Subject: SMML25/05/99VOL556 Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 23:59:57 +1000 shipmodels@tac.com.au -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS INDEX 1: POW and Repulse 2: Re: Wrecks 3: Re: USS Montana 4: Re: Wrecks 5: Re: Charging for email 6: Re: Charging for email 7: New book 8: Re: Charging for email 9: Really obscure modelling 10: Prince of Wales and Repulse wrecks 11: Re: Anatomy of the ship series 12: Original research 13: 1/192 scale fletcher 14: Re: Sub questions 15: Re: SMML Across America 16: I: search notice about catapult 17: Re: Skywave Oi and Kitakami kits 18: Re: Charging for email 19: Carmine Red 20: H M S Venus 21: Re: Site of HM Ships Prince of Wales & Repulse 22: Re: 1/600 Resin and Photoetch 23: RN Destroyer Photos 24: HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse 25: Re: Wrecks 26: Heller 1/400th & Airfix 1/600th HMS Hood -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MODELLERS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) From: "Dave Pearce" Subject: POW and Repulse According to Martin Middlebrooks book Battleship, if I remember correctly, the Japanese wanted to explore these wrecks but were blocked by the British government. However this book was published some time ago and I don't know if this is still the case. Dave Pearce Burgess Hill -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) From: Jonathan Parshall Subject: Re: Wrecks >> While we're on the subject of wrecks, does anyone know anything about the wrecks of the Prince of Wales and the Repulse? << I know they are both divable--I spoke with a gentleman who dove on Repulse last summer. She is lying on her side and is apparently a very impressive sight and in quite good condition. >> With all due respect, I think they mean that the sheer changes at this point. << Actually, no; it was quite clear from the text that Dulin and Garzke were referring to a developing strucutural failure occurring in the bow as a result of progressive flooding in that area. I will provide the passage if you need me to. jon parshall Imperial Japanese Navy Homepage http://www.skypoint.com/members/jbp/kaigun.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) From: drwells@hogpa.ho.att.com (David R Wells) Subject: Re: USS Montana CBNJBB62@aol.com wrote: >> Yes, I've seen the Montana kit originally it was made in the early 90's. Mike Bartel displayed it at a model contest. It comes very close to the Breyer Book Battleships and Battle cruisers 1905-1970 drawings. Now I have a question is it me or has the plastic industry going from waterline to full hull models? I like water line my self. << It's easier to make a full hull kit into a waterline kit than the other way around! I'm a long-time fan of the Montana class, and I really want to see a full hull model. Of course, I'd want it in 1/500 scale, and that will never happen...... Once of these centuries, I'm going to have to update/correct my wooden Montana models. I did these when I was much younger, and knew much less about modeling..... BTW: Speaking of the FH/WL debate, I'm STILL looking for a lower hull for a DML 1/700 Spruance/Ticonderoga. David R. Wells -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) From: tom Subject: Re: Wrecks >> While we're on the subject of wrecks, does anyone know anything about the wrecks of the Prince of Wales and the Repulse? << Yes, they are fairly shallow, well within the range of advanced scuba. They (like all warships) are war graves and permission has been denied many times to people who wanted to salvage scrap metals from them. Also the site is marked by an ensign flown underwater on a buoyed anchor line. Best regards, Tom Kremer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5) From: "Sheridan, John" Subject: Re: Charging for email >> Another example of Big Brother trying to bilk us and perpetuate that dinosaur, the US Postal Service. Read the following and pass it on to everyone you know:<< >Mercy Snippage< AAARGGHHHHH!!!!! Rusty.....Rusty......Rusty......(shaking head) This is chain letter spam and completely untrue. John Sheridan @ Microscale Decals http://www.microscale.com If I'm talking Decals, then I'm talking for Microscale, Otherwise I am speaking for myself. What I do to Spammers: http://microscale.com/images/N2.jpg I am not a Member of the Lumber Cartel (tinlc) and I am not Unit #631 Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! http://www.cauce.org Support the Ban of Dihydrogen Monoxide! http://www.cis.udel.edu/~way/DMRD/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6) From: tom Subject: Re: Charging for email Ignore this, just another stupid hoax. Please don't pass stuff like this on. Best to keep all chain letters, virus warnings etc. to yourself unless you personally verify. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7) From: "Torgeson Roger A KPWA" Subject: New book I had the chance to look over the Fall 99 Squadron Signal Publications catalogue, only one ship related item coming out. US Light Cruisers in Action by Al Adcock, 50 pages, 100 plus photos, numerous line drawings, WW II and post war conversions. Due out in November. Roger Torgeson -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8) From: "Kenneth H. Goldman" Subject: Re: Charging for email In a way, this also belongs under the previous thread of "DO THE RESEARCH!" The very immediate nature of the Internet makes "current events" type postings inherently suspect. I'm sure Rusty White was only trying to be helpful in his post regarding alleged pending US legislation to allow the US Postal Service to charge for e-mail, however, my initial reaction was that it was the latest installment of a continuing hoax. The US Postal Service is an independent, publicly regulated enterprise that already turns a profit. It receives no government money. The US Postal Service has nothing to do with electronic media. I then checked the official listing of all members of the US House of Representatives, and, guess what?, there is no Tony Schnell listed! By all means, people, remain vigilant, but check the facts first. Ken Goldman THE WALRUS AND THE CARPENTER http://www.wman.com/~khgold/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9) From: "John S. Platt" Subject: Really obscure modelling Good evening SMMLies You all know that I do occasionally ask for information on ships which are not the popular subjects, well I have another one. Apart from lightvessels and Minesweepers I have a third interest, offshore radio stations or to use their more popular name pirate radio stations. We her in the UK were surrounded by them in 1960's usually they used converted cargo ships (or minesweepers!). I think that the USA had a couple of stations. New Zealand had one and Israel has 3 at the moment. So may question is......do any of you out there have any pictures or plans of these wonderful ships sitting in a dusty cupboard? To all of those who responded to my earlier request for information on the Admirable Class minesweepers........ a big thank you all. I know have a set of plans on the way, a card model template and some photographs. It just shows you what this list can do for you when you need it. Does anybody have a good recipe for Yorkshire Pudding?...no forget that. Best wishes. John S. Platt. Brasted, Kent, UK (Sun, sun and more sun but its above the clouds and I can not see it) P.S. To add to the thread on research. I thought it was all about having fun and being pleased with yourself. If it starts arguments it's not worth it. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: Prince of Wales and Repulse wrecks Alan There's a very detailed description of them in Martin Middlebrook and Patrick Mahoney's Battleship - The loss of the Prince of Wales and the Repulse. This even gives the exact locations and condition of the wrecks. This book is well worth obtaining for its account of the whole affair. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11) From: "chenyangzhang" Subject: Re: Anatomy of the ship series Bob I'll have a go The Battlecruiser Hood by John Roberts The Aircraft Carrier Intrepid by John Roberts The Aircraft Carrier Victorious by Ross Watton The Type VII U-Boat by David Westwood The Destroyer Escort England by Al Ross The Fairmile 'D' Motor Torpedo Boat by John Lambert The Cruiser Belfast by Ross Watton The 74-Gun Ship Bellona by Brian Lavery The Submarine Alliance by John Lambert and David Hill The Battleship Warspite by Ross Watton The 100-Gun Ship Victory by John McKay The Cruiser Bartolomeo Colleoni by Franco and Valerio Gay The Frigate Diana by David White The 20-Gun Ship Blandford by Peter Goodwin The Destroyer The Sullivans by Al Ross The Battleship Yamato by Janusz Skulski The Colonial Merchantman Susan Constant 1605 by Brian Lavery The Armed Transport Bounty by John McKay The Royal Yacht Caroline by Sergio Bellabarba and Giorgio Osculati The Bomb Vessel Granado 1742 by Peter Goodwin The Cunard Liner Queen Mary by Ross Watton The Destroyer Cambletown by Al Ross The Type XXI U-Boat by Fritz Kohl and Eberhard Rossler The 24-Gun Frigate Pandora 1779 by John McKay and Ron Coleman The Ships of Christopher Columbus by Xavier Pastor The Battleship Dreadnought by John Roberts The Flower Class Corvette Agassiz by John McKay and John Harland The Escort Carrier Gambier Bay by Al Ross The Schooner Bertha L Downs by Basil Greenhill and Sam Manning Captain Cook's Endeavour by Karl Heinz Marquardt The Heavy Cruiser Takao by Janusz Skulski The Four-Masted Barque Lawhill by Captian Kenneth Edwards, Roderick Anderson and Richard Cookson HMS Beagle by Karl Heinz Marquardt The 32-Gun Frigate Essex 1799 by Portia Takakjian The Battleship Fuso by Janusz Skulski There may be others but good hunting as some of these are long out of print. Chris Langtree -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12) From: "Robert Lockie" Subject: Original research I was interested to read Marc Flake's posting, as his feelings were close to mine when the 'original research' thread started. I am all in favour of original research, and have indulged in a fair amount of it in my other area of interest, the world of the tankie, in which I have been active for 20 years or so. I got into naval matters only a few years ago and rather quickly made the disturbing discovery that most of the decent books to which everyone referred were either out of print, unobtainable or extortionately expensive. Clearly, those who had had the good sense to acquire them when published recognised their value and were hanging onto them. Fortunately, the situation is apparently being corrected now, with a variety of knowledgeable individuals committing their findings to print in recent years and in the forthcoming months. I will be buying most of those which interest me, although I will certainly be interested to read any informed criticism of them before I do so, as I am no expert (that's why I buy the books) - I do not intend to be caught out again. Given that I have a very busy time earning a living that enables me to support model manufacturers and publishers, it is not as easy as I might like to spend many hours engaging in original research. This does not mean that I do not value it, but if I can effectively pay someone else who has forgotten more about the subject in question than I am ever likely to know to write a book about it, I will happily pay them to do so. I have no ambition to be regarded as an expert researcher but neither do I wish to 'throw together a model' and to hell with the accuracy. That, and time (again) is probably why so many of my models are as yet unfinished. In 1997, I spent over 600 Pounds Sterling to visit the USS Kidd in Baton Rouge (and someone else paid for me to fly across the Atlantic) and the only Fletcher models on which I am working are in 1/700 (although I am drawing up a quad 40mm mount in a larger scale), so when the opportunity presents itself, I do go out and measure things. I have asked questions of SMML and also answered some (albeit from my mainly secondary source library and sometimes with embarrassing errors...), and found the forum very worthwhile. It is very encouraging that SMMLies are so prepared to share their knowledge, even where some of the questions have cropped up before. I have never felt a desire to 'catch anyone out' as that seems a wholly unproductive way to proceed. However, I too would be concerned if others (like Marc, and I) gained the impression, however unintended, that to post references to secondary source material was to invite ridicule from those more knowledgeable. It seems to me that as long as references are cited, it gives everyone the chance to either accept or reject the data on the basis of what other information they may have to hand. If we are not careful, we will find ourselves criticising those who lack the time, information, inclination or even eyesight to scratchbuild all their models from home-grown trees and mix their own paint from raw chemicals (we went through all this in the AFV modelling world a few years ago, about what is a 'proper modeller', and it was a pretty unproductive exercise). Anyway, I would appeal to anyone who has anything that they think might be of interest to SMMLies to 'post and be damned', but remember to cite sources so that others can follow up. And please, where you have the opportunity, take the advice to undertake original research while the sources still exist, and share the information whether it be via SMML, magazines or a book. Sorry about the long and boring post but at least there is a PgDn key... Robert Lockie Cambridge UK Digging in for return fire -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13) From: The Codes Subject: 1/192 scale fletcher Hello fellow shipmodelers, I an thinking of puchasing a hull and or kit of a round bridge fletcher in 1/192 scale..I know that bluejackets makes a basswood kit in this scale with white metal fittings, I also know that hulls can be found in this scale and cast risin guns..I'm having a hard time deciding which route to go..I've built several kits and done several modifacations to kits but this would be as near to scratch building as Ive come so far. I will have the help of a seasoned scratch builder to point me in the right direction..any comments would be welcome, Fair winds Bill code -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14) From: Ives100@aol.com Subject: Re: Sub questions Gees, I live for these sub questions ....... >> The Film version depicted a Gato class. The TV series version was what appeared to be a Balao class. (Probably a soundstage mock up.) << If, as posted by another SMML member it was Batfish (SS 310) used for the movie, then it was a Balao. Anything with a number above 286, with the exception of some boats from Manitowoc shipyard with numbers in the 360's, were Balaos. >> Question for all you "Sub Guys". Side rails on Gato class boats: two rail or three rail? My rather grainy photos show both types on different boats, is that possible? << Very definitely possible. I've never noticed a three bar in any of my reference photos, but I've seen single bar solid (pipe) railings, double bar (pipe) railings, and most commonly, poles with wire railings(single and double). As with many aspects fo WWII fleet submarines, fittings varied with sub and time period. BTW, the railings were rigged only when in port. All of the loose railings, etc. were removed when on war patrol. >> In his other book, _WAR IN THE BOATS_, chronicling his wartime service in submarines, Ruhe recounts how one of the officers on CREVALLE developed a homemade camo scheme that Ruhe had the crew paint while at sea on patrol, consisting of black stripes over the existing overall gray. No detailed description, but there's one for somebody to apply to a model.... << Here's one for you. I'm currently (finally!) finishing up a commission job to do the Balao class submarine USS Blenny in her final WWII configuration. Involved heavy chop job on the Lionfish (This predated the release of the Nautilus Models conning towers). Anyhow, I have to paint short pink (Yes, PINK!!) stripes at various 45 degree angles on her otherwise light gray periscope shears. I was given a videotape made from a 16mm movie camera film that the crew (illegally) carried and used to make color movies of Blenny's wartime adventures. Plainly shows the light pink stripes in several of the movie shots. Lots of homemade experiments on WWII Fleet boats. At least one, Dick O'Kane's Tang, had a crow's nest up in the shears.... Tom Dougherty Visit the SubCommittee at: http:/www.wolfsong.com/SubCommittee/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15) From: Bruce Burden Subject: Re: SMML Across America >> At Chicago, I visited the Musuem of Science and Industry on the shores of Lake Michigan, where the U-505 resides. If you are planning on seeing the submarine, and are interested in her external appearence, you should contact the museum ahead of time as the courtyard where she is located is no longer open to the public. << Bummer! Last time I was at the museum, they had recently opened the cafe in the naval wing, with the courtyard. From there you could wander out and around U-505 and the locos parked nearby. It always annoyed me that you could see the inside of U-505, but never get close to the exterior. Probably closed things down because some fool fell off one of the locomotives... Bruce -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16) From: "vito-r" Subject: I: search notice about catapult Hi To Everybody People! I'm Vito, and I'm Italian. I desired to Have Information On the Structure And The Operation Of the Catapults For Airplanes In the Battleships Of the Second World War. Where I can Retrieve Sketches, Squirts, Books Etc. Thanks In advance For The help That you will Want to Give me. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17) From: "Douglas Martin" Subject: Re: Skywave Oi and Kitakami kits Daniel: The kits W46, Oi and W47, Kitakami are identical in build of parts and content. There are differences in the box art, with Oi by Y.Takani and Kitakami by M.Yoshihara, where different interpretations of the ships are apparent. The Instructions are almost identical, with Kitakami having an additional deck plan. The decals are marginally different, not that I would bother using the white lettering. The ship histories are different from paragraph 2 onwards. Its a pity there were no 'options' to depict them as High Speed Transports or Kaiten carriers, which I'm sure were available on the 'sea' diorama included in the old Tamiya 1970 kit boxes - that appeared to show each IJN warship including the mysteriously unavailable Mikuma....... Now, I quote: 'According to the recent theory the TT mounts were not shielded as molded in the kit. However, Mr Tatsu Abe, who was a 'Kitakami' crew, advised that they were shielded'. Therefore you can use the E-10 part 20s (4 in a box, 5 boxes at zillions of Yen......) To misquote 'I know, because I've got the kits......no comments please, yes they are still unbuilt... Douglas (Scotland) Nice of our Japanese friends to stamp the prices in Yen as part of the box art, I was dashed unlucky when the £ did something silly in the exchange rate stakes though...... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18) From: John Philip Downing Subject: Re: Charging for email Frankly, I think this is a good idea if it would put the spam generators out of business. Perhaps everyone should be allowed a certain number of "free" messages before the tax sets in. John Downing -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19) From: William Aldorfer Subject: Carmine Red In correspondence dated 17 February 1982, Dieter Jung compared the carmine red of the Baltic identification scheme to the "...red-lilac of Schwaneberger colour guide, or Germany 2,50 Mk. of march, 1920, Michel-no. 115e..." The stamp to which Dr. Jung refers is available in the price range of $1.00 - $2.00, depending upon it's condition. One source in the Rocky Mountain region is Mr. Jan Whitinger of All Nations Coin & Stamp. He can be reached at 2318 S Colorado Blvd, Denver, CO 80222 (303)757-2797 (jan@stampstore.com). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20) From: Vimieraa@aol.com Subject: H M S Venus I negleted to mention that the data for the previous note came from "particulars of H M ships" and photos. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21) From: Sanartjam@aol.com Subject: Re: Site of HM Ships Prince of Wales & Repulse Hi SMML, The Prince of Wales and Repulse lie off the east coast of Malaysia in fairly shallow water (less than 200 ft.) The PoW is a bit deeper than the Repulse, enough to make a difference to scuba divers. The Royal Navy conducted dives on the ships in 1965-66, and there have been other dives since, one of which was in 1989, but not I'm not aware of when the most recent one was conducted. With some regularity, the Royal Navy attaches the White Ensign to the propeller shafts of the ships, which are considered war graves. At least in 1989, the Repulse's superstructure and guns could be seen as she was on her side, but the PoW was more hull-up (a la the Kirishima when Ballard found her). Art Nicholson -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22) From: Sanartjam@aol.com Subject: Re: 1/600 Resin and Photoetch Hi, It's good to hear that WE is going to do a photoetch set for the 1/600 Ark Royal; a great subject! As for other subjects for 1/600 resin parts, I think boats would be a very good idea and would help out most Airfix 1/600 kits. How about resin 20mm guns with etched shields? Anyway, keep up the good work! Art Nicholson -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 23) From: Robert & Rose Brown Subject: RN Destroyer Photos Hi there: I would just like to thank everyone who responded with photos and descriptions of the RN destroyers I inquired about. To Tim Stoneman, I have a copy of the Ensign O-Z, but none of the others that you mention. Your descriptions are great and will do nicely, unless you happen to have any scanned images? I'm on the west coast of Canada so if anyone happens to pop by the IWM and can acquire copies that would certainly be appreciated, not to mention saving me $600 CDN (about $10.50 US) in airfare! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24) From: Robert & Rose Brown Subject: HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse The positions of both wrecks are well known and both lie upside down on the bottom. The damage to POW's port propellor shaft that led to her sinking is quite evident apparently. I have an article from a dive magazine that describes a dive on Prince of Wales if anyone is interested (no pictures though, and I'd have to find it). The RN attaches an ensign periodically to the propellor shafts of the wrecks (a photo is in Middlebrook and Mahoney's Battleship (an excellent book on the disaster)). I also read recently somewheres that someone has nicked the propellors off both wrecks, a big no-no with HM government but next to impossible to track down who it was, a pox on them (the salvors, not the government). An interesting point is that the main armament is still attached, something which fell out of Bismarck when she capsized (any ideas anyone?) As an aside, the RAN also regularly dives on the wreck of HMAS Perth and also attaches an ensign, so I'm told.....hopefully her propellors are still intact.... Another aside relates to Ballard's search for Akagi, Kaga, etc. From what I can figure out from the National Geographic article, he didn't use his trusted search method of real-time video used to locate Titanic, but instead used side-scan sonar, a search method he once rejected, and which results in lots of potential targets, all requiring lowering a video camera to have a peek, which takes many hours at those kind of depths. Budget problems? All that effort and time and only a few photos of Yorktown to show for it? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 25) From: "Simon Wolff" Subject: Re: Wrecks >> While we're on the subject of wrecks, does anyone know anything about the wrecks of the Prince of Wales and the Repulse? << Some years ago ABC(AUST) TV did a documentary called 'Battleship, Battleship' about a guy who was infatuated with the POW and Repulse (gee why didn't I record that doco). Infatuated to the point of selling his home to fund an expedition to dive on the wrecks (I think he lost his marriage in the process). Anyway they showed the footage he shot and it showed both ships sitting on the bottom (okay so where else would they sit?) looking in pretty good nick. Both are war grave sights also the footage showed the RN ensign flying from the ships. Boy there are a couple of 'dead ships' I should model.. along with a lot of others! Simon Wolff -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 26) From: "Katz, Gene S" Subject: Heller 1/400th & Airfix 1/600th HMS Hood Howdy, Am I wrong or did I read/hear that Heller was coming out with a 1/400th of the "Mighty 'ood" this Spring? Any comments on the Airfix 1/600th Hood yet? Gene -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Volume