Subject: SMML21/05/99VOL552 Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 23:34:14 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: Re: Men in White Coats (Researchers) 2: LHA's 3: Re: Research 4: Re: Gearing Class Model 5: Re: Haguro 6: Re: Take off platforms and Nieuport 28s 7: Original Research vs. Regurgitation 8: British Destroyers 9: Re: AFV Club Perry 10: Battle Names & LHA 11: Re: New Yamato tooling 12: Research and stuff 13: Re: Reply to Reading Station Lines 14: Directors for 40mm mounts 15: Extemporised small warships 16: Re: Research (Admirable class Minehunters) 17: IJN CV Unryu's aircraft complement colors 18: LHA 19: Ship Names 20: Re: Eduard 1/700 USS TICONDEROGA 21: AFV CLUB PERRYS 22: H.M.S. Gloucester 23: Re: AFV Club Perry 24: Re: New Tamiya Yamato kit 25: Paint removal 26: Re: Research comment 27: Re: Gearing model 28: Re: Yamato found. 29: 1/700 Hasegawa Zuiho 30: IJN wrecks 31: Re: Haguro & Ship names -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD INDEX 1: New PE from Flagship -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: Growlrr@aol.com Subject: Re: Men in White Coats (Researchers) I'm sorry Chris - I need to make one minor correction - Alan Raven is not one of the men in white coats - He can however make you look forward to their visits.... The best shots are always the cheap ones :o) Glenn -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Lisa and Bill Wiseman Subject: LHA's Tom, LHA(Landing ship Helo Assault) Amphibious Assault Ships of the "Tarawa Class" includes: Tarawa -1 Saipan-2 Belleau Wood-3 Nassau -4 Pelelieu-5. Displacement: ~ 39,000 tons loaded Length: 777' Waterline / 833' LOA Beam: 106' Draft: 26' Crew: ~1060 (60 Officers 1000 enlisted) Troops: 1700 Aircraft : 30 CH -46 Sea Knights & CH -53 Sea Stallions Helo 6 AV-8B Harrier STOVL Elevators: 2 (one deck edge and one stern) Propulsion: 2 Steam Turbines Armament: Missles: 2 - 8 Tube Sea Sparrows & 2-21 Tube RAM mk 49 Launchers Guns: 2- 5 in. 54 2-20mm mk 47 2-20mm Phalanx CIWS 8- 12.7 mm Machine guns Their mission is to deploy Marines using Helos and provide air support for the landing with the Harriers. Most times there are at least three LHAs under way around the globe ready to deploy their Marines. I haven't seen an LHA kit recently. I seem to vaguely remember Revell issuing one 10 or 15 years ago. I don't remember if it was an LHA or an LHD. It might have been the Tarawa (?). I went through Boot at San Diego and Hospital Corps School at Great Lakes. I later worked Recruit Clinic at Great Lakes. My father served on an FRAM II Gearing in the mid 60's (Agerholm DD-826). I scratch built him one for Christmas several years ago. Regards, Doc Wiseman -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: Vincent McCullough Subject: Re: Research I've been watching this discussion with interest, and it appears that there is a tendency to divide modelers between researchers and non-researchers. While I agree that this division exists, I don't believe that it exists HERE. To me non- researchers are people like I as as a kid: you buy a model, glue it together and paint it the way the directions tell you to and put it on a shelf, then move on to the next model. Quick, painless and enjoyable, but not necessarilly accurate. The very fact that all of you are members of this list indicates that you do NOT fit into this category. Therefore, you are researchers. You're trying to learn more about how the ships you are modeling actually looked, and not taking to picture on the box cover for granted. It's just a matter of degree. As several people have pointed out, not everyone has the time (or the money, in come cases) to go out to the archives, maritime museums, museum ships, association meetings, etc, to collect primary source information. But that doesn't mean that these people are not researchers. They are doing the research using the best resources that they can reasonably obtain (including, shudder, smellies like us) to make their models better and more accurate. Later, perhaps, this quest will lead them to search for primary source info. But for now, their research attempts are no less valid than those of people in white gloves flipping through archival plans. One characteristic of researchers is that they share information with one another. Maybe not all of it (the economic incentives to keep some material quiet until it can be published or used to produce a product are strong), but if they are going to make ANY progress, they need to share with one another. That, to me, is what SMML is all about. BTW, while we're talking bout the guys with white gloves, let me put in a plug for the Nautical Research Guild. A lot of you have heard about it, and many of you probably think that it's a white glove/white coat/academic bunch. Its not. While we do have our share of professors and "professional" researchers (like SMML does), it is LARGELY a group devoted to building more historically accurate ship models. So if you're looking for either research material or construction supplies, you might check out the NRG's web page at: http://www.naut-res-guild.org. And anyone building any of those "Flower-things" things should check out Roger Cole's four part opus on Flowers, which appeared in the last four issues Nautical Research Journal. And, by all means, become a member if you're so inclined. And now, back to modelling. Vince McCullough NRG Webmaster Chantilly, Virginia USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: "Sheridan, John" Subject: Re: Gearing Class Model >> My neighbor just discovered I build models- and has asked me to build him a model of DD711, Eugene A Greene- one of the ships he served on. Can anyone recommend any good models of the Gearings? It needs to be a decent size scale, as his eyes aren't too good anymore. << Blue Water Navy makes a really nice 1/350th Scale USN Gearing Class Destroyer. John Sheridan What I do to Spammers: http://microscale.com/images/N2.jpg I am not a Member of the Lumber Cartel (tinlc) and I am not Unit #631 Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! http://www.cauce.org Support the Ban of Dihydrogen Monoxide! http://www.cis.udel.edu/~way/DMRD/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) Sender: "Jon Parshall" Subject: Re: Haguro Regarding Haguro's paint scheme, I just sent an email to a number of my IJN associates, including Linton Wells II. Hopefully we will be able to turn up something on this issue. Jon Parshall Imperial Japanese Navy Homepage http://www.skypoint.com/members/jbp/kaigun.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: Rick Heinbaugh Subject: Re: Take off platforms and Nieuport 28s Not original research, but as a sidenote, I heard that those N.28s are in the landfill below the tollbooths at the western end of San Diego's Coronado Bay Bridge, just outside Naval Air Station North Island. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Jeff Herne" Subject: Original Research vs. Regurgitation Geez, Anybody got feathers for this tar??? Shane, I was generalizing when I said 800+ and only one recognized Lexington...I went to grade school at building called Flanders, and the 'Battle of Flanders Fields" was when we ganged up on the private school across the street....I'm not from France, nor am I a WW1 history buff, but come on... Tim, If you're quoting something from my book and using it as an end-all, then it's regurgitation(I think I've got the range...) A good researcher questions everything, unless the photo answers your question without reservation. Insofar as whining is concerned, it's a double edged sword. You can whine about how you don't want to spend all your time researching a model, or you can whine after it's done and your ship is inaccurate. In an ideal world, everyone builds ships in Ms 21 or overall Haze Gray, and has builder's plans of the subject they're modeling. Point is: research is fun, it's discovering stuff that's been hidden from view for years. It's almost the same thing as Bob Ballard is doing, except he's going after the real McCoy...if you'd rather model for fun, then go buy all the books and use them, that's what they're there for. Enjoy yourself, glue your fingers together... If you want to do more than just build a model, if you want the knowledge, the history behind your subject, if you want to be able to sit down over a scotch with the likes of Alan Raven or Dave Baker and talk ships, you'd better be able to come up with more than a picture from a Squadron Signal book. How far you choose to go is your choice. It may come across as being snobbish, but guys, this stuff is out there, it's online, it's at your library, your veteran's clubs, your neighbor's attic or basement. Just get off your duff and ask around. SMML and Warship are excellent resources for ship modelers, there are lots of people who have lots of knowledge in specific areas. And I think we as a group do a pretty good job in sharing that info. Being an SMML subscriber does not obligate you to provide the masses with data, but it would be nice, wouldn't it, if everyone took the time to look around and see what kind of original stuff they can come with? Point: I found out TODAY, that one of my volunteers was aboard both the USS Savannah and USS Vicksburg in WW2. He was aboard Savannah when she was hit with the Fritz. I've worked with him for almost a year, and found out TODAY his best friend was the ship's photographer aboard the Vicksburg, and he has lots of stuff on Savannah. 5 photo albums of stuff...and I stumbled onto it like a drunk on a curb. Pure dumb luck...anyway, I'm going to post some of his pics on the SMML site soon. I hope it acts as a motivator for you guys to go out and chase this stuff down. Glenn, you couldn't think of anything more dignified than "subtle as a kick to the groin?" Good grief.... That's my banter today... Jeff -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: British Destroyers Robert I have a photo of Zealous (see Warships of World War II by Lenton and Colledge). I also have photos of Virago and Venus in the standard BPF colours they wore at the time. The photo of Venus also shows her with a lattice mast which she carried at that time. Contact me off line if you want scans of these. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: John Burch Subject: Re: AFV Club Perry >> Sorry to be so dim but I have a question about this kit and that is which ships is it supposed to represent and why do Perry kits always come with a Pegasus. The hull numbers supplied are 1101, 1103, 1105, 1106, 1107 & 1108. It does not matter that much as I'm thinking of showing her as HMAS Adelaide, but I can't find any references to these numbers in either Conway or on DANFS. Please don't tell me to go to the Library as there isn't one with this kind of material here in Sarajevo. << The AFV kit represents the Republic of China (Taiwan) Navy PFG 2 Class ships. The PFG 2 Class was license built in Taiwan from Gibbs & Cox plans of the Fourth Flight USN FFGs. However the ROCN made some additions: 1) automatic, twin 40 mm gun mounts in the waist, port and starboard, and; 2) a domestically produced anti ship missile which is mounted in two, four cell launcher/containers aft of the pilot house (these have square cross sections, unlike Harpoon, which has circular cross sections). Other changes were made to the Combat System, but these don't show up in a model (although I did produce a professional 1/48th scale model of CIC and associated spaces when I worked on the Project). You could omit these items (I assume they are provided) and build the kit as HMAS Adelaide, and use the 01 from the 1101 decal to represent Adelaide's hull number. I suspect that decals specifically for the RAN FFGs are not included. I haven't seen this kit, but I was aware of its existence. Does anyone have any experience with this kit? Is it a good kit? Is it a rework of the original Skywave FFG? The inclusion of the PHM tends to indicate that the kit is a copy of the Skywave kit. Decals should include the ROC National Flag and insignia for the helo. John Burch Gaithersburg, Maryland, USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "MAJ RICHARD J VANDAMME_JR" Subject: Battle Names & LHA The Ticonderoga class cruisers are all named after battles except for the Thomas S. Gates. One is from Viet-nam, USS Hue City. LHA 5, USS Peleliu was originally set to be named Da Nang but it was changed. LHAs are amphibious assault ships. They carry Harries and helos for the Marines. They also have a well deck to launch landing craft and amtracs. The weapons are 2 Phalanx and 2 5/54. This is a big Marine delivery system. Major Rich -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "FERNANDO, YOHAN" Subject: Re: New Yamato tooling The new Yamato kit from Tamiya which came out last summer is a big improvement over the original. I had my doubts as to how much better it was to the old one when I heard it was being released, but once you see the kit, you'll be pleased. Not only is there alot more detail, the forecastle and bow area have been 'corrected' supposedly to account for recent research (which was done after Skulski's book). The 18.1" and 6" guns and turrets are really nice, especially the slightly flared ends on the barrels. Overall, it was a great value for the $30 I paid. You can tell the new kit from the old kit by the box art (for both Yamato and Musashi). Check out HobbyLink Japan's listings on these kits to see the box art as well as some pictures. Yohan Fernando Thanks Yohan. - Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: BSteinIPMS@aol.com Subject: Research and stuff Jeff Hearne makes a cogent argument for serious research, and I agree with many of his sentiments. I also agree with the many less-serious researchers amongst us who use secondary sources. My position is that there is room for both types, and you can actually be both yourself, rather than one or the other, without really being aware of it. Case in point: in 1995 I was in Boston and went on board the USS CASSIN YOUNG, DD 793. This is one of the three remaining FLETCHER class DDs extant and is administered by the U.S. Park Service. Whilst composing a close-up photo of a fire fighting station on a deckhouse bulkhead, I heard a voice behind me ask "Now why would anyone want a photo of just that?" I identified myself as a member of the Nautical Research Guild and a model ship builder who was preparing to spend several years and several thousand hours building a 1/192 model of a sister ship, the USS KIDD, DD 661. The voice belonged to one Sumner Wheeler, a volunteer member of the ship's company and a former crew member. When, after several more questions posed to me caused him to realize my serious intent, he hauled out a mammoth ring of keys and proceeded to open up the ship to me and my camera. He also sent me a very large packet of period black & white prints from WW II of which only a few have appeared in publications. This was a serendipitous and invaluable windfall. I had quite a number of books on FLETCHERS, including Harmon's book on the CASSIN YOUNG, all secondary, but now I came into an unexpected primary source. The lesson here is, I'd guess, that when visiting memorialized ships you might make polite and discreet enquiries regarding any additional material which might be made available to you. Case #2: I am a member of the Louisiana Naval War Memorial (USS KIDD), located in Baton Rouge (http://www.premier.net/~uss_kidd/home.html), and as such I receive a quarterly 8-page newsletter, KIDD'S COMPASS, which is filled with photos, facts, contacts, addresses, naval organizations, veterans groups, reunions, and so on. Much of the KIDD's upkeep is funded by grants from that fine organization, the Tin Can Sailors, who can put you in touch with just about anything you'd desire regarding U.S. destroyers. Even though I have over 35 reference books on destroyers, plans from the Floating Drydock made from the original builder's Navy blueprints, many photos of the KIDD thanks to Kurt Greiner of SeaPhoto (Thanks, Kurt!), I was unable to pin down many details from these secondary sources, especially the strakes of hull plating which I wanted to duplicate on my basswood model. None of the museums or archives I contacted had a hull expansion diagram, but Tim Rizzuto, Ship's Curator of the KIDD, mailed me a 12 foot long plan of the framing and plating diagram. Yep, it was an original and he trusted me with it. (!!) I'd guess the lesson here is, again, ask, and If you use primary or secondary research material, or a combination of both, I, for one, don't care. I'd just like to know that you made your best effort on your model you were capable of, and above all, did you have FUN doing it? researchingly yours, Bob Steinbrunn Minneapolis NRG, LNWM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: ironship@usit.net (Jon Warneke) Subject: Re: Reply to Reading Station Lines Hi Ben, and everyone else, >> The stations could be actual ship frames or most likely station lines. Ship length divided into a number of equal frames. The profile of your plan must show the locations of the lines. If not the the sections don't do you much good. However, if you have say 9 sections, chances are the length of the ship is divided into 10 equal parts. 0 would be the forward perpendicular and 10 the after perpendicular. 1/2 would be a half section. These are often found at the bow and stern where the shape of the hull changes rapidly. Half stations aid in developing the waterlines and buttock lines. You might also see a -1/2 station, which say is a station forward of the forward perpendicular. << Not necessarily. Stations are not always divided equally along the length of the hull. Most Taubman Plan Service plans are, but a lot of The Floating Drydock set are not. A good example is the set the provide for the USS Pittsburgh by Alan Chesney. The stations for the first 100 feet or so are measured in equal segments, then the midships section has different spacing, then the aft 100 feet or so go back to the first set of spacings. Also, if the plans are not marked in sequential staions, but rather by frame number, then the spacing is really bizzzare since the frames won't be drawn in equal increments (i.e. frame 8, 16, 22, 37, 49, 72, etc.). The two safest rules to remember in framing a hull from scratch are these. One, measure the plans and determine the scale yourself (most plans I have are 1/189 scale rather than 1/192 scale), and two, match the tops of your sections to width of their supposed location on the main deck. Sometimes stations will be located at the frame fore or aft of what the plans say. It's the old addage, measure twice, cut once. Jon Warneke Commander Series Models, Inc. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: "Robert Lockie" Subject: Directors for 40mm mounts The following is summarised from Al Ross's 'The Sullivans' in the Anatomy series (OK, it is not a primary source, but at least if it is quoted, and you happen to know the source is dud, you can ignore it - although the author in this case is well-respected): The Mk51 used a Mk14 gunsight, which was a lead computing device fitted with gyroscopes which allowed lead angle and elevation to the target to be calculated. As the sight was moved in elevation or bearing, two mirrors moved to displace the sighting axis (indicated by a luminous cross) from the bore axis (indicated by an illuminated reticle) so as to show the correction required. The Mk 51 was able to control the 40mm mount automatically by the operator moving the director head using the attached handlebars (and was later adapted to work 3" and 5" mounts for short range fire), such that 'all' the crew had to do was load the ammunition (up to 40 clips per barrel per minute) to keep it working. It could, of course, be fired by the director as well from the Mk51. The Mk14 gunsight was apparently a complex affair which, the curator of the USS Kidd advised me in 1997 he had been told by several former sailors, was not highly regarded on the 20mm at least, it being easier to 'walk' the tracers into the target. Hope this is some use. Robert Lockie Cambridge UK -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: "Robert Lockie" Subject: Extemporised small warships There are several photos of VP-boote and other coastal craft, caiques etc. in Paul Beaver's book 'E-boats and Coastal Craft', published by Patrick Stephens. It is full of Bundesarchiv photographs (with negative numbers -why do all books not include them? - although Bundesarchiv will not supply copies to the public). I am fairly sure it is out of print now but I do see copies in the second hand market over here and the prices are not unreasonable (under 10 sterling). Harald Fock's 'Fast Fighting Boats' also has a pretty good account of the work done on S-boote armament, including the use of the 2cm vierling (without which no wargamer would wish to be...). Robert Lockie Cambridge UK -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "David Hathaway" Subject: Re: Research (Admirable class Minehunters) John, Can't help you with your research but there is a site: http://www.digitalnavy.com - I think but I would have to check) that has a free downloadable 1:250 paper/card model of an Admiral class minehunter. Not exactly museum quality I know but would be a diversion! Regards David -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "John Noory" Subject: IJN CV Unryu's aircraft complement colors I'm trying to pin down the paint scheme for Air Group 601 (II) assigned to the Unryu on her only voyage. Were the a/c all painted the standard late war dk green upper surfaces and grey lower surfaces? Would the Hinomaru's have the white outline or not? Aoshima's kit has Jills, Judys, Zeke 52s and Vals. I'm omitting the Vals because none of my sources indicate they were assigned to the 601st. Thanks for any tips, John Noory -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: "mkrumrey" Subject: LHA In response to Tom Detweiler. LHA stands for Landing Helicopter Assault. During Viet Nam, the Navy used LPH's, LSD's, and LPD's. The LHA was used during the tail end of Viet Nam if I remember correctly. I was on the USS Beleau Wood LHA-3, for two weeks during and exercise in Korea. The LHA can land and recover Helicopters, and Harriers. It has no arresting gear, therefore cannot recover any of the fast movers. The hanger deck is not as large as it appears on the ship, as there are ramps for vehicle moving. There is also a well deck which, when the stern gate is dropped, is flooded and the AMTRAC's or LCAAC's can be launced in concert with the air lift of the Landing Force. No more going over the side on rope netting. They are about the size and displacement of an Essex Class Carrier, give or take a few feet and tons. The LHA's are no longer being built, instead the LHD is the latest and greatest big deck "Gator" having a larger flight deck. They are protected only by the CIWS. Some LHA's do have the 5" automatic that the Aegis CRuisers, and Spruance and Arleigh Burkes have. DML Dragon does make a kit of a 1/700 LHA, and Revell makes a kit in 1/720. I think the DML Dragon is a far better kit. With 1/700 PE Brass set, you can have a pretty decent looking model. Mark Krumrey New Richmond WI. Where Ark building is becoming a topic of many serious conversations. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: Ed Grune Subject: Ship Names >> From memory & with the help of Tom's post, here are some more: USS Pelilu LHA, USS Normandy CG, USS Guam, USS Mobile Bay?? & USS Saipan. Off course if you factor in names from the civil & independence wars of places, you'll get more. Shane << Hey Shane: Here the Guam (CB-2) would have been named for US territories. The Alaska (CB-1) was also a territory until it was admitted to the Union in the late 50's. The third, uncompleted member of that class was the Hawaii, also a territory. The US Naval Historical Center has a section on naming US ships at: http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq63-1.htm. Ed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Rick Heinbaugh Subject: Re: Eduard 1/700 USS TICONDEROGA >> Did anyone know the content of the 1/700 Edward USS TICONDEROGA photoetching detail set for the DML or Revell kit. Especially, does this set include the main mast. What is the difference between those from Flagship or GMM. << Gary, I am holding an Eduard set copyright 1998 (produced recently, I think), a Flagship set copyright 1994 (which may have since been updated, I don't know) or so and an old GMM set, not the updated set. Eduard and Flagship make double-etched sheets, which means the basic sheet is heavier than GMM (Eduard: .007", Flagship: ~.0055" & GMM ~.0035" thickness). These thicker ones are more difficult to ruin than GMM (or Tom's Modelworks, who also uses thinner brass stock, but doesn't have a set for CG-47 class.) The thicker sets may be preferable for a beginner, but I think the finer sheets feel more "to-scale" - opinion only. I think the Eduard TICONDEROGA (CG-47) set makes a nice supplement to the GMM set. The railings and flight deck nettings, beside being thicker, are drawn with fatter lines than GMM, and I think are not really usable. The strength of the Eduard set lies in a lot of surface detail parts (like applique armor on a Sherman tank, for folks who think in that language) There are a lot of ventilator grills, doors for the sides of the 5" mounts, and antenna fiddly bits (albeit drawn with a heavy hand). Also a nice reflector/ feedhorn for the SPG-51 radars, the frisbee dish with the bipod support for the feedhorn. The showpiece radar antenna, the SPS-49, is quite a bit finer from GMM. If you get it together successfully it will look as delicate as a spiderweb. The flightdeck netting on Eduard is a solid piece, looking more like a railing than a series of net segments. Flagship's netting uses the double-etch technique here and is almost as nice as GMM's. As with FLETCHER PE sets, lots of options for the modeler. Is this a great hobby or what? Thanks, Loren, Rusty & Mr. Eduard. Main mast? Nobody does PE for this, the plastic parts look pretty good in the kit. Keep in mind, the TICO & YORKTOWN were built with four-legged masts and subsequent units have tripod masts. Rick Seattle, WA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: Baker Subject: AFV CLUB PERRYS The ships with hull numbers in the 1100 series are the Taiwanese-built version of the PERRY class. These differ somewhat from the USN version, principally in having single enclosed 40-mm Bofors AA mountings on platforms on the sides of the superstructure at the 01 level amidships (just slightly forward of abreast of the 76-mm gunmout)and also in having the Taiwanese Hsiung Feng-II antiship missiles in two quadruple launcher mountings firing athwartships and mounted between the lattice mast supporting the SPS-49 radar and the mainmast. You could convert these to look like a long-hull USN PERRY, but they are such unique ships that it might be better to build the model as in the box. Seven of the ships have been completed to date, with construction of an eighth just authorized. Taiwanese ship hull numbers never use the locally-unlucky number 4, which is why you find a gap in the numbering series. The local class name for the ships is the PFG-2 class or the Kwang Hua I Program. 1101 is the CHEUNG KUNG, and she was completed in 1993. All were built by China Shipbuilding Corp., Kaohsiung. If you'd like to see photos, may I recommend that you look them up in the Taiwan section of COMBAT FLEETS OF THE WORLD at your local library (and, oh, that a few more libraries would actually purchase copies, but they buy JANE'S in the belief that, because it costs three times as much, it must be better). Best/Dave Baker -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: "Douglas Martin" Subject: H.M.S. Gloucester Ian: A public thanks for the 'video', plus the 'Hood' episode that I must have missed as well. Its a great pity that the RN didn't comment, after all we are talking of a historical incident and nothing much can be gained by hiding any 'truths' at this stage. The survivors account seems a little bit at odds with the 'HMSO Admiralty' version, but I'll need to re-read and watch again to confirm. Official account says Kandahar and Kingston, supported by Fiji and Gloucester went to rescue the Greyhounds crew, and some men were picked up with rafts being left for others. On retiring, Gloucester was hit, Fiji closed and dropped 'all her floats and boats' leaving the crew behind. Fiji was sunk at 1900, with the 2 DDs in attendance, both returning after dark rescuing over 500 crew from Fiji. More reading required, anyhow it was an interesting program. The perils of returning for sunken ships crews could not underestimated, sometimes leading to the loss of the rescuers as well. Douglas -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: Rick Heinbaugh Subject: Re: AFV Club Perry Don Bridge wrote: >> Sorry to be so dim but I have a question about this kit and that is which ships is it supposed to represent and why do Perry kits always come with a Pegasus. The hull numbers supplied are 1101, 1103, 1105, 1106, 1107 & 1108. It does not matter that much as I'm thinking of showing her as HMAS Adelaide, but I can't find any references to these numbers in either Conway or on DANFS. Please don't tell me to go to the Library as there isn't one with this kind of material here in Sarajevo. << Unless I've missed a new kit... The AFV Club kit is ROBERT E PEARY (FF-1073) a KNOX class steam powered frigate, named after the explorer. Of those 46 ships, there are differences in the weapon on the fantail (or its existence), the compactness of thte lattice mast atop the mack, the later bulwarks and strakes around the fo'c'sle and the ECM outfits, among others. The other frigate kit (Skywave, DML, Dragon, etc) is OLIVER HAZARD PERRY (FFG-7), the nameship of the OLIVER HAZARD PERRY class of gas turbine powered guided missile frigates, named for the Commodore at the Battle of Lake Erie. The four digit hull numbers are probably 1052 thru 1097, for members of the KNOX class. FFG-7 kits all have a PEGASUS in them because they are all knock-offs of the original Skywave kit, from the period when Skywave eased the bitter pill of exorbitant prices with a small additional vessel in the box. I dearly love the itty bitty JMSDF minesweeper enclosed in a JMSDF DD kit. When you make HMAS ADELAIDE (Hull Number 01), be sure to use a distinct grey from the US Navy Haze Gray. I don't remember if Australian ships look more greenish or more bluish than US ships, but the difference is easily visible, side by side. There just might be an Australian opinion available on the correct colour of their vessels. Rick Seattle, WA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: Dave Swindell Subject: Re: New Tamiya Yamato kit >> Has anyone built the new re-tooled Yamato? << I've started detailing the hull on mine. >> I saw a review somewheres that wasn't too favorable as regards accuracy. I know the quarterdeck area is quite different than the original kit and it appears different than the drawings in Skulzski's book. Is this kit accurate and worth buying? << The kit parts match my rescaled Skuski drawings qite closely. The only differences I can find on the quarterdeck are the aftmost bollards are in a slightly different position, and there is a bulkhead each side where the boat railways dissappear under the aircraft deck. This is hidden to a certain extent by the deck insert above, would be difficult to correct and hardly noticable when done. The cable reels on the fordeck are in a differnt position. The new model is much better than the old one, which was pretty god and reasonably accurate. There's a lot more detail and a lot more fine detail on the new one, but there's still room for improvement by the superdetailers. I'd recommend GMM's new detail set for this kit, and WEM's IJN doors and hatches, and AA sets. One point I don't like with the kit is the gross planking and chequerplating effect on the maindeck and quarterdeck. Removing the planking isn't too difficult, but removing the chequerplating (which is worse than the planking) is very difficult without damaging the rest of the detail. I'll stick my neck out and say this is the most accurate kit of the Yamato available - go for it! >> Also, how can you tell the difference between the old kit box from the new kit box. << New kit has just Yamato on the top (and is marked C 1998) Old kit has Yamato sailing in company with an aircraft carrier and seaplane carrier. Dave Swindell -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: "Linda & David Orzel" Subject: Paint removal HELP! While moving several boxes of models and paint, some paint in one box got spilled on some models in box below. I know that I read in one of the long past lists a technique for removing paint from a model. (For some reason I think it involved easyoff oven cleaner.) Any suggestions on removing it from both plastic and metal 1/1250 models would be great. Some of these are Netune/Navis and Hai models (very expensive!) and I am just sick. Also, is there an available match for the Neptun grey and deck green for new Jap models? I want to get them back as close to original as I can. Thanks alot. Dave Hi Dave, Yes, Easy off is one option, there's also a paint stripper called Stripakit (SAK), which according to most reports I've read, is outstanding. But since I haven't stripped a kit as of yet, I'll leave it up to the rest of the list to chime in. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 26) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Research comment I've been accused on this list for not doing my research concerning the Close In Weapon system. Research is only as good as the library you have and the money to fund it. One valuable asset of this list is to gather info from people who have a better library than you do. I can tell you right now with two kids in college, my money doesn't go for books to expand my library. I rely on friends (on the net and off) to help me out and fill in the gaps. The info on the CIWS was the best I could come up with considering the limited reference material I had. Not an excuse, just the truth. Once my kids are out of college, my library will be my first priority. Until then, give me a break if I screw up from time to time and don't discourage others from putting in their 2 cents worth. Postings here are like advice, free. If you doubt it, check it out further. Like modeling, if you're chastised or made fun of for participating, would you come back for more? Not complaining. Just an observation. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 27) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Gearing model >> Can anyone recommend any good models of the Gearings? << MB Models makes fine Gearing class destroyer in 1/350 scale. It's a complete kit and includes all the PE you'll need to build a great model. I believe it runs around $120.00. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 28) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: Re: Yamato found. >> Has Ballard or anyone else located the Yamato or Musashi, and how many of the IJN ships have actually been dived upon? << I HAVE the NIP book on the Yamato! Yeah research! In this book you will find a drawing of the Yamato and how she rests on the bottom today. I don't know if diving is allowed on her. I heard a while back that the Japanese government was trying to make the site a national treasure under government control. Rusty White Flagship Models Inc. http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 29) From: Procladius@aol.com Subject: 1/700 Hasegawa Zuiho I noticed the Marco Polo add in Fine Scale Modeler, too. According to the MP website, the Hasegawa 1/700 Zuiho kit will be released in August and priced at $21.98- sounds pretty reasonable. This is a pleasant surprise. I believe that Zuiho and sistership Shoho are the most important WWII IJN combatants not available in injection molded form. This has always seemed a surprising omission, given the more obscure (but interesting!) subjects that have been done in recent years. My hat is off to Hasegawa! Charles Watson -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 30) From: Robert & Rose Brown Subject: IJN wrecks Yamato was located in July/August 1985, by a Japanese expedition I believe, and in the back of Skulski's book is a drawing of the wreck site dated August 1, 1985. The ship is still in one main piece, but is a complete wreck with the stern upside down, midships blown to pieces, and the bow lying on it's side. Ballard dove on Kirishima/Hiei in 1992 and his book The Lost Ships of Guadalcanal has lots of drawings and photos of various wrecks that he found, including HMAS Canberra and USS Barton, Quincy, Laffey among others. Except for Canberra, I'm not really sure how he identified the specific wrecks as lots of similar ships lie scattered within a small area, but what the heck. The usual problems of funding don't allow lots of time at any particular wreck. I always thought that one of his expeditions to Yamato, Musashi, and Shinano would be really interesting, especially if I could wangle a spot on the crew! After all, the search area won't be as daunting as his attempt to find the Akagi and Kaga. PS: So sorry Shane, I should have realized that you were the 'O' class destroyer guy, how's it coming along? Hi Robert, I'm still gathering info & hope to make a start in the next week or so. Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 31) From: Chris Neel Subject: Re: Haguro & Ship names o.k. - here's my two cents worth regarding the "pink" IJN cruiser based on a personal observation..... A couple of weeks ago I finally made a visit to the USS Texas (BB35) at San Jacinto Battlefield near Houston. This is the first time I've seen her since she was overhauled (the last time I had seen her, the main deck was covered in concrete). One of the things that caught my eye was that on the now exposed wooden deck, where between the Deck Blue Stain (or whatever the correct color is) obviously fading after a couple of years in the sun (as compared to areas of the deck which had recently been touched up) and the flaking and worn areas where the natural color of the wood was visible, the main deck has a decidely pink tint to it..... One other thought, my understanding (without doing any serious research into the matter) is that British jeeps used in the Sahara Desert which were painted in a Desert Sand (or whatever color) also tended to fade to a pink color. From this I conclude that it is possible that given paint colors over metal could also fade to an unexpected (and undesirable?) color under certain conditions (especially under tropical or desert sunlight).... This would leave me reluctant to summarily discount any reports of a "pink" Japanese cruiser. However, I don't think I'll go out and buy any neon pink colors to paint my next Japanese cruiser model with..... As far as the naming of ships after famous battlefields, all of the Ticonderoga Class Cruisers currently in service where named after battlefields which dealt with the US directly or with independent states which later became part of the US. Although after a quick glance, I can't say that I'm familiar with all of the names. However, for example, the USS San Jacinto (CG 52) is named after the location where Sam Houston led the Texans to defeat Santa Anna and his Army from Mexico. This victory led to the creation of the Republic of Texas which later joined with the United States. Mobile Bay (CG-53) is famous for where the Union Rear Admiral Farraguat cried "Damn the torpedoes! Full speed ahead!!!" and on to victory.... The one exception would be the USS Thomas S. Gates, named after a former US Secratary of the Navy and Secratary of Defense (now deceased). Did I help or should I duck? later cn -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TRADERS, ANNOUNCEMENTS & NOTICEBOARD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: SHIPMDLR@aol.com Subject: New PE from Flagship New from Flagship Models Inc. is 1/350 US Navy Hatches. The set includes most styles of US Navy hatches. Included are 5'- 6" hatches in two styles, 5'- 0" water tight hatches, miscellaneous deck hatches, 5" turret hatches and topside turret hatches. All parts have raised etched details. If you're interested in this set we will have up to see on our website very soon. Or send for a catalogue and price list. Flagship Models Inc. 2204 Summer Way Lane Edmond, OK 73013 http://www.okclive.com/flagship/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume