Subject: SMML20/05/99VOL551 Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 00:16:17 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Haguro 2: Re: Battlefield US ship names 3: Re: USN Dazzle Camo 4: Re: Haguro. 5: Research 6: Congratulations Jim 7: LHA?? 8: Re: Original Research vs. Regurgitation 9: Gearing Class Model 10: IJN wrecks 11: AFV Club Perry 12: Men in white coats (researchers?) 13: Reading hull station diagrams 14: "Pink" cruiser 15: More on Haguro, the pink painted cruiser 16: Need Titanic Model Instructions 17: New IJN CVL 18: Re: O'BANNON 19: Painting resin/ wanted - pictures of unusual Coastal craft 20: New Tamiya Yamato kit 21: RN Destroyer photos 22: Reply to Reading Station Lines 23: Edward 1/700 USS TICONDEROGA 24: Take off platforms 25: Heller Admiral Scheer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: New Model Kit at cottage-industries.com - 11" Dahlgren Naval Gun - 1/32nd scale 2: Heller Scharnhorst 1/400 From the Naval Base 3: Web Page -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: CBNJBB62@aol.com Subject: Re: Haguro About the pink cruiser. I think it's a possibility due to light reflection on paint. For example what if the crew repainted the hull in red lead to counter rusting because they made not had the correct paint for the ship to be in. Also light on paint can cause colors depending on distance or brightness to look different. Were any search lights used? On the attack on Haguro? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Lisa and Bill Wiseman Subject: Re: Battlefield US ship names >> U.S. CV's named Lexington, we'll find that they are named after the Revolutionary War battle in the Massachusetts town of that name. << The US Navy has named many ships after Battle sites. Some of them are WWII and US Civil War, but you will find them from all eras of history. A partial listing: US Revolution: US Civil War: WWI Lexington - CV's Fredericksburg LT-1956 Beleau Wood LHA-3 Ticonderoga - CV-14 Antietam CG -54 Bunker Hill - CG-52 CV-17 Gettysburg CG-64 Yorktown CV-10 Vicksburg CG-69 Valley Forge (CV CG LPH LT) WWII Korea Tarawa LHA-1 Inchon LPH/MCS-12 Gualalcanal LPH-7 Chosin- CG-65 Coral Sea CV-43 Midway CV-41 Bataan LHD-5/ LT1088 Many Military Sealift ships and Auxilaries are named for Viet Nam era Medal of Honor Winners. I can't think of any that are named for Battles. Happy research, Doc Wiseman Hi Doc, From memory & with the help of Tom's post, here are some more: USS Pelilu LHA, USS Normandy CG, USS Guam, USS Mobile Bay?? & USS Saipan. Off course if you factor in names from the civil & independence wars of places, you'll get more. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Mark L. Shannon" Subject: Re: USN Dazzle Camo >> What is the general consensus? Is it better to paint the Ms 31 and Ms 32 type camo and variants before or after construction? During sub-assembly construction? I'm about to plunge, as it were, into the realm of dazzle camo and would like to know the input of other SMMLies as to what you have found to be the most efficient. I can see advantages and drawbacks to severals of the methods. << Consensus? Among Modelers? ... Right! Anyway, my $0.02 US is that there is no easy way to answer your question. When I am doing a ship in any kind of "dazzle" pattern (including Admiralty Disruptives and the one-off German Arctic designs), three things determine when I paint an area. 1. How easily is it accessed at various stages of construction? 2. Can I ensure accurate placement so that the camouflage will line up among the differing structures? 3. Is this an area that is going to need touchup because of detail additions at a later time, get frequent handling, or run a risk of being hit with a paintbrush/airbrush load of contrasting color by accident? I like to have at least the main deck in place and the superstructural parts in a state I can dry-fit them before I get into the hull camouflage painting. I find that plans and photos don't work well for measuring distances on these camouflages, and it is actually easier and more accurate to mark them off based on distinct markers in the structures (i.e., between scuttles j and k on the side, down to the lower leading edge of the armor belt where side color meets boottopping and up to the chocks aft of the boat davits -- or some such.) I spray the lightest color, and then mask and spray the second on the hull. Typically, after that I hand brush with a mix of masked and free-hand techniques. Some parts are not painted until they are in place on the main assembly, others are pre-painted as a sub-assembly. So in answer to your main question, I mostly paint these finishes at the sub-assembly stage. Earlier would run the risk of having to re-do it anyway because of seam eradication or mis-match of pattern, later would make parts inaccessible. Weathering is usually done at the time the parts get to the main assembly -- on a relatively completely assembled kit. Mark Shannon -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "J. London" Subject: Re: Haguro. I have to agree with those who discount her pink color scheme. I had an interesting conversation with one of the officers on Virago in 1976 in which he recounted the battle. Although it was night the target was illuminated with starshell and I am sure he would have commented on anything as bizarre as a pink ship. Mike London -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: Research I've been following the postings on research with great interest and given the 2 debates I've been involved in recently can see exactly what the problems are. When I first joined this list I requested information about USS Shangri-La for a model I was planning. This led me to the Imperial War Museum and the USS Shangri-La association and I still need more information to get an accurate representation. Good research takes a long time which is why we rely on other people's efforts. They have the inclination to research certain subjects that perhaps we don't - except when we're really interested. The IJN is a difficult subject as many of their records were destroyed deliberately after the war and much just wasn't recorded. For example, I've read the action reports of the flotilla that sank the Haguro and can't recall any of them mentioning any camouflage. The only report that does is by HMS Subtle in difficult conditions. Maybe there's something in the records of Singapore dockyards hidden away but it won't be easy to find. Maybe a crew member will remember that camouflage was applied but I bet won't be able to tell you the exact pattern and without a photo you're probably shafted. The point I am making here is that you can do all the research but you may still come up with nothing because the information isn't there (this is not an excuse for avoiding research). You will also come up with situations where choices are needed. Which type of catapults did the Yamato and Musashi carry? I go with Lacroix and Wells rather than the other sources but until someone finds the definitive answer (ie dockyard records and/or good photos) we're all to some extent guessing. My reason, psychological, the Yamato and Musashi were the biggest and newest battleships in the IJN and would have been fitted with the most up to date gadgets in all respects. I would suggest to Loren that in the event of no definitive information coming to light he includes both types of catapult and allows people to choose. Even with lots of available research and information you still come accross problems (What was the 20mm arrangement on the Shangri-La for example? The references don't give any real indication). Photos may be the definitive answer but are frequently difficult to find - remember when most of us model our ships its wartime and photography was not exactly encouraged. But there are often enough if you look hard though with some notable exceptions. One further note - I noticed a certain note of intolerence in the messages posted (though the points made were valid). Remember a lot of people have other things to do besides build models and carry out research all the time. This is what such things as books and this site are for, to provide short cuts and to share information. I post a lot to this site and all of it is available for people to borrow (just e-mail me and I'll either post or scan copies of what informtion I have and send it to you). Sometimes it is not possible to be 100% accurate and you need to make compromises (which is why every set of paint chip ever produced is useless - just a bit of controvesy thrown in for effect). But most importantly both research and model building should be enjoyable and rewarding even if you're doing it for a living. There should be no separation between modellers who do primary research and those who rely on secondary sources. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: "Jeff Herne" Subject: Congratulations Jim From: JECHAM3981@aol.comSubject: Research Jeff, >> Just a single return round. I think that if we are talking about the U.S. CV's named Lexington, we'll find that they are named after the Revolutionary War battle in the Massachusetts town of that name. << I rest my case....one man in 800 recognized the Lady Lex and her younger sister were north of the Mason-Dixon line...at any rate, how's that for cover story? You got me, Jim. Bravo Zulu. Hey Jeff, Lets be a bit fair & say that not all on the list are from the US or know a lot about US history. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: Tom Detweiler Subject: LHA?? Hi, group-- a question for the fathomlessly knowledgeable on this, one of my favorite email lists: My daughter just joined the US Navy. She will be going through Basic at Great Lakes, which sadly is the only Naval Training station left after the rape and pillage of our military by the Clintonistas of the past few years. Naturally, her Dad had a talk with her about doing research and taking lots of detail pictures of ships she sees!! I was in the Navy myself from 68-71 on a Gearing/Fram II DD (806) so am still looking for a Jim Shirley kit of any Gearing/Fram DD any of you might sell (sigh....) So, group, let me know on the list what might be needed in terms of detail photos for different current duty ships. Anyway, she has a boyfriend stationed aboard the USS Pelilu, which is an LHA. I seem to remember from my 'Nam era service that there were LHAs out in the Tonkin Gulf around us, but am not familar with them at all as to their functions, size, draft, crew, etc. -- are they merely helo platforms, or do they carry planes like larger carriers? Do they carry weapons or defensive measures? I'd like to ask the group if they know any more about these ships, and if there's a kit available anyplace, maybe I'll send him one. Thanks to all for the fascinating reading. Tom Detweiler, Rocklin CA USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Timothy Dike" Subject: Re: Original Research vs. Regurgitation >> I've gotten a few incoming rounds about yesterday's post... << Good let me send a few rounds your way ;-) >> So here's some tried and true places to start looking.... << I agree that we should all take the time to do research on our subjects, especially if it involves meeting and making contacts with veterans and like-minded individuals, this is how friendships are made. But that's why most of us our on this list in the first place. Now let me "whine" a little for all of us that don't have the luxury of being able to do all the steps you listed. I'm still recovering from the shock of finding out that US Navy ships did NOT have tan decks. Most of my ships were built 10-15 years ago, when we did not have the benefit of websites like Rob Mackie's Warship site, or resources like this list, or even some of the recent publications. I used to be able to build a ship in a week or two, now I'm still working on some after 6 months, that kinda takes some of the fun out of it for some modeler's. Fortunately I enjoy history, and searching for reference material is not really a chore for me. I'm not trying to produce contest quality models to win awards, but I do want the most accurate model that I can build. But there are those that just want to build ships and not have to become detectives, after all isn't that why we buy your books? Now on another subject, if I answer someone's question by quoting your book "Fletcher, Gearing & Sumner Class Destroyers in WWII" am I relating Original Research or just regurgitating?!?! (ooh I think I got a hit) For the record Jeff has been helpful to me in the past, as have a lot of SMML'ers and I do have your book. The close up shots of the O'Bannon were very helpful during the building process. >> Think about this...if everyone on SMML (800-ish Shane?) found a WW2 navy vet and got copies of 5 original ship photos, that's 4000 new ship photos. And judging by the diversity of this group...just think about it. It's not that tough. << That's a great idea, I've only scored one previously unpublished(?) photo so far. It's of the USS Ludlow, let me know if anyone needs a copy. It was one of those little jewels that you find when you take the time to meet and get to know some of our mostly forgotten veterans. I've already scanned it and submitted it to the Nav-Source site for all to enjoy. I just wish the families of these vets realized the value that these photo's and memorabilia have. mailto:Cadman@kc.net http://www.kc.net/~cadman/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "Sean D. Hert" Subject: Gearing Class Model Hello All- My neighbor just discovered I build models- and has asked me to build him a model of DD711, Eugene A Greene- one of the ships he served on. Can anyone recommend any good models of the Gearings? It needs to be a decent size scale, as his eyes aren't too good anymore. Thanks, Sean D. Hert Webmeister, MBG Site: http://www.netwalk.com/~popev/bg/ Ringmaster, Big Gun R/C Warship Combat Ring "The Spartans do not ask the number of the enemy, only where they are." -Agix of Sparta -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Arjun Sarup" Subject: IJN wrecks Hi, Has Ballard or anyone else located the Yamato or Musashi, and how many of the IJN ships have actually been dived upon? If one can locate a space capsule, in theory these battleships should also be found. Arjun Sarup Quatre Bornes, Mauritius. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: Donald Bridge Subject: AFV Club Perry Hi guys Sorry to be so dim but I have a question about this kit and that is which ships is it supposed to represent and why do Perry kits always come with a Pegasus. The hull numbers supplied are 1101, 1103, 1105, 1106, 1107 & 1108. It does not matter that much as I'm thinking of showing her as HMAS Adelaide, but I can't find any references to these numbers in either Conway or on DANFS. Please don't tell me to go to the Library as there isn't one with this kind of material here in Sarajevo. Thanks, Don -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: CHRIS DRAGE Subject: Men in white coats (researchers?) Hi John, >> BUT I'M GETTING THERE! John Lambert. (Who is this man in a white coat? Do I know you)? << You should, John. His name is Alan Raven! :-> Regards, Chris He tao rakau e taea te karo, tena he tao kupa kaore e taea te karo.... (Te reo Maori) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: ironship@usit.net (Jon Warneke) Subject: Reading hull station diagrams >> I've asked this question before, but I can't find the reply in my files, so I'm asking it again. I'm going to scratchbuild a hull in 1:350 for a model of the USS Salamonie....I've got the Floating Drydock plans and the hull stations, but I don't know how to transfer the numbers to the appropriate areas of the ship., e.g., the numbers "8", "8 1/2", and "9" hull stations corresponds to what frames of the hull. I hope my question is clear to someone....I got confused just writing it! I guess I'm asking, "how do I know where one frame shape changes, and another begins?" Heartfelt thanks to anyone who can give me a reasonably clear explanation. << Typically, TFD plans are set up this way. The hull stations (the drawing looking like a view down the center axis of the ship) are marked either in a sequential pattern (1,2,3,etc...) or by frame number (30,60,78,93,etc...). If they're by frame number, then it'll look like a random series of numbers. Either way, these tell the location of the frame/station along the center up-down axis of the hull. These are G-series plans, and they probably didn't come with their own set of hull lines (at least they aren't listed on the website as having hull lines). The hull lines you have are from some other source (I'll make that assumption). Here's how to compensate. The trick to this is to remember that there's still a common reference to the seperate plans, and that's the width of the main deck. On the hull station drawing, these are shown as from the centerline of the hull to the edge. Measure this length, multiply by two, then go to the plan of the hull (overhead view) and find the same length. Mark this position, and number it in accordance with the hull station drawing. Note, don't do what the idiot your talking to did once and start marking the stern measurements at the bow. It causes a problem. This is a little time consuming, but it will get everything matched up. If you have any more questions, feel free to drop a line, and I'll do what I can to answer them, or at least get you pointed in the best direction I can. Good luck with the project, and hope to hear from you soon. Jon Warneke Commander Series Models, Inc. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Frances Jones Subject: "Pink" cruiser I have also seen references to a Japanese cruiser painted "pink." Presumably it was late war, she was damaged, and repaired in a remote location, possibly Singapore or Malaya. Whatever, I'm sure the "pink" was whatever color was available, and was possibly a very light grayish brown. I've checked Dull, lightly, and haven't found the citation I want. But it's there and I'll find it and get it on to SMML later. Lamar Jones -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Frances Jones Subject: More on Haguro, the pink painted cruiser In Paul Dull's book The Defeat Of The Imperial Japanese Navy, page 333, Haguro is described as "the pink painted cruiser." But I have seen, somewhere, other references to the peculiar paint job. I'll keep on the search. Lamar Jones -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: LYRAD108@aol.com Subject: Need Titanic Model Instructions Hi Everyone, I hope your happy I'll be soon working on a model that actually's half decent. The 1:350 Titanic. But I lost the instructions about a week and a half ago. I can't seem to find them anywhere either. Can anyone scan them and send to me through E-mail? Thanks, it's very important. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: Dboykap@aol.com Subject: New IJN CVL Even though there's probably more to be debated on the Haguro, not to mention research disciplines, I'm moving on to the newest topic. Upon opening my new copy of the July Fine Scale Modler, inside the front cover, I perused the listing of new releases from Hasegawa as carried by the distributor, Marco Polo Imports. Apparently, we can plan on a summer (can't remember now if it said July or August) release of the IJN CVL Zuiho in 1/700 with new tooling. Kit # 43216. Went to the importers webpage, http://www.marcopoloimport.com, and there's a blurb under new Hasegawa releases with those details. Life is good. Dan Kaplan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: John Snyder Subject: Re: O'BANNON Dave: For a good--if somewhat dated--read on O'BANNON, look for a copy of Horan, James D., _Action Tonight: The Story of the American Destroyer O"BANNON in the Pacific_, New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1945. And CHEVALIER was not lost on 10 July 1943, but rather on the night of 6-7 October 1943, at the Battle of Vella Lavella. After taking a Japanese "Long Lance" AND being rammed by O'BANNON, she was finally sunk by torpedoes from LAVALETTE, losing one officer and 53 enlisted. I had a cousin there, aboard SELFRIDGE when she lost her bows to another "Long Lance." John Snyder Snyder & Short Enterprises The Paint Guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: Minadmiral@aol.com Subject: Painting resin/ wanted - pictures of unusual Coastal craft Hi; Thanks for the casting site URL. I have just recieved 6 cast resin 1:600 coastal craft. I`m used to cast white metal. I wash and prime white metal ships. Do you wash and prime resin castings? These are for wargaming so I will be overcoating with clear flat when I`m done painting. I mount them on basswood bases but some people just have to touch things. Does anyone know of any sources of books or photos of non standard PT/MTB/Schnellboot modifications? How about extemporised small warships? For example WWII Adriatic and Aegan coastal forces included armed tugs, schooners, caiques (sp?), and such. Flak lighters and such craft are also of interest. Interested in ALL WWII theaters. Need photos for modelmaking and wargaming. Thanks Chuck Duggie Bet I have more ship models than anyone here. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Robert & Rose Brown Subject: New Tamiya Yamato kit Has anyone built the new re-tooled Yamato? I saw a review somewheres that wasn't too favorable as regards accuracy. I know the quarterdeck area is quite different than the original kit and it appears different than the drawings in Skulzski's book. Is this kit accurate and worth buying? Note from Shane: Also, how can you tell the difference between the old kit box from the new kit box. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: Robert & Rose Brown Subject: RN Destroyer photos Does anyone have photos of the following RN WWII Destroyers taken during the war, or as built? HMS Jaguar HMS Janus HMS Juno HMS Kandahar HMS Khartoum HMS Kimberley HMS Whirlwind HMS Zealous I'm also looking for photos or any information regarding camouflage schemes of HMS Saumerez, HMS Venus, HMS Verulam, HMS Vigilant, and HMS Virago at the time of the Haguro action. I have a photo of HMS Venus with a tripod mast. Was this replaced by the time of the Haguro action? I forgot who was building the Skywave O class destroyer, but I have a copy of the Ensign book on the O-Z classes that I can send relevant information from if you are interested.... Thanks in advance Hi Robert, I'm shocked, nay dismayed, that you forgot that it was I, who's building the O class DD ;->>. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: BEN8800@aol.com (by way of Greg Lee) Subject: Reply to Reading Station Lines The stations could be actual ship frames or most likely station lines. Ship length divided into a number of equal frames. The profile of your plan must show the locations of the lines. If not the the sections don't do you much good. However, if you have say 9 sections, chances are the length of the ship is divided into 10 equal parts. 0 would be the forward perpendicular and 10 the after perpendicular. 1/2 would be a half section. These are often found at the bow and stern where the shape of the hull changes rapidly. Half stations aid in developing the waterlines and buttock lines. You might also see a -1/2 station, which say is a station forward of the forward perpendicular. Ben Lankford -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: Gary Au (by way of Greg Lee) Subject: Edward 1/700 USS TICONDEROGA Hi, Did anyone know the content of the 1/700 Edward(Eduard!!: Shane) USS TICONDEROGA photoetching detail set for the DML or Revell kit. Especially, does this set include the main mast. What is the difference between those from Flagship or GMM. Gary, -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: BEN8800@aol.com (by way of Greg Lee) Subject: Take off platforms I have been reading the squadron/signal publication on Nieuport fighters of WW1. In it for the Nieuport 28 it notes that the Navy used 12 Nieuports and they took off from a platform built over the forward gun turrets of 8 warships. The book shows a photo of a Nieuport sitting on such a platform on the USS Oklahoma (BB-37). Interesting that planes took off but had to land ashore but also were fitted with flotation devices so they could land in the water near the ship and be rescued. What a way to go. Anyone familiar with these platforms? Know of any other WW1 planes that were used? Ben Lankford -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: "Peter Mispelkamp" Subject: Heller Admiral Scheer Just a few quick comments. 1. The photo in Breyer & Koop certainly indicates that the 280mm turret tops were painted a different colour. The contrast - or lack of it - seems to rule out dark gray or red (which usually appears black in B&W photos. Best guess a light to medium colour - yellow, or possibly a medium gray. Also, the Scheer may have been copying the RN's strategy of trying to match their turret tops to that of the KM. Also, since the Scheer was meeting some German supply ships, it is possible that her commander painted the turret tops to aid the raider and supply ship in identifying his ship right away. 2. The Kit: Overall, the kit is excellent, and with the addition of a few photo-etch updates will be a magnificant addition to any collection. Note that the Heller kit has the post 1941 funnel cap, but the 1940-41 funnel ring. Consult a good source like Breyer's Battleships & Battlecruisers. Also, the Scheer carried at least 12 20mm singles during her cruise. The two new mounts appear to have been added to the foreword 280mm turret top , and the second on the big bridge platform below the searchlight. Also, in late 1940, she did not carry the radar antena on the rear platform - if you add this feature it will interfere slightly with the positioning of the catapult and Ar 196. Hope you enjoy the kit . Peter K. H. Mispelkamp -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "John Harloe" Subject: New Model Kit at cottage-industries.com - 11" Dahlgren Naval Gun - 1/32nd scale cottage-industries.com announces a new model kit made by Cottage Industry Models Ltd of Charleston, South Carolina. As part of the "Engines of Siege" collection, we proudly announce an 11" Dahlgren Naval Gun on a naval mount. The kit is a resin kit in 1/32nd scale and compliments our 13" Seacoast Mortar and 9" Parrott Rifle Gun ("The Swamp Angel"). The Dahlgren gun is modeled after the two guns removed by Confederate engineers at night from the wreck of the Union Ironclad "Keokuk". Once captured they were the most powerful guns in the Confederate arsenal protecting the city from the Union siege. One of the twin guns remains on display today on The Battery in Charleston. Like our 13" Seacoast Mortar, it is from that gun's exact measurements that we used as a prototype to model from. Shipments of the Dahlgren will be possible early next week. Other model kits upcoming in the near future will be the Confederate Ironclad "Palmetto State". John Harloe Charleston Distributors http://www.cottage-industries.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: "Shaya Novak" Subject: Heller Scharnhorst 1/400 From the Naval Base Pre-Release Sale Special Heller has released the 1/400 Scharnhorst supply is going quickly. Order now for this Heller ReleaseTo purchase this fine kit goto: http://www.modelshipbuilding.com A501 Ch. de Gaul New Fr. Carrier 1/400fh 31.95 soooonnn! DC302 Scharnhorst WWII Hvy Cruiser 1/400 31.95 shipping 6.00 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Robert Weilacher Subject: Web Page I have started a fledgling web page showing some of my ship models. Please check it out if you are interested. Helpful critique is very welcome. http://rmwhmw.home.mindspring.com/Index.html Note the link to the Fletcher Class Destroyer does not contain a picture like it should. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume