafSpee34@aol.com Subject: Tom's Fletcher Brass Hi Just aquired the Tom's Modelworks Etched Brass for the 1:700 scale Fletcher and think its magnificent. I have a question about the many different main-mast radar antenna that are included: what would I need for the O'Bannon circa late 1942??? There are some little disks with cross hairs labeled "BK" radar, can I use these? Damn good piece of etching. David Krakow -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: ECammeron@aol.com Subject: Re: USS O'BANNON The Floating Drydock's Fletcher Plans Book has several photos of O'BANNON during the final phase of construction at Bath IW. The deck tread is plainly visible in the photo on page 20. Looking at the overall paint, it looks too light to be 5-N for Ms 21. Since she was destined for the Pacific, I would venture a guess that she is painted in 5-S Ms 11. The radar is probably an SC as the SA didn't go into production until late 1942 and she was already commissioned and on her way to the Pacific by then. Looking at the photo in Anthony Preston's 'Destroyers', it looks like a 1.1 rather than a twin 40. I think O'BANNON was completed before the 40's were in production. Eugene Cammeron -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: ECammeron@aol.com Subject: Re: Resin CA For a model of CA COLUMBUS, the Waveline PITTSBURGH is a much better starting point than the Waveline BALTIMORE. Besides the single A/C Crane, the bridges were modified to remove curved shapes, etc, begining with CA-72 PITTSBURGH. Same thing as was done to the CLEVELANDS begining with BILOXI. Also, GMM's original Cruiser-Destroyer Set contained PE for a BALTIMORE Class CA. Eugene Cammeron -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: The Codes Subject: Re Bismarck I made the Tamiya Bismarck several years ago..late 8o's before there was a brass set for her...If your doing her in her Baltic Camo ,she would have a medium gray hull, light gray superstruture,main turret tops carmel brown, false bow and stern cover up her boot top at the water line...pain in butt drilling all those holes for building up the railings! There are several good books out there with pictures. It is my understanding that the swatika were painted and they were covered with tarps when she was out in the atlantic...in the Baltic the Germans wanted there fly boys to know she was one of there's I used the tamiya box art, Kriegsmarine by Robert Stern, Schlachtschiff Bismarck by Waffen Arsenal to paint and detail her...have fun ,she was a beautiful warship! regards Bill Code -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Cooper, Mike" Subject: Re: Matchbox Ariadne I've got a couple of these things in various cupboards, so I empathise with anyone looking at the kit. There are good enough drawings in the Profile on the class and sketches in an old Airfix Mag. When I last started to look at one I ignored whatever was actually there and went from the drawings. WEM were advertising some Abdiel drawings in one of their lists at one time. Is the kit back on the market?? By the way (predictably) ignore its colour notes! If you haven't got the profile WEM may have one but, given a snail-mail address and much patience from your end I should be able to copy the drawings at least. Cheers Mike Cooper. (Reading UK, which was breifly cut off from S England an hour ago by a lightning hit on the railway! All we need now is a cloud the colour of blood over Northumbria and marvelous adders in Kent!) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Clappsy, Jim (DF - PCC)" Subject: Re: TBD salvage TBD SALVAGE? Hey Mike at this time no TBD are in any museums.2 more tbd were found a jaluit.but theres no word if they plain to recover them.if u need more info on TBD AT MIDWAY Check out Chris Hawkinson's web site http://www.CENTURYINTER.NET/MIDWAY. It also has wonderful colour photos of Waldrons torpedo 8 and lots more. Hope this helps, JIMC -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: LubenLarry@aol.com Subject: Re: Glencoe Oregon Deck I can't help with Glencoe's response, but I have this kit and can supply the piece needed. I'm about 90% done building one of these for a client and have one that I was going to build for me. I agree, the kit is a dog: terrible fit, extremely heavy moldings, poor detail, etc. I'd rather scratch build than do this kit again. Send me a snail mail address and you can have the part(s) My e-mail is mailto:LubenLarry@aol.com Larry Bartlett -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: Dave Judy Subject: Re: BB-63 paint scheme 32/22D Yohan, yes the book you mentioned does have that scheme..port/strbd and overhead views on page 175. If you can't find the book, I can scan that page to you. Dave Judy -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: USS Missouri Yohan There are 2 photos I know of which might fit your requirements, but both are of the starboard side. One in US Battleships in Action (Squadron/Signal P.36) and an excellent one in US Warships of World War 2 (Paul Silverstone) which shows the ship broadside on. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "FCR" Subject: USS Indianapolis Hello Everyone I am thinking to start building my USS Indianapolis (CA-35) and I would like to put it on one diorama during the Saipan landings, in June 1944. Unfortunately the poor model of the Matchbox didn't correspondent to those actions because it had the 1945 ship configuration. Now the question is what kind of important modifications did she had during the Saipan invasion. Tell me about anti-aircraft gun positions, radars, structures behind after 8' turret, lifeboats, etc. Thanks to any answers Filipe Ramires -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "FCR" Subject: HMS Illustrious Hello again I forgot to ask another thing. I have the Aoshima HMS Illustrious (WW2) but the model isn't very good and I do really need some information about camouflage and secondary AA guns, during the Taranto attack, in 1940. Thanks again Filipe Ramires -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: SeaPhoto@aol.com Subject: Re: SMML Across America Hello Again, Today, I visited Bath, Maine, and saw the yard (from a distance) where they build DDG's, including a couple of the new Flight IIA (with helo hangers). There is a bridge that crosses the river that the yard sits very near, so I walked out on it and snapped a few pictures of them, nothing to brag about, but they should prove useful. I also visited the Maine Maritime Museum which is also near Bath Iron Works. Although mostly focused on wooden ship building, there are exhibits on modern techniques, and a lot of tools, dioramas and artifacts on display. There are two very nice Gibbs and Cox models there, one of the USS De Haven (DD-727 - you might want to double check that if it is important to you, I didn't take a note on this one) It is a very nice 1/4 inch scale destroyer. Even more impressive is a 1/48 scale Corsair, a private yacht built for financier JP Morgan which was later used as an auxiliary during the war. This model is simply beautiful, built boardroom style with bright fittings. On the way south, I stopped by the Boston waterfront and toured the USS Constitution, which was under refit the last time I was in town. She is in very nice condition - an awful lot of brass on her which was mirror polished! She is only open for very structured, guided tours, much the same as H.M.S. Victory, although photography is permitted on the Constitution. The crew is very proud of the fact that she sailed under her own power recently. Although chancy, I have to say that took a lot guts, and I can only marvel at what mountains of bureaucracy some determined individuals had to battle through to achieve permission for that. More power to them, I am always glad to see things being used for their intended purpose, and not treated like Faberge eggs. Tomorrow, I will visit the Salem, and meet at least one of my fellow list members, and then I bid the Atlantic coast farewell, and begin my long journey home. Kurt -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: Vimieraa@aol.com Subject: H M S Tynedale In 1942 she was painted in Western Approaches Blue and White, but as to her paint scheme in December 1943, I am unsure of. If you come across definative data, then let us know. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: "Robert Morgan" Subject: Re: Camouflage during the Solomon Campaign >> ITS CALLED GOOD RESEARCH DO IT << Actually, being a schoolteacher and a trained reseacher, care of the US National Archives, I do extremely accurate research. In addition, if the "gentlemen" who had written the above had bothered to read my original post carefully, he would have noted that like a good researcher, I qualified my statements about not knowing precisely when O'Bannon was repainted, but that she definitely carried Measure 12 modified in 1942. I have scanned several photos from history books (hey, its what I do) and already shared them with several people who have politely asked me to send them to them. That is what research is all about - sharing information. As for the Aaron Ward, I would think that a photograph of her being repaired after the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal, and carrying Measure 12 modified, would be sufficient proof. In response to another SMML's suggestion that a camouflage listing of ships active in the Solomons campaign be compiled, I started such an endeavour last night for my own personal use, but would be more than happy to share it with others. I would ask that if someone would like to contribute, that they send me a scanned photo of the ship in question with the approximate date. I'll add it to my database, and in a few months once the information is in, I'll be happy to share it with everyone. Again, that is what researchers do - we share information. We do not snipe at each other. Finally, the last time I checked, SMML was a mail list of people interested in a hobby, and an extremely fun and rewarding one at that. I was not aware that attempting to answer another modeler's question would involve citing exact references and supplying an annotated bibliography. Were that the case, I doubt many of us would contribute. If you want to know my sources, just ask! After all, saying "please" really isn't that hard to do. Even my immature students know how to do that! Let's face it - we're here to enjoy ourselves, not to be accusatory towards each other. I won't be responding to any other posts on this topic because I don't believe in flame wars, and that isn't what this forum is for. There, I've said my peace. Do with it what you will. Robert Morgan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: Ives100@aol.com Subject: Re: HR Products and Lionfish >> HR Products Ship Fittings that looked promising: S192-62 SS Escape Hatch $0.30 S192-50 SS Periscope Assy. $2.20 S192-51 SS Cleat $0.15 S192-52 SS Hatch $0.20 S192-53 SS Capstan $0.35 << Get 3 SS Hatches (one for the conning tower), you don't need the periscope shears, Nautilus Models provides them. You need 11 cleats and 2 capstans. >> also, this fitting looks about the right size: S192-49 3 Blade Prop. 1/2" Dia. $0.55 S96-104 Three Blade Prop. 1.1" Dia. $0.85 This scales out to a more reasonable 16 feet. That still seems to big, You're right it is way too big!!! I'm not really sure though, If the Gatos had three or five bladed props. I found these five-bladed props, which scale out to 14 feet: S192-19 5 Blade Prop. 7/8" Dia. $0.85 << Two problems: 1) they're all too big for Gato/Balao props and as for 3 or 5 blades, the answer is C). None of the above. US WWII fleet subs hd 4 bladed propellers. The kit props can be used, if you thin them up. The big problem is they both are pitched to turn in the same direction. One should turn in the opposite direction to the other. Tom Dougherty Vist the SubCommittee at: http://www.wolfsong.com/SubCommittee/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Douglas Bauer Subject: 1:350 fittings Does any company produce good quality ship fittings and accessories in 1:350 scale? Looking for P/E doors, hatches, liferings, etc....maybe some white metal boat davits, ready-service lockers, winches. Doug Bauer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: Dboykap@aol.com Subject: Re: 1st timer looking for advice Welcome to club, Chief. I have not personally built any of the three kits that you've purchased but there have been numerous discussion threads on the Hood and the Lexington over the last few months. Perhaps another SMMLie will pony up specifics for you. I can offer the following general advice. Sounds like your Hood is the Tamiya offering, which is good, as Tamiya and Skywave are pretty much the benchmark manufacturers for injection kits. This means that this kit can be built up fairly accurately straight from the box. However, there is wealth of information as well aftermarket accessories such as photoetch railings and such that can really enhance your ship once you've gained some experience. There are many RN advocates and Hood fanatics among us to offer help if you ask specific questions. Not to mention White Ensign Models, which offers many fine models and accessories for Royal Navy hulls in 1/700 and 1/350, including their own Hood(s). The Lexington and the Hosho are Fujimi/Seaway kits, which don't quite compare in accuracy. Not that they are bad; after all, they were excellent (and still are the only) offerings of these two ships in 1/700 when first issued 20-25 years ago. Fujimi has never seen fit to reissue them with greater attention to accuracy and fit, so this means a little more research & work on your part to achieve accuracy. This would be especially true of the Lexington, even in the pre-war fit that the kit is offered in. The Hosho is probably going to be the easiest kit to build. If I remember correctly, she is also offered in her pre-war fit (as this version has a small island). This ship was Japan's 1st carrier. A small ship, she was a test bed for IJN aviation in the same way that the Langley was for the USN. Simple and straightforward. Primarily a training carrier throughout the war, despite some early operational sorties. You can build her straight out of the box and have a reasonably good model on your hands. It can be enhanced with photetched accessories for IJN CVs from either GMM or Tom's Model works. At the end of the day, the idea is to have fun. The amount of research, effort and creativity involved is up to you. Enjoy, Dan Kaplan, NYC -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: "Richard - Charlotte Marelius" Subject: Re: BB63 Missouri Paint Yohan: Tamiya's 1/350 kit instructions provide the measure 32/22 scheme on both sides as well as the deck plan with the Ocean Grey sections over the deck blue. It seems consistent with the few pictures in Stillwell's book, Battleship Missouri - an Illustrated History, that show her in this original scheme, though the couple of overall shots are forward and aft oblique shots, probably the same ones you've seen elsewhere. There are a couple of closer shots of the port side superstructure when she was in dry dock which generally seem to confirm the Tamiya drawings, though there are a couple of discrepancies around the bridge. I haven't seen any photos to confirm the accuracy of the starboard pattern or much of the deck, though one shot in the Stillwell book of the aft deck around the catapults is consistent with Tamiya's instructions. Not being a card carrying member of the paint police, Tamiya's instructions, and a little artistic license on the un-shown parts (just where ARE the color demarcation lines on the inboard sides of the 5"/38 turrets?) will do fine for me when this project floats to the top of my bench. If you like, you can contact me off list and I'll send you a copy via snail mail. Regards, Rick Marelius -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: Loren Perry Subject: Catapult lengths I just found what may be an error in the recent book "Japanese Cruisers of the Pacific War" by Eric Lacroix and Linton Wells II. On page 747 in the appendix on Aeronautical Equipment, the Yamato's aircraft catapults are shown as being 25.6 meters in length. This equates to about 84 feet. However, in "Anatomy of the Ship - The Battleship Yamato" by Janusz Skulski, the ship's catapult is shown as being 19,500 mm (or 19.5 meters) in length, roughly equivalent to 64 feet. And when I checked the Tamiya kits of the Yamato in both 1/700 (their latest version) and 1/350 scale, their catapults also scale out to about 64 feet. Can anyone offer an explaination for this discrepancy? Which is correct? And if the Lacroix & Wells cruiser book turns out to be this far off with a well-known subject like Yamato, are the dimensions given in the same book for other Japanese catapults unreliable? As a designer of photoetched detail sets for ship modelers, I try to cross-check as many sources as possible to ensure maximum accuracy, hence my interest in this particular case. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: "Pletscher-Lenz-Schneider" Subject: USS Bagley As far as I could see in my records, USS BAGLEY had the following paint schemes: Feb. 1942: Ms.11 Oct. 1943: Ms.31/1D May 1944: Ms.31/1D Early 1945: Ms.21 (neutral grays). I hope it helps Falk Pletscher -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: "Bob Pearson" Subject: Replacing splinter shields, coamings etc Greetings all, While replacing the out-of-scale splinter shields on my Ariadne I made use of a technique I thought I would pass on. Some were done by using a motor tool, however others were replaced by thin paper saturated with CA. This is then cut to size and CA'ed into place. . looks very scalelike in appearance now. Regards, Bob Pearson Managing Editor / Internet Modeler http://www.internetmodeler.com Visit my WW1 Aviation page http://members.xoom.com/Sopwith_5F1 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 26) From: James Corley Subject: Re: HR Products and Lionfish >> Still doing research on the Lionfish and what fittings I should buy for it. I already plan on getting the Nautilus set, but I found some inexpensive stuff at: http://www.fullfeed.com/~hracct/ship_fittings/ship_fittings_192.html HR Products Ship Fittings that looked promising: S192-62 SS Escape Hatch $0.30  S192-50 SS Periscope Assy. $2.20  S192-51 SS Cleat $0.15  S192-52 SS Hatch $0.20  S192-53 SS Capstan $0.35 << These items will dress up your sub nicely, the periscope assembly would only be neccesary if you want one stronger than resing but with a little less detail. But.... S96-104 Three Blade Prop. 1.1" Dia. $0.85  S192-19 5 Blade Prop. 7/8" Dia. $0.85  S192-49 3 Blade Prop. 1/2" Dia. $0.55 These items wont work, simply because the kit props are correct in one detail, these subs used a simple 4-blade prop. The screw is not very complex and looks much like what wouls have been found on any merchant ship in the late 30s......I guess the knew speed and cavitation werent going to be a problem driving on batteries. BTW, dont forget the 4th sub sail, the USS Icefish.....an early BALAO class. James Nautilus Models -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 27) From: ALTON007@aol.com Subject: Re: PH Pano Jeffs Diorama Jeff, I'm also make a diorama of a navel base. Its going to be 4ft by 4ft. I've gotten a lot of stuff buildings etc. off the http://www.Hobbyweb.com. Look at Skywave/Pitroad ships, Hasegawa, and Tamiya. Also I'm going to call Pacific Front to get there 1/700 docks and stuff. This is going to be my winter detail. I guess it will take me all summer to gather everything together. Good Luck......Andy -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Bill Gruner Subject: Kit Collection We just received a kit collection, none of which was advertised on our May UPDATE. We have some Revell 4-Stackers in various boxings, Revell Decatur, Airfix Great Westerns, Revell Growler, Fujimi 1/450 Haruna, a Revell/Advent Olympia, Revell Randall APA, Revell Montrose APA, and an original Frog 1/500 Exeter; also several eastern European re-mold Exeters. Please e-mail or call if interested. Phone 425-821-2564, fax 425-821-9034 Thanks, Bill Gruner Pacific Front Hobbies http://www.pacificfront.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Simon Wolff" Subject: APMA - CHALLENGE SHILED Hi you all! I think this is my first posting to SMML, okay maybe not. I wanted to let people know about the Challenge Shield Meeting taking place on the Saturday 19th June at Auburn RSL here in Sydney... as in OZstraliaa (said with a proud pommie accent). This years event is being hosted by that wonderful, fantastic doyenne of Australian model clubs, APMA (I recommend visiting the APMA web page). The event involves clubs from all over NSW and Act getting together for a friendly model competition. There will also be trade stands, demonstrations and a raffle. So if any fellow modellers are in town on that date come along and meet some 'right friendly folk'. Further info is on the APMA Webpage at: http://www.tac.com.au/~sljenkins/apma.htm. I believe the doors are open at 10.30 AM. If anybody is interested I build 'dead ships'. Such as USS Arizona and HMS Sheffield. I am currently building HMAS Voyager which mistakenly took on the bow of HMAS Melbourne.. and lost! (rather badly). BTW my connection with APMA is purely coincidental! honest! trust me! Simon -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume