Subject: SMML22/05/99VOL553 Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 00:11:44 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: LHA and LHD 2: Re: IJN wrecks 3: Mobile Bay 4: Re: Paint stripping 5: Re: IJN wrecks 6: Re: MK14 gunsight 7: Research vs. building 8: Re: LHA 9: Research & Public Thanks 10: Re: New Tamiya Yamato kit 11: !!!!! NEW 1/350 SCALE PLASTIC KIT !!!!! 12: Pink Panther Cruiser 13: AEGIS CRUISER NAMES 14: Re: New Yamato/IJN Wrecks 15: Re: RN Destroyer photos 16: RE: LHA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Doremus, Mark" Subject: LHA and LHD Tom, Welcome aboard, twice I would guess. First to SMML, I think your post on Thursday was the first I'd seen from you. The second is to that proud fraternity of Navy parents. My son entered Glakes last September and reported to his ship, the USS Nashville LPD-13, last week. I guess as a vet, you at least had some idea about boot camp, it was an alien experience for my wife and I. Now let me display my ignorance about LHA's. Probably what you saw in 'Nam were LPH's. They were converted Essex class carriers, converted escort carriers and purpose built hulls for bringing Marines into shore for assault missions. The last of these were retired in 1998. Currently the Navy operates 3 ship Assault Ready Groups (ARG). These ships carry everything needed to place and support a Marine Expeditionary Group, of about 2,200 onto shore. The lead ship is an LHD/LHA Amphibious Assault Ship, it is nearly 900 ft long and carries a crew of about 1100 and nearly 1800 Marines. These ships resemble straight deck aircraft carriers and are capable of launching AV-8 Harriers, as well as a number of helicopters from their decks. In addition they are capable of launching up to 4 air cushion landing craft (LCAC) from their well deck. The Pelilu is one of this type. The second ship in the ARG is an Amphibious Transport Dock, LPD. These ships run just under 600 ft and carry 400 sailors and 900 Marines. They are capable of launching and recovering most helos and up to 2 LCAC or a number of Amtracks. The last ship is a Dock Landing Ship (LSD). These are slightly smaller than LPD's but perform the same general mission. They carry 400 plus sailors and 400 plus marines. If this isn't enough detail, check out the Navy's Fact File at: http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/factfile/ffiletop.html#ships You are in a small amount of luck, DML and Revell Germany both have Tarawa Class LHA's on the market. Pelilu is a Tarawa Class. I think the DML is 1/700 and the Revell is 1/720. There are a couple of brass sets, one from Rusty at Flagship and Loren should be releasing one next month at GMM. Mark Doremus Eden Prairie, MN -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Norman Samish Subject: Re: IJN wrecks >> I HAVE the NIP book on the Yamato! Yeah research! In this book you will find a drawing of the Yamato and how she rests on the bottom today. I don't know if diving is allowed on her. I heard a while back that the Japanese government was trying to make the site a national treasure under government control. << Rusty, Can you give more details about what you've heard about the present Yamato and Musashi? What book? Has either wreck been found? Where? How deep? Thanks, -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: "Doremus, Mark" Subject: Mobile Bay Shane, You are correct sir! The Mobile Bay is named for a "battlefield" in the American Civil War. As an Aussie, we won't hold you responsible for knowing the time and place of the battle, but as a part time naval historian, you are held accountable for knowing the legend of Admiral Farragut. According to legend, as his fleet steamed/sailed into Mobile Bay, Farragut wanted to climb up in the rigging to watch the attack unfold. Since he suffered from vertigo, he had himself lashed to the rigging. As his two columns of ships entered the bay, one struck an underwater mine, called a torpedo in those days (see where this is heading?). As the ships slowed and turned, Farragut pressed his attack by shouting down from the rigging "Damn the torpedoes! Full speed ahead!" The Union carried the day and closed the port of Mobile to the Confederates. You knew all that, right? Mark Eden Prairie, MN -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: Lisa and Bill Wiseman Subject: Re: Paint stripping Dave, Easy off works but it may be a bit strong for thinner parts. I've found, quite by accident, that "Top Job' or "Spic & Span" liquids work as well without being so caustic. I use a tupperware container, one that my Bride hasn't missed yet, and soak the parts in full strength cleaner, over night. Also works well to remove that awful "chrome" plated nonsense on car models. Doc Wiseman -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: Jonathan Parshall Subject: Re: IJN wrecks >> Yamato was located in July/August 1985, by a Japanese expedition I believe, and in the back of Skulski's book is a drawing of the wreck site dated August 1, 1985. The ship is still in one main piece, but is a complete wreck with the stern upside down, midships blown to pieces, and the bow lying on it's side. << Magazine explosions have a tendency to make a mess of things. I've always been amused by that comic book "Space Battleship Yamato", wherein the wreck of the Yamato is used to make a space ship that rescues Earth, etc. There ain't enough contiguous left of Yamato to make a decent Ford Explorer, let alone a galactic battlecruiser. But whatever. :-) >> Ballard dove on Kirishima/Hiei in 1992 << Note that he wasn't able to positively confirm which ship it was--they sank fairly close together, and we all know that sinking positions can be relatively poorly plotted, plus no one actually saw Hiei go down (her crew having been recovered, and the DDs that did so having left the area before she sank), so her position would be hard to ascertain. ID'ing Hiei and Kirishima would rely largely on superstructure details, which is gonna be tough to do when the wreck in question is turned turtle and has landed on top of the superstructure. Not to mention the damage the wreck had sustained to her forward section from a magazine explosion. Bottom Line: this wreck is *probably* the Kirishima, but that's not confirmed. Hiei would be worth finding, too; she was the Emperor's favorite (he conducted all his fleet reviews from her). >> I always thought that one of his expeditions to Yamato, Musashi, and Shinano would be really interesting, especially if I could wangle a spot on the crew! After all, the search area won't be as daunting as his attempt to find the Akagi and Kaga. << Agreed. Musashi is likely to be in better shape overall than Yamato, although her bow was in a pretty bad way before she went down--Dulin and Garzke cite a "break in sheer" forward of the breakwater in front of Turret #1 (in other words, her bow was beginning to break off.) The Yamato class had very large compartments forward, leading to excessive bow trims when damaged, and the weight of all that water against the non-flooded portions of the bow eventually led to a break in the hull structure. But it hadn't broken off before she sank, and if it were fairly pressure compensated before she sank, then it is possible that it stayed attached. And if she didn't suffer a magazine explosion like her sister, then she may be in fairly decent shape on the bottom. Her general wherabouts are fairly well known (*some of the photos of her under attack clearly show islands in the background--the Sibuyan Sea is a pretty narrow passage). The water, though, is pretty deep here, apparently. Shinano should be largely the same deal--pretty well known position; deep water, and a good shot at a fairly intact wreck. She wasn't carrying nearly the same ordnance load that her battleship sister were, so less to go kaboom. Also, I have heard rumors that the water in Surigao Strait is relatively shallow, meaning that the wrecks of Fuso and Yamashiro (and maybe Mogami) might be divable. Fuso would be a mess, as she broke in two before sinking, and her stern remained under power for some time afterwards, leading to a fairly wide separation of the two wreck halves (2000 yards or so). Yamashiro should be intact, although her position is a little fuzzier. When I was putting together composite course tracks for her (as taken from some of the U.S. gun line's radar plots), her final sinking position varied by as much as a mile and a half. Still, in the grand scheme of things, that's not so bad. [I am pretty up on these two BBs because we are just about to put up an article on their demise on my Web site (which, incidentally, definitively contradicts Skulski's revisionist version of Fuso's demise).] Akagi actually should have been fairly easy to find, had Ballard had any time to do so. (If any of you subscribe to Bill Price's Midway email group, then you already know that this is a topic that makes me really grumpy--why bother looking for U.S.S. Hammann when the flagship of Kido Butai is still out there waiting?). Kaga and Soryu will be harder, and Hiryu would be well-nigh impossible to find, I'd guess, because no one saw her go down. jon parshall Imperial Japanese Navy Homepage http://www.skypoint.com/members/jbp/kaigun.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: ALROSS2@aol.com Subject: Re: MK14 gunsight The material on the MK14 gunsight came from two primary sources: a. Naval Ordnance and Gunnery - NAPERS 16116, MAY 1944 b. Gun Sight MK 14 Mod 2, 3, and 4 Operator's Manual (OD 4429), NOV 42 Both of which are in my collection of reference materials. Al Ross -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: crofoot@bfm.org (Crofoot, Christopher) Subject: Research vs. building I have to agree with the comments that there are room for all types of researchers...I like to build and do some conversion work...I try to get the details right...but then again I have a day job. So I don't plan on spending more time finding out if the A turret starboard hatch opened to the left or right for hinge placement. To those of you who can delve into the details like that I salute you...and I try to use your info whenever possible. This list has already given me tremendous help on my HMS Berwick that I'm working on. But if it isn't perfect...well it IS a model and this IS a hobby. So if research is the thing for some go right ahead I will gladly buy your books and take your advice...but me I like to build. If I don't my wife will beat me for buying all these kits! Chris Crofoot Go Army...Beat Navy -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Mike Leonard" Subject: Re: LHA >> I seem to remember from my 'Nam era service that there were LHAs out in the Tonkin Gulf around us, but am not familar with them at all as to their functions, size, draft, crew, etc. << More likely you are thinking of LPHs. The LHAs were built in the late 1970s to early 1980s. I recall being on liberty in San Diego in 1981 and going into a Coronado hobby shop where I bought a 1/700 Lexington and the shop owner said the LHAs sort of reminded him of it "having a square flight deck and a big superstructure". The Revell LHA kit dates from about the same time because I remember there was one in the lounge at OCS (needless to say it had survived some rough handling). Mike Alexandria, VA USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: Ed Grune Subject: Research & Public Thanks Hello to everyone on SMML I've become a convert on doing one's own research by asking the veterans organizations for information. I've been working on a model of my dad's ship, the USS Oberon. I've been using a few photos from her War Diary which are too small and indistinct. Other details have been applied based on "similar to's" of the Jeremiah O'Brien and the movie "Away All Boats". I recently came across an old notice on the web concerning an Oberon crew reunion. I posted a note to the email address, providing information about my dad and asking a few questions. WOW! have these two guys with the Oberon Association been helpful. They've responded to my questions, offered to send photos {I jumped at the offer :-)}, and have invited me to their reunions -- Hey, I'm family! Thanks you guys! In today's mail I received a package of scans of photos, copies of Navy Times, and other newspaper articles. The best of the lot are two 12x17 photo blow-ups. I wish that the bed of my scanner was big enough to share them with you. The detail is fabulous. The first is one of a rather ratty-looking Oberon entering port, showing the obvious wear of Atlantic cargo duty. The crew is in their whites and the hull number is K56 which would date this photo to the late summer to early fall of 1942. She was commisioned in June1942 as the AK-56. She was in the Mediterranean in October and November for the invasions of North Africa and Morocco. In March 1943 she was redesignated the AKA-14. . The second shows a neatly painted Oberon wearing the hull number KA14. The attached note identifies the location as Norfolk. The crew is dressed in their blues, She's painted two-tone light over dark, which I'd probably call a measure 22. The armament is all there -- two pair of 40 mm twins mounted fore and aft. There's a 5" gun on the fantail and dozen 20mm on the deckhouse. The boats are shown too. The LCVPs are nestled down inside of the LCMs. There's a Southern Railway warehouse in the background along with a coaling facility. There are no other ships in the picture. Now that I have these detailed photos, I'll have to make another Oberon. It will be a pleasure. To all SMMLies, please check the reunion section of the USNI Proceedings, Naval History, the web, or your own country's naval history publication. Contact these people, ask them questions, ask for photos. I've found that they'll be happy to share with you. As was said before, these men have grown old and are passing away. With them pass their memories. That photo album stored away in their attic just doesn't have the same importance as it does to you and me when the time comes for their sons, daughters, and grandchildren to throw these memories into the dumpster. Thanks again to Bob & Lloyd and the Oberon Association. Ed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "Björnm4=" Subject: Re: New Tamiya Yamato kit Hello. You can check out the differences between both Yamatos on this site. It also has a pic of the new box. http://warship.simplenet.com/2yamatos.htm Bjorn Backlund Thanks, Bjorn. - Shane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: SteveWiper@aol.com Subject: !!!!! NEW 1/350 SCALE PLASTIC KIT !!!!! I sure hope this comes true---- A friend (yes, I do have at least one friend) from Texas called me and told me that he had read, in the new 1999 Military Model Distributors-Wholesale Catalog (the parent company of Squadron Mail Order) that a Czech or Russian company, ICM, was planning on a release of two kits of the WWI "Konig" class battleships, SMS Konig and SMS Grosser Kurfurst. This is a plastic injection company. I have seen their release of the Russian tank kit T-35, it was not bad, I liked it. There was no price listed. The release date was "1999". Please start praying now! Steve Wiper -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: SteveWiper@aol.com Subject: Pink Panther Cruiser In all seriousness, this may not have been to far from the truth. We all know that the IJN was running low on all supplies, so their ships were not painted all that often. Maybe the ship was so badly weathered/surface rusted, that she may have appeared pink in a certain light??? Just throwing that idea out there. Steve Wiper -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: Baker Subject: AEGIS CRUISER NAMES Having been involved in the naming of all of the USN and MARAD Ready Reserve Force ships when I worked for SECNAV John Lehman during 1982-87, and also having been in on the somewhat bizarre USN meeting where the decision was made to call the AEGIS ships cruisers rather than destroyers (a faction claimed the ships were too small to be called cruisers, and I was called in to point out that FUNCTION is the determinant for ship typing, not size, and was able to make the admiral who had to make the less-than-momentous decision all warm and fuzzy by pointing out that the Russians had a true cruiser class, the KYNDAs, that were well under 6,000 tons full load displacement), [whew], I might be able to add a couple of tales about the TICONDEROGA names. THOMAS S.GATES was imposed on the USN by political fiat (he had just died and was a tried and true Republican), but Gates was a fine SECNAV, and the name was certainly appropriate. Just before Lehman left office, he named several dozen ships (in fact, some of them were not launched until three or four years after he left office) and invited various ladies (including my wife; it was fun, and I got to make a speech) to sponsor them and break the traditional champagne bottle over their bows, etc. He was not happy with the U.S. Battles name source that had been handed to him by his predecessors, but we tried to pick battle names that had already been borne by noteworthy earlier USN ships. So: ANTIETAM was duly selected, and Congresswoman Byron (a Democrat, but a great supporter of the USN), in whose district lay the Antietam battle site (Civil War, for you Aussies), was asked to be sponsor. Lehman's successor was infuriated; being a Civil War buff and a Southern sympathizer, he was officially mortified that the ship was not called the SHARPSBURG and caused a letter of apology to that effect to go out to the doubtless mystified Mrs. Byron. Long anecdote, but--without getting into detail--people were even known to get into fist-fights over USN ship names in the not too distant past. Sorry to run on so long. Best/Dave Baker P.S. The 40-mm mounts on the Taiwanese edition of the PERRY class are singles, not twins, and the LHAs now have RAM point-defense missile systems (their 127-mm DP mounts were taken off about 2-3 years ago, and the removal of the less-than-effective BPDMS SAM launchers was no loss). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Dboykap@aol.com Subject: Re: New Yamato/IJN Wrecks I happen to agree that the new Yamato by Tamiya is an improvement over the original. The unfavorable review that was cited (available on the Warship site) took issue with several points, but mostly focused on the shape of the new bow as being misshapen and too narrow. In comparing the new Yamato (unbuilt), the original Musashi and Skulski's book, I believe that Skulski and Tamiya have gotten it "right". Viewed from above, Skulski and the new version sport more of a stubbier, narrower, pinched, bottle-nose bow rather than the more gradual, graceful lines of the original which end in a broader prow. The references I am using are two photos that appear in the Skulski book (p.26) taken by the USN during the Leyte Gulf operation. The righthand photo is a clear, unblurred shot from taken directly overhead at low altitude. The Yamato is unobscured by smoke or stack gases. The entire deck view is entirely at hand and, as far as I'm concerned, the bow area clearly shows the pinched bottle-nose effect towards the very front of the bow. To paraphrase Mr. Herne, I don't know how good a researcher I am but, the photo answers my question without reservation. One other IJN wreck worth mentioning is the Nagato. As mentioned by another "SMMLie" a few weeks ago, "Ghost Fleet - The Sunken Ships of Bikini Atoll" by J.P.Delgado, does a fine job of describing the the ships, the preparations, the A-bomb tests, the aftermath, and documents some of the dives recently taken to view these ships. As is well known, the BB Nagato, along with the CL Sakawa, was one of two IJN vessels utilized in the test. While not much seems to remain of the Sakawa, there are some very nice color shots of the Nagato remains. Not to mention most of the principal US ships (Saratoga, Arkansas, etc.) and another war prize, the Prinz Eugen.The text is also quite informative. Dan Kaplan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Tim Stoneman Subject: Re: RN Destroyer photos The following may be of use (without entering the researcher/modeller/modelling researcher/researching modeller controversy): HMS Jaguar - there is an Imperial War Museum photo, showing her in a single-colour scheme (AP507C?? - undated), Connell's 'Mediterranean Maelstrom' shows her in a dark hull/light upperworks scheme (captioned 22 Feb 41) and 'Warship World' Autumn 94 edition has a photo of her in a 2(?) colour geometric scheme (undated). HMS Janus - She appears in an Australian War Memorial photo (available on-line, search engine is at http://www.awm.gov.au/database/photo.asp) in Alexandria in a 2-colour unofficial camouflage in Alexandria (undated), and in 'Mediterranean Maelstrom' in a 2 colour geometric scheme (captioned December 43). HMS Juno - Very shy - never seen a photo of her. HMS Kandahar - A French publication called 'Royal Navy 1939-41' has a shot of her in a dark hull/light upperworks scheme (captioned 19 June 40) and 'Warship World' Summer 91 edition shows her in a 3-colour unofficial camouflage worn by many of the 'K' class (captioned 2 May 41). HMS Khartoum - Very shy - never seen a photo of her. HMS Kimberley - Numerous photos exist, many from a series held by the Imperial War Museum showing her in a 2-colour unofficial scheme, and some in an overall medium or dark grey scheme in 1940. She also wore the 3-colour unofficial camouflage (photos in an early Airfix magazine, and a book on the campaign in Crete). HMS Whirlwind - Look on the 'Warship Photos of Royal Navy A to Z' site (http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/6629/) for a shot of her in overall light grey with a mid-grey band up to upper deck level. HMS Zealous - No photos except the one Chris Langtree mentioned in his response. I suspect that all of the Haguro-sinking team were in Admiralty Standard camouflage (but can't prove it!), and all 5 were fitted with lattice masts at some stage, most, if not all, before deploying to the Far East. The only one I can't confirm was Venus, which was built with a tripod (as was Saumarez) and subsequently fitted with a tall lattice (all the other 'V' class were built with short lattices). The following publications show them in Admiralty Standard colours: HMS Saumerez (usually spelled Saumarez) - Ensign 6 'O-Z Classes'. HMS Venus - 'Sink the Haguro', 'White Ensign Flying'. HMS Verulam - Lenton's 'British Fleet and Escort Destroyers'. HMS Vigilant - Ensign 6 'O-Z Classes', 'Design and Construction of British Warships 39-45 Volume 2'. HMS Virago - 'RN Destroyers since 1945', 'British Pacific Fleet and East Indies Fleet' and 'White Ensign Flying'. A big list of books, I know, and easy for me to say "look in your local library", but the one near me is very good at inter-library loans. Not knowing where the questioner hails from, a visit to the Imperial War Museum's archives should you be in London is worth doing - they're very helpful, but haven't got the collection on-line like the Aussie War Memorial. Tim Stoneman -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "Jean-Cyrille WAAG" Subject: RE: LHA Revell used to have a 1/720 LHA, USS Tarawa, in the 70's. The kit is pretty good but can be updated with Photoetch details. There's currently one on Ebay (just check for item 106184355) Hope this helps Jean-Cyrille -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume